The Original Trilogy Constructive Criticism Thread

[LJones41]

More or less. Leia seemed to defer to Rieekan on tactical matters, but he seemed to defer to her when it came to strategic matters. Which makes sense: he's in charge of the troops and the base itself while she's in charge of what's actually done with it. She's the political leader. Or the next closest thing to one an insurgency can have.

The military leader deals with tactical matters, while the political leader deals with strategy? Huh? Rieekan should have dealt with both strategic and tactical matters for the troops, considering that he is one of the Rebel Alliance's military leaders.

And what about Leia's activities as a military commando or spy? She's doing that as well? I'm sorry, but I still believe that her character was badly handled.

 

[Reverend]

I'm sorry, but I still believe that her character was badly handled.

OK, but I wasn't arguing in favour of that point. Quite the contrary. But then how lopsided her role was in the latter two movies has little to nothing to do with what her role in the rebellion was.
Indeed, none of the main characters had a massively well defined role. Han is given respect and authority but no responsibilities. Luke is given a squadron to command, goes AWOL and just saunters back in and joins possibly *the* most sensitive mission of the Endor offensive with nary a word said.
None of which matters, because that's not what the story was about. They're adventure movies, not military procedural dramas.

 

[fireproof78]

The military leader deals with tactical matters, while the political leader deals with strategy? Huh? Rieekan should have dealt with both strategic and tactical matters for the troops, considering that he is one of the Rebel Alliance's military leaders.

And what about Leia's activities as a military commando or spy? She's doing that as well? I'm sorry, but I still believe that her character was badly handled.

Despite the look, the Rebels are not a fully formed military unit. Lucas envisioned them to be much like the VietCong in the Vietnam War (or a romanticized concept of it) in which there was both regular military ranks as well as guerilla forces. So, it's a lot of cells that are formed together to make a bigger alliance. So, both Rieekan and Leia have a say in the matter.

I'm not saying that Leia was handled well-far from it, especially when looking at Rey or Padme. But, given the lack of resources the Rebels had, as well as being on the run after ANH, I would not expect a smooth operation.

 

[LJones41]

OK, but I wasn't arguing in favour of that point. Quite the contrary. But then how lopsided her role was in the latter two movies has little to nothing to do with what her role in the rebellion was.

How is it that the lopsided nature of Leia's role in the 1980 and 1983 movies have nothing to do with her role in the rebellion? Her role in the rebellion is part of the story.

But, given the lack of resources the Rebels had, as well as being on the run after ANH, I would not expect a smooth operation.

The Rebel Alliance had enough resources to face off against the Empire and maintain military bases.

 

[Ithekro]

"The Rebels are too well equipped. They are more dangerous than you realize". ~General Tagge.

 

[fireproof78]

The Rebel Alliance had enough resources to face off against the Empire and maintain military bases.

Resources are not the question-organization is. The Rebels were often forced to limit their attacks to secret strikes, and then flee after a major offensive. The Yavin base is immediately evacuated after the Death Star is destroyed, and the forces on Hoth are overwhelmed fairly quickly, and are only able to hold of the Imperial forces long enough for evacuation, but are hardly able to go toe-to-toe for any length of time. The Rebels have more power starships, but less of them, which means that the loss of an X-wing is more of a setback to the Rebels than the loss of a Tie fighter to the Empire.

The Rebels have enough resources to maintain some bases, but they could not hold out against Imperial aggression. Indeed, it was only the addition of the Mon Calamari starships that made the Battle of Endor possible. Even then, the Rebels did not expect the Imperial fleet to be there. So, still striking out from secret locations.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I always enjoyed the discussion of Rebel tactics in the "Rebel Alliance Sourcebook" produced a million years ago by West End Games.
It stated that the Rebels practiced a principal of "space denial" by striking in as many places as possible and preventing the Imperials from gathering enough forces to crush the Rebellion in a decisive manner.
For example, the Mon Cal homeworld contained a large shipyard facility that built (or remodeled) Mon Cal cruisers for battle. The Empire knew about the facility, but was never able to free up enough resources to destroy it decisively, especially as Vader had requisitioned Death Squadron for his own private pursuit of his son.

 

[Reverend]

^That's even backed up in both Empire & Jedi, both indicating that the Imperial forces are spread across the galaxy in a vain attempt to engage the Rebels directly or discover their hidden bases.
The Rebels seemed to combat this by breaking into smaller groups and always staying on the move. Bases like Hoth and Yavin were only ever temporary set-ups, ready to be abandoned at a moment's notice. Indeed, that they'd already abandoned the Dantooine base despite it going undiscovered by the Empire could mean they made a point never to get comfortable and stay in one place for too long.

It's classic asymmetrical guerrilla warfare. A smaller force is quick and mobile, it can hit soft spots and harass an enemy which is itself so big and cumbersome that by the time they can bring serious force to bare, their attackers have already faded away and another group is already hitting somewhere else.

 

[LJones41]

That still doesn't explain why the Hoth base had a genuine military leader and a politician who had no business giving military orders sharing command.

 

[fireproof78]

Because it was a new base, likely with different Rebel cells coming together. The organization was probably still being established.

 

[Kor]

I used the term "Liaison" to try and be a little more clear. Clearly she had some relationship with the Ewoks since they apparently had a human sized dress for her and appropriate hair decorations.

Maybe those were left over from the last human or near-human that they ate.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe those were left over from the last human or near-human that they ate.

Kor

Good point.

 

[Ithekro]

The Towani family left most of their posessions behind I think the remains of their ship. Only Cindel was taken off world, and I doubt she'd think to take all her mother's clothing with her. It was the same tribe, so perhaps that was one of Catarine Towani's outfits.

 

[LJones41]

Because it was a new base, likely with different Rebel cells coming together. The organization was probably still being established.

I'm sorry, but that's not a good excuse to me.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sorry, but that's not a good excuse to me.

Ok. Well, general research indicates that General Rieekan was the base's commander, so not sure how else to present it. Leia might be deferring to the General as the military commander.

The structure is not exactly made clear by on screen events, and interactions, so to each their own interpretations, I suppose.

 

[Reverend]

I'm sorry, but that's not a good excuse to me.

You seem to persist in your misapprehension that the Rebel Alliance was a regular military outfit with a strict hierarchy. You must disabuse yourself of this notion because it most assuredly was not.

Most don't realise it, but most of the individual senators we saw in the prequels didn't just represent their particular home planet, but by proxy an entire sector of space with dozens if not hundreds of systems. Bail and by extension Leia didn't just represent Alderaan but a whole swath of less wealthy/populous/influential planets in their vicinity. The Alliance is not a monolithic organisation but a conglomeration of many of these different groups, as such a political leader must be at least in on, if not actually making all strategic decisions.

To simplify it: Leia made the decision to evacuate in consultation with Rieekan. Rieekan's duty was to then command his troops and resources in accordance with that decision by mounting the defence to buy time for the transports and their escorts. They must both co-operate in order to effectively lead their particular rebel cell. If one or both gets dictatorial it all falls apart because neither has the moral authority on their own.
Indeed, since their forces are volunteers who can leave pretty much any damn time they please, they effectively command only with the consent of those under them. This is how leadership in a democracy is supposed to work.

 

[LJones41]

Why can't anyone consider the possibility that the idea of showing Leia sharing military command with a genuine military leader may have been a mistake? It doesn't make sense. She was never really in Padme's position in which she was the only one forced to come up with a military strategy to deal with the enemy.

To simplify it: Leia made the decision to evacuate in consultation with Rieekan. Rieekan's duty was to then command his troops and resources in accordance with that decision by mounting the defence to buy time for the transports and their escorts. They must both co-operate in order to effectively lead their particular rebel cell. If one or both gets dictatorial it all falls apart because neither has the moral authority on their own.

No. Leia should have never taken that decision. It was not her decision to make. She was a political leader, not a military leader. Even the first "PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN" movie had the good sense to realize that in a military situation - namely Barbossa's attack on Port Royal - Commander Norrington was the one in command and that Governor Swann had no real say in the matter when it came to defending the town and the island.


How many excuses am I going to hear about Luke's questionable Jedi training, post-"EMPIRE STRIKES BACK"?

 

[Reverend]

'Pirates of the Caribbean'? *That's* your touchstone in all this?

Anyway, you're forgetting that Leia was raised as royalty and was an Imperial senator. That means she's been trained in tactics, strategy and how to command. Unlike Naboo, Alderaan's monarchy is hereditary, not elected and if it's anything like our Royal Family then just about everyone in or near the line of succession is expected to train for and serve in the armed forces in some capacity. Rest assured she is more than qualified.

Leia isn't a fairy-tale princess stuck up a tower, she's a lot more like a real one.

 

[Ithekro]

In the more recent Star Wars: Rebels, it shows Leia was working as a planner and operative several years before the Battle of Yavin. While under her father's cover as a member or aide for the Imperial Senate, Leia was planning operations to aid resistance cells at age 16. The plan to get her own ships stolen so that Alderaan could remain blameless was hers. The inspiration to get the plan going again even when things seemed hopeless was hers.

After the loss of Alderaan, Leia likely became the leader of Bail's group of Rebel cells. The war was now fully on and she had no planet to be a politician over and the senate was disbanded. She was the leader of the former Alderaan-supplied Rebel cells now. The only person she would actually need to answer to is Mon Mothma. General Rieekan is in charge of the base. Leia is in charge of the unit, so she'd be the regional general, while Rieekan is the base commander.

However, Princess Leia is one of those that has to be doing something. So while Rieekan is in charge of the base and is leading the defense of said base, Leia is in charge of the evacuation of said base. She's the one giving orders to the fighter pilots that will be escorting the transports off Hoth. She's overseeing the evacuation and gives the order to send two transports at a time. When Han comes in after the Command Center has been hit, She's dispatching orders for troops to help cover the remaining evacuation forces now that the shield generator is gone. Her last order is to sound the final retreat and evacuate their remaining forces. That is where she is in command. The base has fallen, so her duty is to evacuate the remains of her regional cell command, troops, and as much equipment as they can.

We don't see her doing this later, because she's cut off from her cell by being on the Falcon.

The rescue operation for Han Solo is a core cell operation. The Heroes of Yavin are going after one of their own while keeping the risk of other Alliance cells to a minimum. They could have attempted a military operation, but that would have drawn Imperial attention even on Tattooine. Having a Jedi helps with these sorts of operations, based on what they use to do before the Clone Wars.

With the Alliance gathered, Leia's command defaults to Mon Mothma as overall commander-in-chief. The operation had been planned already, and Leia's command skills were unneeded in a fleet action, nor did she have a base of operations that was vital to the operation. What the Alliance needed was ships and Starfighters for the Death Star, and an elite team for the ground mission. So she was able to volunteer for General Solo's shuttle command team. Leia had long ago proven she's a good shot with a blaster and adapts fairly well to the situation. Also pretty much unbreakable to torture if captured. Also the Heroes of Yavin have worked as a good team for several years at this point. If nothing else, that would be a morale booster for the Alliance ranks to know they are the ones on the job of taking down the shield around the Death Star II.

 

[fireproof78]

Why can't anyone consider the possibility that the idea of showing Leia sharing military command with a genuine military leader may have been a mistake? It doesn't make sense. She was never really in Padme's position in which she was the only one forced to come up with a military strategy to deal with the enemy.

No. Leia should have never taken that decision. It was not her decision to make. She was a political leader, not a military leader. Even the first "PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN" movie had the good sense to realize that in a military situation - namely Barbossa's attack on Port Royal - Commander Norrington was the one in command and that Governor Swann had no real say in the matter when it came to defending the town and the island.


How many excuses am I going to hear about Luke's questionable Jedi training, post-"EMPIRE STRIKES BACK"?

You do realize that the modern American military is ostensibly under civilian control and oversight? Usually by political leaders who are being advised by their flag officers regarding the situation. And no, not just the president, but each branch of the military is overseen by a civilian leader.

In a military situation, the chain of command is still the chain of command. Which means if Leia was in the chain, then she gets to command. We don't know if it was or was not her decision to make, since the leadership of Echo Base is not firmly established, as we see both Leia and General Rieekan giving orders.

The Rebel Alliance, as others have argued in more depth, is not a traditional military or political operation. So, trying to put it in a nice, neat, box of what it should be is not going to be simple.

Also, Luke's Jedi "training" makes more sense in the ESB novel than any of the films.