The Original Trilogy Constructive Criticism Thread

[Reverend]

Yeah, the whole point of the Ewoks is that they were underestimated and yet overcame a vastly superior force, mostly by exploiting that underestimation with ambushes and knowing their own territory better than the invaders.

Also, Star Wars is and always was first and foremost for kids and I haven't met a kid Star Wars fan that didn't love the Ewoks.

The earlier version of this idea from one of the "Luke Starkiller" drafts was actually much less credible. It had the (stone age tech) Wookies being taught how to fly starfighters in a very short span. And people think the idea of Ewoks taking down walkers with logs is unlikely!

 

[fireproof78]

I think I saw that movie. Wasn't it called "Battlefield: Earth?"

Also, GL was heavily influenced by the Vietnam War and the concept of a much smaller force taking on a big empire. In addition to all the "Dune" references as well.

 

[LJones41]

She does react but it is brief. I think I once heard it described as a very difficult reaction to direct, since how do you react to your whole world being blown up? Not that it excuses it, but it sheds light on the process.

I think @Reverend as a good point that she was not really able to process those emotions at that time.

As for OT criticism, Luke's training always bothered me, at least as far as time frame. Obviously, we don't know how much time passed but it just felt like Yoda was trying to get him through, but then Luke rushes off. Once he comes back, Yoda says he doesn't need any more training.

It feels very rushed to me.

Exactly when did the movie show her reacting to Alderaan's destruction? I do recall her reacting to Tarkin's decision to destroy the planet. But I don't recall seeing any reaction from Leia in the aftermath.

I think Lucas made a mistake here by solely focusing on Luke's grief over Obi-Wan's death. I understand that Luke was the premier of the three leads. But Leia had witness the destruction of her planet and the deaths of her adoptive family. Surely, Lucas could have spared the audiences a look at how she was dealing with it in private before meeting Luke for the first time.

I also agree that Luke's Jedi training was rushed. Worse, no one helped him finished his training. He did so by a handbook?

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly when did the movie show her reacting to Alderaan's destruction? I do recall her reacting to Tarkin's decision to destroy the planet. But I don't recall seeing any reaction from Leia in the aftermath.

I think Lucas made a mistake here by solely focusing on Luke's grief over Obi-Wan's death. I understand that Luke was the premier of the three leads. But Leia had witness the destruction of her planet and the deaths of her adoptive family. Surely, Lucas could have spared the audiences a look at how she was dealing with it in private before meeting Luke for the first time.

I also agree that Luke's Jedi training was rushed. Worse, no one helped him finished his training. He did so by a handbook?

It's brief but Leia's reaction is there right before the laser is fired, she tenses:

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As for Luke's training, well, by the OT the Jedi Code had become more like guidelines

 

[Reverend]

And right after that scene she was thrown back in the brig, then sentenced to death. That's either going to completely freak someone out or have an oddly calming effect on them. Judging by her reaction to Luke barging into her cell--who for all she knew was the person come to take her to her execution--she had gone the calm route. But then she hears the words "Ben Kenobi" and she's off and running and doesn't stop until Yavin IV.

 

[Ithekro]

See loses her put on upper class accent.

 

[Gaith]

- I don't like Leia's "walking carpet" line. It can easily be cut.

- I don't like the fact that Leia guesses the Falcon is being tracked, but takes the plans straight to the Yavin base anyway. What if they hadn't been able to come up with an attack plan by the time the Death Star got there? This, too, can be cut.

- In the Death Star attack, the first trench run can be cut to increase the tension. The longer the battle goes on, the less fearsome the Imperial forces seen.

- I don't like the return to Tatooine in RotJ. Having Jabba be somewhere else and new would have been better, but if we had to go back there, at least give us a short scene in which Luke visits his own home and reflects on how much has changed. Also, the whole "rescue Han" subplot takes up way too much running time. It's padding, plain and simple.

- I think Vader's death is significantly improved by not having him speak once the helmet is off:

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- I don't like seeing the three Force ghosts at the end. Not only does Anakin not deserve to be there smiling, their appearance overshadows what should be the living heroes' big sendoff:

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[fireproof78]

- I don't like Leia's "walking carpet" line. It can easily be cut.

- I don't like the fact that Leia guesses the Falcon is being tracked, but takes the plans straight to the Yavin base anyway. What if they hadn't been able to come up with an attack plan by the time the Death Star got there? This, too, can be cut.

Why? Where would you have them go?

- In the Death Star attack, the first trench run can be cut to increase the tension. The longer the battle goes on, the less fearsome the Imperial forces seen.

Might have been nice to have the Gold Squad run, and the the Red Squad split by the Imperial forces, forcing Luke to make the trench run without coverage. However, the net effect is the same, and given the fact that the Trench Run is Dam Busters in space, it works pretty dam good.

- I don't like the return to Tatooine in RotJ. Having Jabba be somewhere else and new would have been better, but if we had to go back there, at least give us a short scene in which Luke visits his own home and reflects on how much has changed. Also, the whole "rescue Han" subplot takes up way too much running time. It's padding, plain and simple.

I am always surprised by how much run time it takes up, but I don't see it as "padding" as much as serialized story telling. We just happened to get two adventures for the price of one in ROTJ

- I think Vader's death is significantly improved by not having him speak once the helmet is off:

But, then, if that happens, does Anakin Skywalker really return?

- I don't like seeing the three Force ghosts at the end. Not only does Anakin not deserve to be there smiling, their appearance overshadows what should be the living heroes' big sendoff:

But, why leave those loose ends? Why not have the happy ending showing that Anakin is at peace with the Force, especially in light of the PT?

 

[Gaith]

Why? Where would you have them go?

In-universe, to a nearby crowded spaceport, where they could ditch the Falcon, disappear in the crowd, link up with Rebel compadres discreetly, and head to Yavin without endangering the whole damn base on the off chance that a) the Death Star has a fatal flaw the ships there can attack at all, and b) they can identify it in time to plan and execute an attack. Leading the Death Star to Yavin without reasonable certainty of both those factors being true was extremely unwise.

We just happened to get two adventures for the price of one in ROTJ

An adventure which, it must be noted, makes no damn sense at all. Which, to me, is the very definition of "padding".

But, then, if that happens, does Anakin Skywalker really return?
[...] Why not have the happy ending showing that Anakin is at peace with the Force, especially in light of the PT?

I loathe the PT, and don't give a single damn about Anakin. I give a damn about Vader, and Vader's story ends when he turns on the Emperor, getting mortally wounded in the process. Luke lighting his pyre is the perfect coda to that story, and the appearance of Anakin's Force ghost not only spoils the perfection of that moment, it mars what should be our actual heroes' sendoff. (You know, the ones not guilty of countless murders and planetary genocide.)

 

[fireproof78]

In-universe, to a nearby crowded spaceport, where they could ditch the Falcon, disappear in the crowd, link up with Rebel compadres discreetly, and head to Yavin without endangering the whole damn base on the off chance that a) the Death Star has a fatal flaw the ships there can attack at all, and b) they can identify it in time to plan and execute an attack. Leading the Death Star to Yavin without reasonable certainty of both those factors being true was extremely unwise.

On this point, I do agree. Personally, I think that would have been a more interesting film.

An adventure which, it must be noted, makes no damn sense at all. Which, to me, is the very definition of "padding".

I think How it Should Have Ended illustrated this concept perfectly that it makes no sense. But, I don't see that as padding, but that's just me. If we are going to call out needlessly complicated plans as "padding" then I think most comic books, comic book films, a lot of Star Trek episodes all fall under that definition.

At least Luke's plan is fun.

I loathe the PT, and don't give a single damn about Anakin. I give a damn about Vader, and Vader's story ends when he turns on the Emperor, getting mortally wounded in the process. Luke lighting his pyre is the perfect coda to that story, and the appearance of Anakin's Force ghost not only spoils the perfection of that moment, it mars what should be our actual heroes' sendoff. (You know, the ones not guilty of countless murders and planetary genocide.)

I don't care about Anakin, and the PT is certainly not something I will defend. However, I still don't see it as taking away from the heroes' victory just because Anakin Skywalker gets a minor send off.

 

[Reverend]

Ignoring for a second the fact that Han would never abandon the Falcon; *if* they had ditched the ship at some spaceport, somehow made a connection with an Alliance agent and got other transportation to the Yavin system, the Empire would have probably caught up with them. Even if they got away first, the planet would have almost certainly have been destroyed. Surely Leia would know that and want to avoid it at all costs. By allowing the Empire to track them to Yavin IV, she makes sure they're the only target the Empire is going after.

Also, from a story telling perspective, when you're heading into the third act you really don't need such pointless dillydallying. It'd kill the pace of the movie and to no great profit. Indeed it'd amount to a net loss since you loose the ticking clock tension of the station closing on the Rebel base.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Brother/Sister kiss... otherwise the OT was just about perfect.

 

[Orac]

The original movie is perfect IMO, the only changes that need to be done are undoing all the changes Lucas already made.

 

[Gaith]

Even if they got away first, the planet would have almost certainly have been destroyed.

Huh? Why would they know to attack Yavin if not for the tracking device? Did Leia let its name slip during her interrogation?

Also, from a story telling perspective, when you're heading into the third act you really don't need such pointless dillydallying. It'd kill the pace of the movie and to no great profit. Indeed it'd amount to a net loss since you loose the ticking clock tension of the station closing on the Rebel base.

Right, which is why I suggest simply trimming Leia's deduction of the tracking device in the first place. On the one hand, it shows how smart she is and that's terrific, but on the other hand, for reasons I described above, unless I'm incompletely remembering, and Yavin was in the Imperial crosshairs anyway, her decision to lead them right there was insanely foolhardy.

 

[Ithekro]

If they went someplace else....anyplace else, the Death Star likely would blow up that planet for harboring Rebels....regardless if it was true of not. So while going straight to Yavin IV puts the Rebels at risk, it keeps the Empire from blowing up another inhabited system like Alderaan. Leia never metioned the planet's name they were going.

She only mentioned Dantooine which had an abandoned Rebel base.

So Yavin might be safe, if Leia can get the plans off whatever world they ditched the Falcon on, but that world will die. That's not an acceptable risk after Alderaan. And going to an Imperial planet is likely suicide at this point.

 

[Reverend]

Huh? Why would they know to attack Yavin if not for the tracking device? Did Leia let its name slip during her interrogation?

That's not at all what I said. I was referring to whatever planet they diverted to first in this proposed scenario.

Right, which is why I suggest simply trimming Leia's deduction of the tracking device in the first place. On the one hand, it shows how smart she is and that's terrific, but on the other hand, for reasons I described above, unless I'm incompletely remembering, and Yavin was in the Imperial crosshairs anyway, her decision to lead them right there was insanely foolhardy.

So you're saying she *shouldn't* interpret the halfhearted pursuit of half a dozen TIEs as opposed to the Star Destroyer and potentially *thousands* of fighters they could have sent after them as an obvious move to let them go and track them to their base? That'd just make her look stupid and also not account for how the Empire found said base. All you'd end up doing is replace they "they're tracking us" and the "this is an awful risk Vader" scenes with a "they don't suspect we're tracking them" and a "how did they find us!?" scene. The latter option adds nothing to the story.

 

[Gaith]

the Star Destroyer and potentially *thousands* of fighters they could have sent after them

You mean the thousands of fighters they deployed when the attack actually happened?

Oh, wait, that didn't hap-

 

[Ithekro]

A one-man fighter was not considered a threat. Darth Vader thought differently though and launched his own squadron to intercept. Tarkin was informed that there was a danger based on the pattern of the Rebel's attack, but felt their chances were slim verses him needing maybe ten more minutes to blow up the Rebel base.

 

[Reverend]

A one-man fighter was not considered a threat. Darth Vader thought differently though and launched his own squadron to intercept. Tarkin was informed that there was a danger based on the pattern of the Rebel's attack, but felt their chances were slim verses him needing maybe ten more minutes to blow up the Rebel base.

Exactly. At that point the two squadrons of fighters were just being a nuisance because the surface defences were geared towards capital ships and they were doing some damage. Swarming those thirty ships with thousands of TIEs would have been overkill and frankly, more of a danger to each other than the rebels. So instead what they did was launch just a few squadrons to deal with them. Only when Gold 1, 2 & 5 broke off from the main group did Vader grab two pilots and go out himself.

And yeah, it's worth keeping in mind that the whole engagement took about 10 minutes total. In that time the surface defences and a handful of TIEs reduced a force of 30 to just 3. I'd say the Imperials were justified in their confidence. Indeed, had Luke *and* Han & Chewie not been there, Vader would have more than likely succeeded in finishing them all off mere seconds later.

 

[Mr Light]

Most of my O.T. complaints stem from Lucas' decision to abruptly wrap up the entire story in a single movie rather than four more.

--The Death Star. AGAIN? If you were going to use it twice, don't blow it up the first time, just disable it and it takes a couple years to get it working again.
--Hmm, we establish Luke has a sister in ESB. But we're down to one movie now. And we only have one female character. Let's just make her the sister. What? She was his romantic interest in the first two movies? Err...
--We'll have a big final battle in a volcano pit on Coruscant, while dealing with Wookie slave workers on Coruscant's moon! It'll be epic! Well, lava would be tough to do. And teddy bears sell better. Even if it makes no sense these tiny fuzzy cutie pies can take out 'the best legions' of the Empire.
--We'll do an entire movie revolving around chasing down Boba Fett and rescuing Han! He's an epic villain! Oh, wait, we're wrapping it all up in one movie? Okay, he doesn't do anything, someone hits his rocket pack by accident, and he falls in a pit. Lolz.