The Original Trilogy Constructive Criticism Thread

[Reverend]

But is she a political officer, or is she in command of the region's military, thus making Rieekan under her command. The concept would have Rieekan as the base commander, while Leia is the Sector Commader. Making Leia equivalent to say and Imperial Moff or even Grand Moff, depending on how wider her command region is.

That would give way to her holding a General title by The Force Awakens. Though "General" is also a rank/title given to Jedi Knights and Master during the Clone Wars, while Padawan were given the title/rank of Commander. Note that Luke is called Commander Skywalker, while even Ahsoka Tano is called Commander Tano by the Clones, and later Kanan is called General by the Clones due to him being a Jedi. Could it be a subtle tell of Leia's Jedi powers?

So far as I'm aware the new canon books have indicated that Leia opted not to train as a Jedi, choosing instead to continue her political career in rebuilding the Republic.

On the one hand that is a little disappointing since I've wanted to see Leia as a full Jedi ever since that line in RotJ, but realistically I can see why they went that way. For one thing I doubt Carrie Fisher could physically sell it if it ever came to doing anything physical and from an in-universe perspective it makes sense for the character. Also from an in-universe perspective it's right that becoming a Jedi be an either/or proposition when choosing one's path in life. It always bothered me a little in the old EU where for some characters "being a Jedi" felt less like a life consuming ideology and more like a weekend hobby or fitness club or something.

As for any subtext of her using the title "General" over Princess, I think it has less to do with her embracing her heritage and more to do with her rejecting the politics and posturing of the senate. It also sends a message to those in the Republic with the wits to understand: "this is a war, whether you're ready to admit it or not."

 

[fireproof78]

"Anakin Skywalker" was not a label for his more positive side. He was simply Anakin Skywalker, both the good and the bad. Even as a Sith Lord, he was still Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader is nothing more than a title bestowed upon him by Palpatine.

Again, not how the films treat it.

That was more Obi-Wan's way. And he has always struck me as somewhat of a moral absolutist - something I have never found admirable about him.

From a certain point of view does not indicate absolutism.

Despite being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance, Leia has no choice. The Hoth base was Rieekan's domain, not hers. That is the way military protocol works.
And t his was WRONG. Lucas made a major blooper in showing Leia giving military commands. If Rieekan was not there, he should have left his second-in-command to continue the evacuation. In fact, Leia should have been among the first to be evacuated, considering that she was a political leader.

It's not "wrong" because the Alliance is not a standard military operation. We don't know Leia's placement in the chain of command, and she might simply be deferring to Rieekan's experience, rather than lording over the base.

 

[LJones41]

Again, not how the films treat it.

And that's why I consider the flms' treatment regarding Anakin's identity in the Original Trilogy as wrong.

It's not "wrong" because the Alliance is not a standard military operation. We don't know Leia's placement in the chain of command, and she might simply be deferring to Rieekan's experience, rather than lording over the base.

The Rebel Alliance army might as well be similar to the Continental Army during the American Revolution. I have grave doubts that George Washington or any other American military leader would just stand by and allow the members of the Continental Congress to dictate or subvert their command. That kind of leadership is dangerous. And those scenes of Leia dishing out military commands to the Rebel Alliance pilots, when there is a competent military commander on hand only strikes me as something else to criticize in STAR WARS movies.


Are there any flaws in the writing for the Original Trilogy that someone is willing to point out or accept? Or will the majority of STAR WARS fans spend their time pretending that the Original Trilogy had no flaws or at best, very few flaws?

 

[fireproof78]

It depends on how "flaws" in a film are defined.

I disagree with the viewpoint on Anakin's turn to Darth Vader altering his personality. Personality can be altered from a variety of factors, and Anakin appears to be unstable in terms of his emotional mood states, and rational thinking. The corrupting influence of the Dark Side likely beat down any of his compassion or selflessness, to the point that his moral compass was nearly destroyed. I would contend that morality is a consistent personality trait, and such a shift would alter a person's personality.

I don't see Leia's stepping in a "problem" because we don't know what the chain of command was at Echo Base. If Leia is involved in Alliance operations, as she probably was given who her father was, then she likely has more experienced than she is given credit for.

The flaws I see are Luke's training, Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" speech, and Lando's introduction, off the top of my head. I'll never pretend that the OT is "flawless" or "perfect."

 

[Reverend]

If anyone is in any doubt of who was in charge of Echo Base, ask yourself this: who was the last person to abandon the command centre and had to be practically dragged out while still giving orders? Hint: it wasn't Reeikan.

As for the overall command structure: it's a matter of record that Lucas's main source of inspiration for the Rebel Alliance was the Viet Cong (Trivia: he was actually helping to develop 'Apocalypse Now' between the early drafts of Star Wars.) To put it in very basically terms, that was primarily a political movement with it's own army that included a mixture of regular army military units and guerrilla fighters. Sound familiar?

We're now just starting the third season of Rebels and it has consistently depicted the rebellion as many different cells, mostly working independently of one-another, some being gradually consolidated into bigger and bigger units. So far we've only seen three: the ghost cell, the phoenix cell (since consolidated) and Cham Syndulla's little brigade on Ryloth. We've also heard mention of Saw Gerrera's partisan forces on Onderon and of course General Donanna's cell.

From what we've seen of the Phoenix cell, Commander Sato in in overall command of the space forces but Hera is not exactly his subordinate in the military sense since she's essentially a guerrilla leader while he's most definitely had formal military training and experience. They both listen to each other and respect one another's opinion in both tactical and strategic matters, but Hera's role isn't strictly speaking a regular military one and she takes instructions directly from Bail Organa. It's the same with Leia and Reeiken, except by that point Leia is probably closer to Bail's role as a close ally of the likes of Mon Mothma and anyone else of the original founders still free and/or alive.

 

[Ithekro]

Leia has a rank badge in both Empire and Jedi, but they are hard to define.

 

[Reverend]

^It's a bit unclear if that is an actual rank insignia or just a bit of tech integrated into the clothing, which is fairly common in SW costumes. It's certainly not the same format as anyone else's rank plate. The rebellion's equivalent to Imperial code cylinder's perhaps? Controls for the internal heating element? Who knows?

 

[Set Harth]

When did "ROTS" indicate that Palpatine was able to suppress the Jedi's use of the Force? Why are all or most of the Jedi's shortcomings during those last years of the Republic blamed on Palpatine and not on the Jedi's own mistakes and bad decisions?

I think it may be AOTC the poster was thinking of:

"I think it is time we informed the Senate our ability to use the Force has diminished."

"Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."

The script and novelization went into a little more detail:

MACE WINDU: Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?

YODA: Masking the future, is this disturbance in the Force.

MACE WINDU: The prophecy is coming true, the Dark Side is
growing.

( script version, emphasis mine )

 

[somebuddyX]

On the one hand that is a little disappointing since I've wanted to see Leia as a full Jedi ever since that line in RotJ, but realistically I can see why they went that way. For one thing I doubt Carrie Fisher could physically sell it if it ever came to doing anything physical and from an in-universe perspective it makes sense for the character."

I agree but at the same time I'm hoping to see her pull a couple of force tricks at some points in the next films. Maybe use the Jedi mind trick, or some bad guys in her way and she doesn't have time for this shit and throws a big rock at them

 

[Reverend]

I agree but at the same time I'm hoping to see her pull a couple of force tricks at some points in the next films. Maybe use the Jedi mind trick, or some bad guys in her way and she doesn't have time for this shit and throws a big rock at them

It's a nice idea and it'd be very satisfying to see, but the problem is that it undermines somewhat the idea that commitment and discipline are required to use the force in any meaningful way. It's a skill like any other and if you don't actively maintain that connection, it will atrophy.
Leia's already shown an innate passive ability in the force (arguably better that Luke's in the beginning) so her sensing Han's death seems within the realms of her natural talent. But mind tricks and telekinesis should take a much stronger connection.

Also, I can't see Luke just teaching her "a few tricks" like they did in the EU. That's not really how things should work.

 

[Set Harth]

I agree but at the same time I'm hoping to see her pull a couple of force tricks at some points in the next films. Maybe use the Jedi mind trick, or some bad guys in her way and she doesn't have time for this shit and throws a big rock at them

Hell, I was hoping for that in The Force Awakens. But I guess when you're all about "playing it safe" and copying things others have done, you don't tend to think of such things.

It's a nice idea and it'd be very satisfying to see, but the problem is that it undermines somewhat the idea that commitment and discipline are required to use the force in any meaningful way.

But then again, so does Rey.

 

[velour]

We don't know Leia's placement in the chain of command, and she might simply be deferring to Rieekan's experience, rather than lording over the base.

Speaking of chain of command, in "A New Hope", was Grand Moff Tarkin (the Peter Cushing character) Darth Vader's superior? That was the impression that I got when I first saw that movie.

Just before Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan, he had Leia brought in to witness it. When Leia encountered Tarkin, she said to him, "Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash". That, along with other scenes, led me to believe that Tarkin was Vader's superior.

But the subsequent movies clearly showed that Vader was second only to the emperor within the empire from the outset of the empire.

 

[Kor]

Vader seems to have gained authority between ANH and ESB. This is reasonable.
In ANH, the Death Star was Tarkin's domain. In ESB, Vader had command of his own super star destroyer and all the officers and crew thereof.

Kor

 

[Reverend]

Yeah Vader's rise in power and prominence between ANH and ESB is a story that's recently been covered in Marvel's Vader comic. The short version is that (as one might expect) being the sole survivor of the Death Star debacle lands him squarely on Palpatine's shitlist and he has to basically claw his way out of the doghouse under the near constant threat of being replaced and dealing with certain ambitious officers who are more than willing to take advantage of his fall from favour.

What keeps him motivated is that shortly after Yavin, he encounters Luke, recognises him as the kid who was with Obi Wan, notices he's carrying a very familiar looking lightsaber and puts two-and-two together.

Prior to ANH it seems his role was just as an agent of the Emperor without any official standing in either the military or the government and his authority was limited to whatever role he was assigned. From what little we've seen so far, most of that period may have been focused on hunting down the last stray Jedi, maybe training the Inquisitors and probably running to odd errand for the Emperor. He doesn't seem to begin to get involved in putting down the Rebellion until the Lothal uprising, which is roughly 5 years prior to ANH.

The long and short of it though is that yes, Tarkin was technically Vader's superior. But then Tarkin was the Grand Moff in charge of all of the Empire's Outer Rim territories, which makes him one of the most powerful people in the Empire besides the Emperor himself. Basically, he's to person to whom all the regional sector Governors in that region report.
At the same time though, Vader is an agent of the Emperor, so if the Emperor tells Tarkin to follow Vader's instructions, then that's what happens and visa-versa.

 

[Set Harth]

He doesn't seem to begin to get involved in putting down the Rebellion until the Lothal uprising, which is roughly 5 years prior to ANH.

Should be about 4, if Ezra was born on the same day as Luke Skywalker and if they're keeping to the old timeline's assumption that Luke was 19 in ANH.

 

[somebuddyX]

It's a little weird how the Falcon could get to Bespin without a working hyperdrive but as a kid I just assumed they could still get to other star systems without it, so I've just gone with that. Also when Han talked about them being in Anoat system I never thought they were right next door to Hoth, I thought they'd travelled on for a bunch of lightyears and then when they go on to Bespin it's even further away. I feel like Force Awakens does something similar when the Falcon leaves Jakku and by the time Han and Chewie run into it they're in another star system, but that's just my take on it.

 

[Set Harth]

I think it's likely that Han & Chewbacca, being essentially starship mechanics, were able to work on the ship and jury-rig the hyperdrive so that it technically worked on a temporary basis but was only reliable within a certain limited range. ( Though different terminology was used, we may note that this is actually the same situation Amidala's ship was in during TPM. ) Anyway, that's my version of the whole "backup hyperdrive" thing.

The whole idea that the systems in question were just realllly close together doesn't work for me, as it feels discordant with the Empire's handling of Hoth ( they seem skeptical that anyone's there even though Anoat and a thriving gas mine operation are right over there ) and wouldn't fix the distance problem anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

It could simply be a matter of being able to precisely calculate it. Since Bespin was a known system to Han, he might have been able to calculate it for one more jump.

 

[Reverend]

No, it's pretty clear that they couldn't jump at all. Threepio specifically says "I noticed earlier that the hyperdrive motivator has been damaged. It's impossible to go to light-speed!" If a short jump of any kind was an option, they would have done so way before now.

The closest you can get to making this sort of work is if Anoat, Hoth and Bespin are *very* close to one another. Like a few light days. Not too far out of the realms of possibility if they're very small stars, like red dwarves or the like (might also account for the massive asteroid activity.) But Hoth being the 6th planet but still in the habitable zone makes that look unlikely.
Also says Bespin is "...pretty far, but I think we can make it." which also seems to go against the notion that they're relatively close.
It would also seem a bit odd if the Rebels set up a secret base on Hoth without knowing there's an independent tibanna gas mining operation just two systems over.


The simple fact is that Star Wars is sci-fi fantasy and while it would be nice if this kind of thing made sense, sometimes they just fudge it. As such no explanation is going to be perfect.

 

[Ithekro]

So something like this?:

C-3PO: The hyperdrive is out.

Leia: What about using the warp drive?

Chewbacca: ???

Han: No one uses the warp drive, it'll take months or years to get anyplace we'd want to go. Too slow.

Leia: What about someplace close by?

Han: What like only a dozen or two light years from here?

Leia: Must be something around here.

Han: Ummm, Bespin about 20 light years away. Take us about two weeks to get there at warp, but we have enough food and air for that, barely.

A backup majorly old tech survival system?

As for being in the Anoat System, I'd guessed the Imperials had jumped there to regroup once they Falcon had supposedly jumped to hyperspace to escape the Star Destroyer Avenger. Anything to get them clear of the Hoth system's asteroids and other interferences.