The Outcast

[SonOfMogh]

Seems to me as long as the actor paying the genderless alien was made to look as neutral as possible, what would be the benefit of casting a man? Given the script called for someone who was slightly more female than male casting a female seems to make more sense. Also it's a lot kinder to Frakes considering he's straight.

I'm all for there being more diversity in Trek, and they should absolutely have found an opportunity to show that it's a non issue in the future, but I think it's a stretch to shoehorn a gay kiss for a straight actor into an episode where he is specifically attracted to someone who identifies as female.

 

[Mytran]

Given the script called for someone who was slightly more female than male casting a female seems to make more sense. Also it's a lot kinder to Frakes considering he's straight.

That's an odd thing to say, given that Frakes was up for the part of Soren being played by a male actor (rather than playing it safe with a female). Star Trek is supposed to be progressive and push boundaries, right?

Anyway, it's not like he was being asked to passionately make out with some random dude for a bet: He's an actor and as such understands that screen kissing is about the least erotic forms of lip to lip contact you can engage in! It's a job, not a lifestyle choice.

 

[kirkfan]

Given the script called for someone who was slightly more female than male casting a female seems to make more sense. Also it's a lot kinder to Frakes considering he's straight.

That's an odd thing to say, given that Frakes was up for the part of Soren being played by a male actor (rather than playing it safe with a female). Star Trek is supposed to be progressive and push boundaries, right?

Anyway, it's not like he was being asked to passionately make out with some random dude for a bet: He's an actor and as such understands that screen kissing is about the least erotic forms of lip to lip contact you can engage in! It's a job, not a lifestyle choice.

True, this has nothing to do with being kind. The best thing that could be asked of an actor especially a good one or one that aspires to be, is to play a wide range of characters.

Actors have played Hitler, I don't believe they took it as people being unkind to them.

 

[SonOfMogh]

Each to his own. If I was an actor I would have no issue playing hitler, but would prefer to kiss a female co star than a male one. It clearly wouldn't have been an issue for frakes based on the previous post so it's a moot point anyway. The main point of my post was that the character identified as female and therefore of the available options to play that part a female perhaps made more sense overall.

 

[kirkfan]

Each to his own. If I was an actor I would have no issue playing hitler, but would prefer to kiss a female co star than a male one. It clearly wouldn't have been an issue for frakes based on the previous post so it's a moot point anyway. The main point of my post was that the character identified as female and therefore of the available options to play that part a female perhaps made more sense overall.

It could take longer to learn how to speak German with an Austrian accent than how to fake a kiss, though.

 

[borgboy]

Each to his own. If I was an actor I would have no issue playing hitler, but would prefer to kiss a female co star than a male one. It clearly wouldn't have been an issue for frakes based on the previous post so it's a moot point anyway. The main point of my post was that the character identified as female and therefore of the available options to play that part a female perhaps made more sense overall.

I don't think casting a male or female actor should be based in any way on their screen partner's orientation. It's acting, not a dating service. With that logic should the new movies have cast a male love interest for Spock since Quinto is gay?

Casting a female actor to play a female identifying gender neutral alien was a safe choice and doesn't present the gender identity issue as strongly as an androgynous or feminine male actor would have.

 

[kirkfan]

Each to his own. If I was an actor I would have no issue playing hitler, but would prefer to kiss a female co star than a male one. It clearly wouldn't have been an issue for frakes based on the previous post so it's a moot point anyway. The main point of my post was that the character identified as female and therefore of the available options to play that part a female perhaps made more sense overall.

I don't think casting a male or female actor should be based in any way on their screen partner's orientation. It's acting, not a dating service. With that logic should the new movies have cast a male love interest for Spock since Quinto is gay?

Casting a female actor to play a female identifying gender neutral alien was a safe choice and doesn't present the gender identity issue as strongly as an androgynous or feminine male actor would have.

Acting consists in playing someone different. For a long time, the roles of Chinese people and Indians (from India), Native Americans, were almost all played by Caucasians, yet people rarely say anything about it. Why should it be any different for males playing females, or vice versa?

 

[Makarov]

I have no doubt Frakes could pull off with a male love interest but handing him a female actress for a romance is like handing some Shakespeare to Patrick Stewart. A pretty safe bet that there's not going to be any problems during production.

 

[kirkfan]

I have no doubt Frakes could pull off with a male love interest but handing him a female actress for a romance is like handing some Shakespeare to Patrick Stewart. A pretty safe bet that there's not going to be any problems during production.

Did you know that back in Shakespeare time. Males often played the roles of females. This was due to the fact that it was considered almost as bad for a woman to be an actress as to be a prostitute back then. So there weren't many to be found.

Shakespeare often employed boys in female clothing.

 

[WillsBabe]

I've just read this whole thread and think this has been an interesting discussion. I think it would have been interesting to have a Janii as a main character on the crew. Don't know what they could have done with it, but I think it might have been interesting. A fan author called Juanita Danizak who is no longer with us wrote a great fan piece called It Didn't Take. I really enjoyed it, about the impact on Riker and Soren's life after the episode when the treatment didn't work and she reverted back to wanting a female gender.

 

[kirkfan]

I think it's rather clumsy from the writers that from the episode alone, it's impossible to tell if there is any restriction on sexual activity at all, or if the interdict is strictly limited to labels, IE you can have regular coitus, you just can't call it that way.

 

[Tosk]

The J'naii don't tolerate gender being a factor in sexual activity. Any other restrictions they may or may not have aren't relevant to the episode.

 

[borgboy]

I don't get the vibe that gender was an issue just with sexuality, but in all aspects of life. There's a lot more to gender than just sex.
It is hard to get a feel for exactly what gender expressions are being outlawed by the J'naii. Two people could have a relationship as long as they don't identify as a gender. How would anyone even know? What about two J'naii that identify as the same gender?

 

[T'Girl]

What about two J'naii that identify as the same gender?

That just it, they're not supposedly going to identify with either gender, it a social and legal taboo.

 

[kirkfan]

I don't get the vibe that gender was an issue just with sexuality, but in all aspects of life. There's a lot more to gender than just sex.
It is hard to get a feel for exactly what gender expressions are being outlawed by the J'naii. Two people could have a relationship as long as they don't identify as a gender. How would anyone even know? What about two J'naii that identify as the same gender?

That's exactly that. From the episode, it's impossible to know what is the nature of their "prejudice" or even if there is one.

That's the problem when people make up stuff without thinking it through, they end up with absurdities.

For instance, what is the physicality of it? Do they all have both organs? Do they have one organ but are forbidden to mention which one?

We don't know any of that and yet it's ESSENTIAL!!

I hate sloppiness.

 

[borgboy]

I get the vague impression they don't have traditional sex organs at all. They were genderless not hermaphroditic (like Burgoyne from New Frontier).
There definitely is prejudice from what Soran tells us, I just don't quite get what it means for a J'naii to have gender. What are their forms of gender behavior? Soran didn't seem all that different from the other J'naii we saw.
We do know that the J'naii used to have gender and they saw people who identified as gendered as being throwbacks, less evolved.

 

[T'Girl]

a society that doesn't discriminate bewteen genders is technically as well practically more free than one that does

And if that where it stopped, you would have been right.

If one isn't free to be *any* gender, let alone a specific one, that's also discrimination.

Correct, by prohibiting the populace from choosing a gender expression (should they wish to), the government and the society was practicing repression and discrimination.

Actually NO. Their laws against gender discrimination are akin to laws against apartheid.

Except their laws encode and enforce discrimination based upon gender. It compels social conformity.

Any laws can be perceived as a loss of freedom

No, not "any law."

... but the freedom of killing someone without being prosecuted for example is one that I could do without.

Where I live, a private citizen can employ deadly force to protect themselves from an attacker "if there is a reasonable expectation of bodily harm." While there would be a police investigation, a prosecution would not be a given.

Their solution has been to outlaw gender discrimination, by defining it as a kind of racism.

I think more likely the way it started was a elimination of traditional gender roles within their society, which then morphed into making gender invisible in the public square. They then made individual gender identity illegal, the populace was cowed, children were indoctrinated in the school, the end result is what we saw.

You may disagree with that solution but it isn't worse than the problem it is solving.

Being equally bad, isn't better.

The story doesn't make much sense ...

Actually it does, however unlike many Trek stories this one does require analysis and thought.

Good luck trying to find a single allusion in the franchise to homosexuality that isn't associated with being evil.

Agree.

 

[kirkfan]

I get the vague impression they don't have traditional sex organs at all. They were genderless not hermaphroditic (like Burgoyne from New Frontier).
There definitely is prejudice from what Soran tells us, I just don't quite get what it means for a J'naii to have gender. What are their forms of gender behavior? Soran didn't seem all that different from the other J'naii we saw.
We do know that the J'naii used to have gender and they saw people who identified as gendered as being throwbacks, less evolved.

We don't even know how they reproduce. Can they ALL carry babies? Or only some of them? What do they do to reproduce? Do they have heterosexual sex (as we know it) or some other thing?

We don't know any of that.

It's the same situation when the Monks made up a New Kahless with his clone and implanted memories. There were tons of questions that he was unable to answer even though HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.


Here the writers made up a bad clone of an imaginary society and implanted it with faulty memories.

 

[T'Girl]

We don't even know how they reproduce.

From dialog it sounds like they basically "lay eggs," either like chickens or like salmon.

 

[kirkfan]

We don't even know how they reproduce.

From dialog it sounds like they basically "lay eggs," either like chickens or like salmon.

Do they have to swim upstream?