THE ORVILLE Season Two...

[sttngfan1701d]

No, it's not quite the same thing but it's still firmly in the grey area. It gets more muddled after the point where the phone is put in the time capsule. After that, the computer program would be simulating and extrapolating everything, since the phone's information stops being added to. It already extrapolated a fair bit, but it would take over completely then.

I don't know. I'd tell him to go for it, personally. But that's me. It's an interesting ethical question to ponder in any case.

 

[The Wormhole]

It gets more muddled after the point where the phone is put in the time capsule. After that, the computer program would be simulating and extrapolating everything, since the phone's information stops being added to. It already extrapolated a fair bit, but it would take over completely then.

Everything we see was from before the phone went into the time capsule. Gordon even says after he learned his girlfriend got back together with her ex that he went through the phone and it was all there.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

I just finished season 2, and it was fine. Upon reflecting on both seasons, I've definitely appreciated the cast, the chemistry, etc. At first, the show really feels like a nice little homage to Trek. Then the realization set in: it's not simply nostalgia with nods to old Trek episodes - it's that Braga really has had almost no new ideas in the last couple of decades. Had Trek continued uninterrupted under his leadership, it would've been nothing more than rehashed plotlines that created the franchise fatigue that we're only now recovering from.

In every single Orville episode, it's unbelievably easy to see which Trek episodes it's taken from, almost as if there's a jar of Trek plotlines that Braga picks from, splices together and re-brands. That said, I still desire the best of success for both The Orville and new Trek in a "both/and" kind of way, rather than "either/or." There's plenty of room for both.

 

[Mudd]

it's that Braga really has had almost no new ideas in the last couple of decades. Had Trek continued uninterrupted under his leadership.

And Braga is not driving this bus. Try again.

There's a lot more novelty to what they're doing on this show than on STD.

 

[The Wormhole]

I just finished season 2, and it was fine. Upon reflecting on both seasons, I've definitely appreciated the cast, the chemistry, etc. At first, the show really feels like a nice little homage to Trek. Then the realization set in: it's not simply nostalgia with nods to old Trek episodes - it's that Braga really has had almost no new ideas in the last couple of decades. Had Trek continued uninterrupted under his leadership, it would've been nothing more than rehashed plotlines that created the franchise fatigue that we're only now recovering from.

In every single Orville episode, it's unbelievably easy to see which Trek episodes it's taken from, almost as if there's a jar of Trek plotlines that Braga picks from, splices together and re-brands. That said, I still desire the best of success for both The Orville and new Trek in a "both/and" kind of way, rather than "either/or." There's plenty of room for both.

1) As stated above, Braga isn't running this show.
2) His "leadership of Trek" only covers seasons 5 and 6 of Voyager and the first three seasons of Enterprise.

 

[Mudd]

And, of course, he was never the only or primary generator of story premises for any show.

This line of criticism's entire angle of attack is based on a lack of understanding of who does what on shows and how they're made.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

And yet the fact remains: The Orville is a collection of rehashed Trek episodes. Not my definition of original or novel, but it's fine if you think otherwise. However, since the big networks aren't going to put TNG, DS9 or any other '90s Trek back into prime time, it's a case of "old made new" for the viewers by means of The Orville, as well as a hefty dose of nostalgia/deja vu for Trek lovers. There's a reason the episodes worked 20 years ago, and it doesn't take much to make them work again. That said, I do appreciate the efforts of the cast and other folks who make it stand out and have gotten it multiple seasons.

 

[Mudd]

And yet the fact

The phrase you want is " my opinion."

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Nope. One can easily go episode-by-episode and identify what Trek episodes they were borrowed from. But keep thinking it's totally original for argument's sake, and argument's sake alone.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Saying "Star Trek did it first" is like saying "The Simpsons did it first". Trek is on its sixth show (seventh, counting TAS), a total of 754 episodes, plus 13 movies, 4 Short Trek episodes, novels, comic books, audio dramas, and there's hardly any scifi concept left that they haven't covered. Hell, Trek itself has been retreading previously covered ground since "Charlie X" dealt with similar themes as "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Where any new SF show can get out of Trek's shadow is approach. And "The Orville" has a very distinct approach, that really is fairly original and novel.

 

[tomalak301]

Discovery is hardly original. It's doing everything it can to pander to the original series audience, even going as far as promoting Pike, Spock and The Enterprise rather than anything actually having to do with Discovery. To knock a show like The Orville for taking on Trek themes is disingenuous at best.

 

[JD]

And, of course, he was never the only or primary generator of story premises for any show.

This line of criticism's entire angle of attack is based on a lack of understanding of who does what on shows and how they're made.

From some of the more recent interviews and things I've seen, it actually seems like a lot of the stuff that people complain also came from the studio or network higher ups not just Braga and/or Berman.

 

[The Wormhole]

From some of the more recent interviews and things I've seen, it actually seems like a lot of the stuff that people complain also came from the studio or network higher ups not just Braga and/or Berman.

Yep. Voyager's constant use of the reset button and lack of ongoing story arcs were mandated by UPN who didn't want anything more involved than the occasional two-part episode. And even that they tried to avoid outside of season cliffhangers, as evidenced by the increase of two-hour event episodes as the series went on.

Also, it was in fact Braga who stood up to UPN and said "fuck no!" when they wanted Enterprise to have a boy band who would break out into random musical number each episode.

 

[Phoenix219]

I just finished season 2, and it was fine. Upon reflecting on both seasons, I've definitely appreciated the cast, the chemistry, etc. At first, the show really feels like a nice little homage to Trek. Then the realization set in: it's not simply nostalgia with nods to old Trek episodes - it's that Braga really has had almost no new ideas in the last couple of decades. Had Trek continued uninterrupted under his leadership, it would've been nothing more than rehashed plotlines that created the franchise fatigue that we're only now recovering from.

In every single Orville episode, it's unbelievably easy to see which Trek episodes it's taken from, almost as if there's a jar of Trek plotlines that Braga picks from, splices together and re-brands. That said, I still desire the best of success for both The Orville and new Trek in a "both/and" kind of way, rather than "either/or." There's plenty of room for both.

Its Manatee's with idea balls! It works for all Seth's shows!

 

[fireproof78]

Discovery is hardly original. It's doing everything it can to pander to the original series audience, even going as far as promoting Pike, Spock and The Enterprise rather than anything actually having to do with Discovery. To knock a show like The Orville for taking on Trek themes is disingenuous at best.

And it doesn't need to be. To me it is far more of an expansion of know material, vs. wholesale reverence for the past.

I think both Orville and DSC are doing this in different ways, if not wholly original, in my opinion.

 

[tomalak301]

And it doesn't need to be. To me it is far more of an expansion of know material, vs. wholesale reverence for the past.

I think both Orville and DSC are doing this in different ways, if not wholly original, in my opinion.

That's fine. Heck, my favorite episode in season 2 was If Memory Serves because they took the very first episode of Star Trek and did an excellent job expanding it. I just don't like the criticism leveled at something like The Orville as being not original when even in episode 1 they pretty much said that it was a homage to Trek. That was basically my point. To point out that The Orville is not original isn't really a fair criticism.

 

[fireproof78]

That's fine. Heck, my favorite episode in season 2 was If Memory Serves because they took the very first episode of Star Trek and did an excellent job expanding it. I just don't like the criticism leveled at something like The Orville as being not original when even in episode 1 they pretty much said that it was a homage to Trek. That was basically my point. To point out that The Orville is not original isn't really a fair criticism.

I'll be blunt and say in the comparison between the two is never fair.

 

[tomalak301]

I'll be blunt and say in the comparison between the two is never fair.

I agree.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I've grown to appreciate the Orville after initially disliking it. The humor in the first half dozen or so episodes was just a little off-putting for me. Upon re-watching the pilot, I found it to be a pretty clever sci-fi story and love the concept of the giant flash-grown oak tree destroying the enemy ship. But, upon my first watch, all I could take away from it was the opening scene with the blue alien and the blue forehead splatter ejaculating all over the place. In fact, the episode in which blue alien returned, was the only episode I skipped.

I think the two best episodes were the final two episodes of season one, when the ship discovered the two-dimensional plane, and the Church of Kelly episode.

I agree with those that say that the storytelling seems to almost always closely resemble a previous Trek episode. At least, to my eyes. But "Star Trek homage" is built into the show's DNA, so I can't really hold that against it.

At any rate, I'm glad that they're getting a third season. With the abbreviated episode count (compared to BermaTrek), it really took two seasons for the universe to really fully establish itself. I look forward to seeing where it goes.

 

[Qonundrum]

Nope. One can easily go episode-by-episode and identify what Trek episodes they were borrowed from. But keep thinking it's totally original for argument's sake, and argument's sake alone.

Oh good grief. The same blanket statement can be made for every stinking TV show or movie ever made. Every sci-fi franchise borrows. It's the quality and differential of the innovation, and not pandering fanservice, that is key. Orville time and again has taken new directions and left turns out of nowhere. DSC, for example, flings fanservice every step of the way - as well as coopting and claiming it's doing the same characters before TOS. If a series deserves to be shamed for its heavyhanded copping, it's DSC. Otherwise you'd not bother with any Borg story since all they are is a shameless ripoff of Doctor Who's Cybermen, no? Well, actually - among other things - it can be claimed the Cybermen were a ripoff of the Avengers' Cybernauts - which isn't possible since Cybernauts are 100% robots that are in control by some human that I believe they turn on. See the Cylons for more on that... Or, perhaps, Frankenstein - a madman invents a creature cobbled up from organic parts. Clearly, the point goes right back to the efficacy of the innovation applied, assuming any innovation exists to begin with and Orville has proven it.

I just finished season 2, and it was fine. Upon reflecting on both seasons, I've definitely appreciated the cast, the chemistry, etc. At first, the show really feels like a nice little homage to Trek. Then the realization set in: it's not simply nostalgia with nods to old Trek episodes - it's that Braga really has had almost no new ideas in the last couple of decades. Had Trek continued uninterrupted under his leadership, it would've been nothing more than rehashed plotlines that created the franchise fatigue that we're only now recovering from.

In every single Orville episode, it's unbelievably easy to see which Trek episodes it's taken from, almost as if there's a jar of Trek plotlines that Braga picks from, splices together and re-brands. That said, I still desire the best of success for both The Orville and new Trek in a "both/and" kind of way, rather than "either/or." There's plenty of room for both.

Yes, Orville was inspired by TNG. That lamentable cell phone episode is a glaring example of (the few times) Orville sleepscripting with inane filler fodder, so lazy and glossing over the technobabble was barely the start of what is the worst of the season by far, even better than the Bortus-must-go-peepee episode (clearly a spoof of a certain TOS episode involving a different bodily function for similar bodily organs)... But by and large, the Orville has taken innovations and new concepts that 90s Trek clearly did not do - like going to the planet with the hefty gravity and actually showing it off and the dangers in being there.

Yes, Orville was inspired by TNG. Most new sci-fi is influenced by old sci-fi at some juncture. But having rewatched "Pria", "New Dimensions", and "Into the Fold" again, since season 1 overall feels fresher and less soap opera-like than season 2, I fail to recognize the conclusions you had discovered and I've seen each episode of season 1 at least three times now. While I agree Star Trek is an influence, there are clearly differences in plot content and execution between both franchises that prove and negate the claim that Orville is soulless spliced rehash. and as Braga wrote (and superbly directed) "Into the Fold", there is no way it can be compared to any form of Star Trek unless a qualifier is the word "stunned" featured in both episodes (which is a ludicrous comparison). Orville is clearly making new directions that are often unexpected, it is not digging up the same old plotlines verbatim - which is far closer applicable to "Star Trek The Motion Picture" and "Star Trek Insurrection".

And to be honest, had TNG done the kid shtick in season 1 the way the potty episode (Jaloja) had for its kid subplot, TNG would have started a lot more strongly out of the gate than a quagmire of dirty old man fantasies that would make even MacFarlane himself blush in embarrassment.

If you want to see what is clearly out of ideas, try sitting through "Star Trek Nemesis" which shamelessly cops, templates, and apes the plot of "Star Trek II" and directly lifts dialogue from II (and III) in the process. Thankfully Braga didn't work on that one (but people lump his name into that one anyway). Orville has not templated anything, much less cheaply rip off dialogue. Star Trek Nemesis onward, as well as a certain Star Wars movie from a few years ago, clearly had. Or TMP since everyone was harping at the time it's a mash-up of a couple TOS episodes, with INS being a mashup of various TNG tropes (which were so hackneyed and rushed with nothing more than empty shock jock reveals, something that no Orville season 1 episode begins to even remotely compare to).

Up next: The eternal damnation of Blake's 7 because Avon is nothing more than a ripoff of Spock and then lambasting Red Dwarf because Kryten is clearly a ripoff of Spock and Data. (In reality, the "creepy robot guy" routine is not new. How the trope is built upon is. There are so many plot tropes and Shakespare nailed most of them centuries ago anyway... there must be other reasons why all of us aren't bashing everyone ever since Willy himself... and it's all about the innovation and taking different directions that actually work.)

Discovery is hardly original. It's doing everything it can to pander to the original series audience, even going as far as promoting Pike, Spock and The Enterprise rather than anything actually having to do with Discovery. To knock a show like The Orville for taking on Trek themes is disingenuous at best.

Seconded, especially when Orville took radically different directions time and again. If it was the same, you'd know I'd be railing on it to no end instead of finding a date.

DSC has taken characters time and again and used its prequel status to try to retcon the show's own chronology, co-opting established characters (like Harry Mudd) as form of pandering to reel in older fans in hopes waving a name about is all that's needed. That's far worse. DSC also took gimmcks like "the mirror universe" and did the same thing, with no depth. "Mirror Mirror" was a tad overrated, the DS9 mirror episodes were atrocious (IMHO), but every new use of the mirror universe is increasingly cringe inducing so DSC gets some credit - oddly - for continuing that trend, even if trying to make it look like they're the ones that came up with the magical new place. Worse, making Spock be a mass murderer of his numerous shrinks was so off-putting, I didn't give much of a damn about finding out how they'd explain it. Apparently it's all "sealed orders", which is something of a cop-out as well. At least it's comparatively original to the use sci-fi trope of "alien mind influence", but that might have been preferable than to lampshade it all. Nobody could really believe the USS DISCO (ugh, the show is so bad they even camped up their own diminutive on screen, but given they're a crew of coked up fry cook teenagers, it's not surprising) was a Section 31 ship either.