The Original Trilogy Constructive Criticism Thread

[Marten]

I am always surprised by how much run time it takes up, but I don't see it as "padding" as much as serialized story telling. We just happened to get two adventures for the price of one in ROTJ

As I've gotten older, my opinion of RoTJ has fallen considerably, especially concering the script. It's mostly people making stupid decisions on both sides, with some strokes of luck leading to a victory for the rebels in the end. And the rescue on Tatoiine is the most grevious one. It's insanly poorly though out. There are at least five times were a rational Jabba could have thwarted to plan easily. Also, it takes up a lot of time, which I guess would have been more bearable if it made sense as a plot point.

 

[LJones41]

As I've gotten older, my opinion of RoTJ has fallen considerably, especially concering the script. It's mostly people making stupid decisions on both sides, with some strokes of luck leading to a victory for the rebels in the end. And the rescue on Tatoiine is the most grevious one. It's insanly poorly though out. There are at least five times were a rational Jabba could have thwarted to plan easily. Also, it takes up a lot of time, which I guess would have been more bearable if it made sense as a plot point.

It's interesting. "Return of the Jedi" used to be my favorite of the 1977-83 movies when I was a kid. Now, it's my least favorite. In fact, it used to be my least favorite of the entire movie franchise, until "The Force Awakens". But I still love it, despite its flaws.

 

[fireproof78]

ROTJ is still my second favorite, tied with TFA and behind SW.

 

[Reverend]

Personally I've never been of a mind to rank them by preference. I like them all to greater or lesser degrees because they're all great (yes, including the prequels) and they're all flawed (yes, including Empire.)

 

[fireproof78]

I think the overall story is great and full of ups and downs. I just rate them as far as which ones I'm likely to actually watch, rather than sit there and just remember.

 

[Reverend]

I've gone though different phases of which ones I'd like to re-watch. Sometimes I favour the OT, sometimes the prequels. I recently did a re-watch of all 7 over the course of a few days while listening to a series of synced podcast commentaries and it opened my eyes to a lot of things about all of them I hadn't considered.

I'm not surprised that I hadn't thought of every aspect of the prequels since I've always found them problematic (thought not for the reasons you might think), but it's quite something that I can still be surprised and discover new facets of the OT after decades of watching them I don't know how many times. Must be in the triple digits by though.

I still don't rank them since I think of all three as a single story in three parts. There's a reason why RotJ feels like two very short movies stitched together because it serves as the climax to both the main plot-threads from Empire. To my mind the only misstep in this regard was the under use of Leia. It started out promising, but as soon as her attempt failed she was relegated to an almost passive role while she's put in a skimpy outfit and has her hair braided (yes, she strangled Jabba, hence "almost".)
Where it gets weird for me is in the second half of the movie when the same damn thing happens again. Leia starts out promising, has a little sister-brother action scene on the speeder bikes...and then disappears to the Ewok village where she gets put in a dress and has her hair braided.

Just as a thought experiment: I wonder how the Endor stuff would have played out had Ford gotten his way and been killed off at the end of Empire? Would Lando have just replaced his role on the ground or would Luke and Leia have lead the ground team while Chewie stayed on the Falcon? If so then that would mean she'd have led the final assault on the bunker and been the one to knock out the shield generator. The problem there is that she'd need a character to bounce off and I don't think Threepio or Artoo would suffice. I suppose they could have created a new character in one of the other strike team members, akin to how they used Nien Nunb.

 

[Galileo7]

Original Trilogy best to worst:
Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars [when I saw it as a boy in 1977 it was not Episode IV: A New Hope yet ]
Return Of The Jedi [ Disappointing to a minor degree, trivial comedic demise of Boba Fett, the ewoks on the moon of Endor...defeating 'keystone cops' stormtroopers... that Ewok song et.al. ]

 

[LJones41]

Leia has proven to be a real problem for me in regard to characterization. I got the feeling that sometimes, Lucas did not know what to do with her - especially in "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi".

 

[fireproof78]

I've gone though different phases of which ones I'd like to re-watch. Sometimes I favour the OT, sometimes the prequels. I recently did a re-watch of all 7 over the course of a few days while listening to a series of synced podcast commentaries and it opened my eyes to a lot of things about all of them I hadn't considered.

Which commentaries? I'm working through some, and have others in my archives, but I usually enjoy fan commentaries. I love hearing different perspectives and facets that I had not considered before in their application to the films.

I'm not surprised that I hadn't thought of every aspect of the prequels since I've always found them problematic (thought not for the reasons you might think), but it's quite something that I can still be surprised and discover new facets of the OT after decades of watching them I don't know how many times. Must be in the triple digits by though.

There are a lot of little hints in the PT that I like but thought could have been better, so discovering new facets is quite enjoyable. The OT is more fun for me because it feels so raw and new to rediscover something fun.

I still don't rank them since I think of all three as a single story in three parts. There's a reason why RotJ feels like two very short movies stitched together because it serves as the climax to both the main plot-threads from Empire. To my mind the only misstep in this regard was the under use of Leia. It started out promising, but as soon as her attempt failed she was relegated to an almost passive role while she's put in a skimpy outfit and has her hair braided (yes, she strangled Jabba, hence "almost".)
Where it gets weird for me is in the second half of the movie when the same damn thing happens again. Leia starts out promising, has a little sister-brother action scene on the speeder bikes...and then disappears to the Ewok village where she gets put in a dress and has her hair braided.

Just as a thought experiment: I wonder how the Endor stuff would have played out had Ford gotten his way and been killed off at the end of Empire? Would Lando have just replaced his role on the ground or would Luke and Leia have lead the ground team while Chewie stayed on the Falcon? If so then that would mean she'd have led the final assault on the bunker and been the one to knock out the shield generator. The problem there is that she'd need a character to bounce off and I don't think Threepio or Artoo would suffice. I suppose they could have created a new character in one of the other strike team members, akin to how they used Nien Nunb.

I wonder if Leia would take on a more action hero type of a role if Han is dead. Would she be the one to lead the infiltration team on the Endor. It would be interesting to see that unfold.

 

[Reverend]

Leia has proven to be a real problem for me in regard to characterization. I got the feeling that sometimes, Lucas did not know what to do with her - especially in "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi".

It's not her characterisation so much as her role in the narrative. I think it comes from trying to adhere to the old tropes of the spunky female side-kick/love interest (Dejah Thoris, Wilma Deering, Dale Arden etc.) while also subverting them by making her a hero in her own right. The problem with that is that she really can't be both at the same time as it makes her role in the latter two films confused at best. Just think, what are the main character's goals in tESB after Hoth? Luke's is to go to Dagobah to train as a Jedi. Han's is to get Leia safely away from the Empire. Leia's is....pretty hard to define. Just in terms of plot mechanics, she's a McGuffin with very little agency. She spends most of the time reacting instead of acting. Even when she tries to go after Han it's basically Lando's idea and he even makes it possible.

It probably doesn't help that she also has two heroic male leads to contend with. Doesn't leave her with an awful lot to do.

Which commentaries? I'm working through some, and have others in my archives, but I usually enjoy fan commentaries. I love hearing different perspectives and facets that I had not considered before in their application to the films.

These ones with Sam Witwer. I don't listen to many podcasts (they tend to ramble worse than old daytime talk radio) but since they're commentaries these had a focus. I've been interested in hearing his thoughts on Star Wars in interviews over the years as well as some of the panels at Celebration so it seemed like it was worth a shot.
What interested me most is that he's 1) a HUGE Star Wars nerd and 2) an actor, which means he has a deeper grasp of what may be going through a character's mind at a given moment. I found his thoughts on Vader's state of mind during the RotJ fight particularly interesting and he finally explained that weird conversation with the Emperor in tESB in a way that made sense. I was shocked at the subtly of that in particular.

There are a lot of little hints in the PT that I like but thought could have been better, so discovering new facets is quite enjoyable. The OT is more fun for me because it feels so raw and new to rediscover something fun.

To my way of thinking, the PT had a lot of interesting and creative ideas, but fumbled the execution. Something I attribute to Lucas trying (possibly out of necessity) to wear too many hats at once. From what I gather he'd always wanted to take a more advisory role but couldn't find a director he trusted that would take the job. Spielberg, Howard & I think Zemeckis all turned him down.

I wonder if Leia would take on a more action hero type of a role if Han is dead. Would she be the one to lead the infiltration team on the Endor. It would be interesting to see that unfold.

That's my thinking, yes.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not her characterisation so much as her role in the narrative. I think it comes from trying to adhere to the old tropes of the spunky female side-kick/love interest (Dejah Thoris, Wilma Deering, Dale Arden etc.) while also subverting them by making her a hero in her own right. The problem with that is that she really can't be both at the same time as it makes her role in the latter two films confused at best. Just think, what are the main character's goals in tESB after Hoth? Luke's is to go to Dagobah to train as a Jedi. Han's is to get Leia safely away from the Empire. Leia's is....pretty hard to define. Just in terms of plot mechanics, she's a McGuffin with very little agency. She spends most of the time reacting instead of acting. Even when she tries to go after Han it's basically Lando's idea and he even makes it possible.


It probably doesn't help that she also has two heroic male leads to contend with. Doesn't leave her with an awful lot to do.

That is one aspect that I have found more frustrating about the OT is how Leia gets treated and becomes far more passive or reactionary rather than proactive or a leader, which she really should be. Leia should be in Mon Mothma's role, and possibly more hawkish in her approach to the Empire after Alderaan.

So, I think that some minor adjustments to the story could have Leia be far more proactive and anti-Empire.

These ones with Sam Witwer. I don't listen to many podcasts (they tend to ramble worse than old daytime talk radio) but since they're commentaries these had a focus. I've been interested in hearing his thoughts on Star Wars in interviews over the years as well as some of the panels at Celebration so it seemed like it was worth a shot.
What interested me most is that he's 1) a HUGE Star Wars nerd and 2) an actor, which means he has a deeper grasp of what may be going through a character's mind at a given moment. I found his thoughts on Vader's state of mind during the RotJ fight particularly interesting and he finally explained that weird conversation with the Emperor in tESB in a way that made sense. I was shocked at the subtly of that in particular.

I have thoroughly enjoyed Sam's commentaries and think he offers a great insight in to the Star Wars movies and how they all click together. While I don't like the PT, Sam has given me much greater appreciation for what GL was attempting to do.

To my way of thinking, the PT had a lot of interesting and creative ideas, but fumbled the execution. Something I attribute to Lucas trying (possibly out of necessity) to wear too many hats at once. From what I gather he'd always wanted to take a more advisory role but couldn't find a director he trusted that would take the job. Spielberg, Howard & I think Zemeckis all turned him down.

I tend to agree. I think, like with Leia, GL had a lot of ideas that he really wanted to get out in the PT, but it became too much and didn't work quite in the way that it could have. There is great potential and visuals in the PT, but the storytelling and characters make the execution very rough.

In contrast, the OT sometimes suffers from the limits of the technology of the time, but the characters make up for it by driving the story forward.

That's my thinking, yes.

I think one of the problem is that GL was trying to introduce the Ewoks, since they were a newer alien (technically) and needed a way to bridge that gap. Unfortunately, it fell to Leia (um, no pun intended) and that removed her from the story for a time.

I think if Leia had been the strike team leader, she would have to juggle the contact between the Ewoks and the team. But, it would have been a chance for her to show her political skills in action.

 

[LJones41]

What exactly was Leia's role in the saga? Was she a military leader? A political leader? Or was she involved with Rebel Alliance intelligence? Lucas seemed to have her involved in all three. And for an large-scale resistance group like the Rebel Alliance, I found that illogical . . . even in a story.

 

[Reverend]

That is one aspect that I have found more frustrating about the OT is how Leia gets treated and becomes far more passive or reactionary rather than proactive or a leader, which she really should be. Leia should be in Mon Mothma's role, and possibly more hawkish in her approach to the Empire after Alderaan.

So, I think that some minor adjustments to the story could have Leia be far more proactive and anti-Empire.

That's pretty much where they're going with Leia in the new trilogy, but I don't agree that this should have happened in the OT. For all her fiery Skywalker brashness, she was still raised by Bail Organa, who was a firm believer in democracy, diplomacy and compassion. I don't think she'd want to respond to his demise by betraying the principles he held most dear.

There's actually a few issues in the new comics taking place between Yavin and Hoth where she becomes so blinded by hate for the Empire that she pushes things way too far in an attempt to capture Vader. By the end she sees the cost of revenge isn't worth it.

What exactly was Leia's role in the saga? Was she a military leader? A political leader? Or was she involved with Rebel Alliance intelligence? Lucas seemed to have her involved in all three. And for an large-scale resistance group like the Rebel Alliance, I found that illogical . . . even in a story.

The structure and rankings within the Rebel Alliance isn't made explicit because the war itself is not the focus of the story, the characters are.

We may get some clarification in Rogue One and Rebels, but as of right now my best guess is that in ANH Leia is an agent, courier and mid-level organiser working with Bail. When he's killed I'm thinking she inherits leadership of and/or responsibility for the Alderaan sponsored cells, like the Phoenix cell.

Remember that the Alliance is a collection of various rebel groups from across the galaxy. Some like Saw's are veteran guerilla fighters, others are idealistic kids, some are deserters, dissidents or activists. That's a lot of disparate groups and I think it would be a mistake to go with the old EU's interpretation that the Alliance was one big cohesive military organisation. In some ways it's probably closer in a sense to the way a medieval army was organised with the various units essentially owned and commanded by the nobleman who've sworn an allegiance to a monarch. In theory that puts those men under the King or Queen's command though in practice their loyalty will typically lie with their own lord and if said lord decides to quit the field, his men go with him and bugger what the monarch says.

As such I would image there's not supposed to be any one leader of the Alliance, but a council of representatives, military advisers. If so then Leia would be one among equals, but Mon is the one most (Leia included) look to for leadership. With good reason though since by the time of Endor, Mon Mothma seems to have become the most prominent leader by dint of probably being the last of the founding Senators still free and/or alive. Also IIRC the first to openly speak out against Palpatine, so she's probably been living in exile the longest.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm really sad we didn't see some more of Mon Mothma and Bail in ROTS. It would have been an interesting tie in for ROTJ, and now, Rouge One.

Also, if it is one thing that the EU always frustrated me about the Rebel Alliance is that it always a solidly organized military and political entity. Perhaps Leia might not be a full hawk against the Empire, but she still feels very much in that adviser role in TESB, and really isn't doing much except serving as a liaison between the Rebels and the Ewoks. Not a small role, but it really feels like her leadership skills were left aside as the films progressed.

Maybe it's just me.

 

[Ithekro]

She was coordinating the evacuation efforts and commanding troop deployments at the Battle of Hoth until Imperial troops entered the base and Han finally convinced her that they needed to leave. After that she's not in her usual position, but just on the run a the mercy of the Millennium Falcon's temperamental engines.

She volunteers to be part of the command team for the shuttle under General Solo. What she was suppose to do there was not entirely clear. She seemed to be the one that had the Imperial codes and timetable for when they needed to get the shield generator destroyed.

Prior to all this, she was a senator from Alderaan that used her position to help the Rebel Alliance under the Empire's nose. What is not clear at this time, but might be in Rogue One, is what was her mission? Was she originally suppose to get the plans for the Death Star, go pick up Obi-wan Kenobi, and take both to Alderaan? Or was she just going to get Kenobi, when the plans were transmitted to her in a desperate effort by the Rogue team to get the data plans out. One assumes she wasn't out just to get the plans to the Death Star and then with the fates of the Rogue team known to her, decided she needed to bring in Obi-wan as this was their darkest time, and they needed a Jedi to light the way.

 

[Reverend]

I'm really sad we didn't see some more of Mon Mothma and Bail in ROTS. It would have been an interesting tie in for ROTJ, and now, Rouge One.

Also, if it is one thing that the EU always frustrated me about the Rebel Alliance is that it always a solidly organized military and political entity. Perhaps Leia might not be a full hawk against the Empire, but she still feels very much in that adviser role in TESB, and really isn't doing much except serving as a liaison between the Rebels and the Ewoks. Not a small role, but it really feels like her leadership skills were left aside as the films progressed.

Maybe it's just me.

"Liason" is probably overstating it a bit. All she did was ask them not to eat her friends, Threepio did all the actual diplomacy (with a little help from Luke.) So yeah, her intended role on Endor is a little unclear. But then I suppose she wouldn't do anyone much good on the fleet since she's no pilot. She is however a crack shot with a pistol, an experienced strategic planner and a proven history of commando type operations with Han, Luke & Chewie. That said, I think technically, she, Luke and Chewie were designated the shuttle's command crew.

As for Leia on Hoth: she seemed to be on equal footing with Rieekan even though he seemed to be more directly responsible for tactical matters, which would mean her day-to-day responsibility was the base itself and it's staff of non-combatants.

 

[LJones41]

The structure and rankings within the Rebel Alliance isn't made explicit because the war itself is not the focus of the story, the characters are.

For me, it doesn't explain why Leia's role with the Rebel Alliance was so unclear. I'm concerned with her role within the organization, regardless of whether the story focused on the rebellion or not.

As for Leia on Hoth: she seemed to be on equal footing with Rieekan even though he seemed to be more directly responsible for tactical matters, which would mean her day-to-day responsibility was the base itself and it's staff of non-combatants.

Two people sharing the command for one base?

 

[USS Firefly]

Was Hoth an old base?
Maybe Leia was helping set up the base?

 

[fireproof78]

"Liason" is probably overstating it a bit. All she did was ask them not to eat her friends, Threepio did all the actual diplomacy (with a little help from Luke.) So yeah, her intended role on Endor is a little unclear. But then I suppose she wouldn't do anyone much good on the fleet since she's no pilot. She is however a crack shot with a pistol, an experienced strategic planner and a proven history of commando type operations with Han, Luke & Chewie. That said, I think technically, she, Luke and Chewie were designated the shuttle's command crew.

As for Leia on Hoth: she seemed to be on equal footing with Rieekan even though he seemed to be more directly responsible for tactical matters, which would mean her day-to-day responsibility was the base itself and it's staff of non-combatants.

I used the term "Liaison" to try and be a little more clear. Clearly she had some relationship with the Ewoks since they apparently had a human sized dress for her and appropriate hair decorations.

For me, it doesn't explain why Leia's role with the Rebel Alliance was so unclear. I'm concerned with her role within the organization, regardless of whether the story focused on the rebellion or not.

Her role may have been unclear due to the destruction of Alderaan and the line of succession may have resulted in some confusion as to where she needed to go. She might have been considered too young to step right up in to Bail's place after his death, or the cell that Bail was in charge of was largely destroyed, leaving that cell to be integrated with another Rebel cell.

Two people sharing the command for one base?

Is not as unusual as it sounds. There are often bases with joint operational command structures, or administrative arm divided from the more military arm. It would actually occur in English colonies, if I recall correctly, with the governors being responsible for administration and growth of the colony and the ranking military officer in charge of security, protection, and defense.

 

[Reverend]

For me, it doesn't explain why Leia's role with the Rebel Alliance was so unclear. I'm concerned with her role within the organization, regardless of whether the story focused on the rebellion or not.

Her role was "a leader in the rebellion". More than that simply isn't relevant to the story that was being told.

Two people sharing the command for one base?

More or less. Leia seemed to defer to Rieekan on tactical matters, but he seemed to defer to her when it came to strategic matters. Which makes sense: he's in charge of the troops and the base itself while she's in charge of what's actually done with it. She's the political leader. Or the next closest thing to one an insurgency can have.

Again though, it's call the Rebel Alliance. As is a bunch of different groups working together, that means they have to be able to cooperate and not just emulate the dictatorial command structure of the Empire.

Was Hoth an old base?
Maybe Leia was helping set up the base?

According to 'Lost Stars' it was up and running less than a month before the Empire showed up. Which is consistent with what we saw in the movie: perimeter sensors are still being placed, they're still having trouble adapting the speeders the the cold, they're only just now encountering wampas and Threepio has yet to figure out how too heat Leia's quarters without soaking her wardrobe.