The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!

[Maxwell Everett]

So they put now 5 episodes on blu-ray instead of 4 on the DVD sets? So they should rather stay with 4 episodes and put more language audio options on the disks. This should NOT significantly increase the price. The blu-ray releases of TV series that I bought have max 4 episodes and the price was not higher but rather lower than for the new TNG sets.

On the TOS Blu-rays, some discs would have 5 episodes, some would have 4... they alternated back and forth. This is just an assumption, but I think the reason for it had to do with the seamless branching of original and remastered shots. The discs with 4 episodes probably had more branched shots than the discs that had 5 episodes.

TOS was also VC1 compression, compared to TNG's AVC. I would, of course, like you, prefer that they stuck to 4 episodes per disc for TNG (to maximize the bitrate )... and thankfully, TNG doesn't need branched scenes.

 

[tomswift2002]

Of course with TV airings it'll be interesting to see how the show looks in 16:9.

It will probably be pillar boxed to fit 16:9. All the reports so far have indicated original aspect ratio is the way they're going.

Right now SPACE & SPACE HD (here in Canada) are airing the remastered TOS in 16:9 (they were airing the SD versions of the remastered episodes in 4:3, up til about 6 months ago; the SD channel is using a 4:3 matte of the 16:9 picture), so it looks like TNG-R will debut on TV in 16:9 on both SD & HD channels.

 

[AviTrek]

Updated TrekCore coverage with Burnett's two remastered stills (From 'Datalore' and now 'Code of Honor'). Posted the original SD stills for comparison plus a small review!

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/#burnett

The Chrystalline Entity looks amazing in that shot. Man I wish they had a channel on TV that would pick them up in syndication so I can just see what it looks like without having to buy the sets. They did it with Star Trek, they should be able to do it with TNG too.

What makes you think they won't air on TV? There have been no official acknowledgements of any distribution medium besides BD. But it's a good bet that CBS will use every medium possible to maximize their profit.

 

[AviTrek]

Of course with TV airings it'll be interesting to see how the show looks in 16:9.

It will probably be pillar boxed to fit 16:9. All the reports so far have indicated original aspect ratio is the way they're going.

Right now SPACE & SPACE HD (here in Canada) are airing the remastered TOS in 16:9 (they were airing the SD versions of the remastered episodes in 4:3, up til about 6 months ago; the SD channel is using a 4:3 matte of the 16:9 picture), so it looks like TNG-R will debut on TV in 16:9 on both SD & HD channels.

The US airings were all in 4x3 for TOS. There have been no indication that 16x9 cuts exist and multiple indications that it doesn't. Until we see something confirming a 16x9 version, you should assume everything will be 4x3.

P.S. Are we really still having this argument how many months later?

 

[BillJ]

It will probably be pillar boxed to fit 16:9. All the reports so far have indicated original aspect ratio is the way they're going.

Right now SPACE & SPACE HD (here in Canada) are airing the remastered TOS in 16:9 (they were airing the SD versions of the remastered episodes in 4:3, up til about 6 months ago; the SD channel is using a 4:3 matte of the 16:9 picture), so it looks like TNG-R will debut on TV in 16:9 on both SD & HD channels.

The US airings were all in 4x3 for TOS. There have been no indication that 16x9 cuts exist and multiple indications that it doesn't. Until we see something confirming a 16x9 version, you should assume everything will be 4x3.

P.S. Are we really still having this argument how many months later?

TOS-R aired in 16:9 in Japan as well. Though even their home video releases were in 4:3. The TOS-R episodes were available for a short time on Xbox Live where the live action was 4:3 and the exterior ship shots were 16:9.

So I think actual 16:9 cuts of TOS-R do exist and if CBS wants to maximize profits there will probably be 16:9 cuts of TNG-R for overseas markets.

 

[tomalak301]

Updated TrekCore coverage with Burnett's two remastered stills (From 'Datalore' and now 'Code of Honor'). Posted the original SD stills for comparison plus a small review!

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/#burnett

The Chrystalline Entity looks amazing in that shot. Man I wish they had a channel on TV that would pick them up in syndication so I can just see what it looks like without having to buy the sets. They did it with Star Trek, they should be able to do it with TNG too.

What makes you think they won't air on TV? There have been no official acknowledgements of any distribution medium besides BD. But it's a good bet that CBS will use every medium possible to maximize their profit.

Bold was my emphasis. I only go by what I hear and I haven't heard anything about bringing TNG Remastered to TV. If they do, I'll be happy, but the same question can be asked in reverse, how do you know that they will bring it to TV. The answer is simply we both don't know.

 

[Harvey]

Of course they're going to broadcast it on television. Syndication is still the biggest revenue stream available for television programming. CBS isn't upgrading library material like Star Trek: The Next Generation to HD for home video sales. The bottom fell out on that market a few years ago. They're doing it to future-proof the most profitable material in their library for television syndication in the future.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Bold was my emphasis. I only go by what I hear and I haven't heard anything about bringing TNG Remastered to TV. If they do, I'll be happy, but the same question can be asked in reverse, how do you know that they will bring it to TV. The answer is simply we both don't know.

The Digital Bits reported this in May of 2011:

So after several months of looking into this, our industry sources have finally begun hinting that TNG Remastered IS moving forward and that Netflix (and possibly Paramount's Epix cable channel, which has a strong relationship with the streaming service) may be the first place you'll finally see it - in HD - starting sometime in the fall.

Of course, in addition to syndication and streaming, the end result of all this might be a Next Generation: Remastered Blu-ray release down the line. So if all goes well, you could be spinning Picard and Data on disc in glorious HD by this time next year.

It's funny that the opposite has happened: We're getting the Blu-rays first. But I have no doubt that Netflix will want to replace their SD TNG episodes as they come out season by season. Though, personally, I think they should upload each episode as they are completed. We'd probably get a new episode in HD about every week.

 

[tomswift2002]

The US airings were all in 4x3 for TOS. There have been no indication that 16x9 cuts exist and multiple indications that it doesn't. Until we see something confirming a 16x9 version, you should assume everything will be 4x3.

P.S. Are we really still having this argument how many months later?

You didn't see in my original post that the Canadian airing were originally in 4:3 Standard Definition (and on the HD channel they were being upconverted). But since September SPACE has acquired from CBS 16:9 High-Def Masters with the live-action being cropped to 16:9 and the new CGI being aired in it's native 16:9 format.

So it looks like whenever TNG-R is released to TV stations, it most likely won't be in 4:3 Standard or High-Def, but in 16:9 Standard and/or High-Def.

 

[Harvey]

In the United States, TOS-R has only been shown on television in 4:3. That it has been shown in Canada (and Japan) in 16:9 is certainly not indicative of how TNG-R will be released to most TV stations.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

But since September SPACE has acquired from CBS 16:9 High-Def Masters with the live-action being cropped to 16:9 and the new CGI being aired in it's native 16:9 format.

So it looks like whenever TNG-R is released to TV stations, it most likely won't be in 4:3 Standard or High-Def, but in 16:9 Standard and/or High-Def.

But, unlike TOS-R, TNG HD won't have new 16:9 CGI to utilize... the majority of shots are being re-comped using the original filmed elements, so it'll probably be in pillarboxed 4:3 format for syndication and Netflix, just like on Blu-ray.

 

[AviTrek]

The US airings were all in 4x3 for TOS. There have been no indication that 16x9 cuts exist and multiple indications that it doesn't. Until we see something confirming a 16x9 version, you should assume everything will be 4x3.

P.S. Are we really still having this argument how many months later?

You didn't see in my original post that the Canadian airing were originally in 4:3 Standard Definition (and on the HD channel they were being upconverted). But since September SPACE has acquired from CBS 16:9 High-Def Masters with the live-action being cropped to 16:9 and the new CGI being aired in it's native 16:9 format.

So it looks like whenever TNG-R is released to TV stations, it most likely won't be in 4:3 Standard or High-Def, but in 16:9 Standard and/or High-Def.

There won't be TNG-R SD. There is no point. It's called TNG and has been out since 1987. TOS-R had CGI effects and new mattes that people wanted to see even in SD. The only change being made to TNG-R is the HD conversion so there is no reason to even sell an SD version of it.

Also, an HD channel showing an upconverted version of SD TNG-R is just embarrassing and shows a cheap channel that doesn't care about quality.

Finally, Canada doesn't matter. The US market is what matters most to CBS. If you are going to make TNG-R assumptions based on TOS-R, then the US release of TOS-R is what you need to look at. And TOS-R aired in HD 4x3 in the US.

 

[RAMA]

Getting STNG HD in July is the nest best thing to a new movie. It's really gratifying to see this being treated the way it deserved to.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Anyone see it available for preorder yet here in the States? Still isn't listed on Amazon.

 

[MacLeod]

The US airings were all in 4x3 for TOS. There have been no indication that 16x9 cuts exist and multiple indications that it doesn't. Until we see something confirming a 16x9 version, you should assume everything will be 4x3.

P.S. Are we really still having this argument how many months later?

You didn't see in my original post that the Canadian airing were originally in 4:3 Standard Definition (and on the HD channel they were being upconverted). But since September SPACE has acquired from CBS 16:9 High-Def Masters with the live-action being cropped to 16:9 and the new CGI being aired in it's native 16:9 format.

So it looks like whenever TNG-R is released to TV stations, it most likely won't be in 4:3 Standard or High-Def, but in 16:9 Standard and/or High-Def.

There won't be TNG-R SD. There is no point. It's called TNG and has been out since 1987. TOS-R had CGI effects and new mattes that people wanted to see even in SD. The only change being made to TNG-R is the HD conversion so there is no reason to even sell an SD version of it.

Also, an HD channel showing an upconverted version of SD TNG-R is just embarrassing and shows a cheap channel that doesn't care about quality.

Finally, Canada doesn't matter. The US market is what matters most to CBS. If you are going to make TNG-R assumptions based on TOS-R, then the US release of TOS-R is what you need to look at. And TOS-R aired in HD 4x3 in the US.

True, but that doesn't meant it won't be made availble for foreign markets in a cropped 16:9 format. That might depend on if it is more profitable to release it that way overseas.

 

[tomswift2002]

There won't be TNG-R SD. There is no point. It's called TNG and has been out since 1987. TOS-R had CGI effects and new mattes that people wanted to see even in SD. The only change being made to TNG-R is the HD conversion so there is no reason to even sell an SD version of it.

Also, an HD channel showing an upconverted version of SD TNG-R is just embarrassing and shows a cheap channel that doesn't care about quality.

Finally, Canada doesn't matter. The US market is what matters most to CBS. If you are going to make TNG-R assumptions based on TOS-R, then the US release of TOS-R is what you need to look at. And TOS-R aired in HD 4x3 in the US.

Well, after the Remastering is done, a "cheap channel" will be one that is showing the original TNG tapes upconverted (SPACE currently upconverts all episodes of TNG and Voyager when they air the episodes)

But with TOS-R in the US, how do you know that the stations are using HD tapes for the 4:3 versions? Considering that at best broadcast 1080i looks like Blu-Ray 720p, you could easily be seeing a Standard-Def copy of the Remastered series being upconverted, since even with professional equipment from 20 years ago, a Standard-Definition tape could hold up to and playback 950 interlaced lines of resolution, so converting that to broadcast 720p (which looks more like Blu-Ray 480p) even wouldn't be much of a stretch and people would still think that they were watching a HD image.

But with 4:3 HD, a station would probably pay more for a show in 16:9 HD than they would for one in 16:9, because there would be more "picture".

 

[Maxwell Everett]

...even with professional equipment from 20 years ago, a Standard-Definition tape could hold up to and playback 950 interlaced lines of resolution.

Hell, even S-VHS -- a consumer format introduced in 1987 -- was later capable of recording a 1080i D-VHS signal. But I'm not aware of any widely used standard definition format in 1992 that was using 950 interlaced lines of resolution. The best standard definition ever got was 625 lines (576 visible).

But with 4:3 HD, a station would probably pay more for a show in 16:9 HD than they would for one in [4:3], because there would be more "picture".

Sure, there's more active picture... but don't forget why the 1.77:1 aspect ratio was chosen in the first place -- because it's the geometric mean of the narrowest ratio (1.33:1) and the widest ratio (2.35:1/2.40:1). Because of this, most of the pillar-boxing and letter-boxing one might encounter is minimized. And actually, there is just about the same amount of screen real estate being used within the 16:9 frame by 1.33:1 as there is in 2.35:1... yet you rarely hear anyone complain about their 2.35/2.40:1 blu-rays. Go figure!

 

[tomswift2002]

...even with professional equipment from 20 years ago, a Standard-Definition tape could hold up to and playback 950 interlaced lines of resolution.

Hell, even S-VHS -- a consumer format introduced in 1987 -- was later capable of recording a 1080i D-VHS signal. But I'm not aware of any widely used standard definition format in 1992 that was using 950 interlaced lines of resolution. The best standard definition ever got was 625 lines (576 visible).

I've used Professional SVHS camera's from the late-80's and early-90's, as well as other Professional camera's such as Betacam SP that recorded between 800 and 950 lines of interlace resolution (the difference was between the quality of the camera, the lower the price the lower resolution you got, the higher the price the higher the resolution). And on a Professional monitor you can see the higher resolution.

And you have to remember that Highlander: the Series has been released on Blu-Ray at 720p being sourced from the original 1992 digital tape masters (so, that show was probably using the same tape stock as TNG, DS9 and Voyager) which would've contained between 800i and 950i resolution (even though in digital terms it is expressed as 480i/p).

Sure, there's more active picture... but don't forget why the 1.77:1 aspect ratio was chosen in the first place -- because it's the geometric mean of the narrowest ratio (1.33:1) and the widest ratio (2.35:1/2.40:1).

But this is just like what would've occurred back in the 60's and 70's when color was being introduced, but with one additional "step". CBS can charge stations more for the HD 4:3 versions of TOS-R than they could for SD 4:3 versions of the show. But CBS can further charge more for a 16:9 HD picture than a 4:3 HD picture. So, in the long run, it would be more profitable for CBS to sell 16:9 HD masters for Syndication.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

I've used Professional SVHS camera's from the late-80's and early-90's, as well as other Professional camera's such as Betacam SP that recorded between 800 and 950 lines of interlace resolution (the difference was between the quality of the camera, the lower the price the lower resolution you got, the higher the price the higher the resolution). And on a Professional monitor you can see the higher resolution.

Oh, I see what you're saying. You're talking about the inherent quality of the cameras themselves -- the resolving power of the expensive lenses and the image sensors. A pro Betacam SP camera hooked up directly to a pro monitor with around 600 lines of resolution will look great. Of course, the high resolution of the camera section results in improved perceived image quality, but by the time the video signal gets to the recording format (in this case, metal-particle Betacam SP tape), a lot of the high frequency content of the image is attenuated or lost. The generally-accepted "rule of thumb" is 80 lines per MHz of luma bandwidth for recording formats. Sony rates Betacam SP's luma frequency at 4.5 MHz. 4.5 x 80 = 360 lines of resolution. But I would go so far as to say a Betacam SP recording would have >400 lines.

And you have to remember that Highlander: the Series has been released on Blu-Ray at 720p being sourced from the original 1992 digital tape masters (so, that show was probably using the same tape stock as TNG, DS9 and Voyager) which would've contained between 800i and 950i resolution (even though in digital terms it is expressed as 480i/p).

TNG was finished on composite 1-inch analog type-C during the first 3 seasons, and component D1 for the last 4. Both of these tape formats only have around 480 lines of resolution. If the tapes really had nearly 950 lines of resolution, CBS probably wouldn't bother spending the money and going back to the film negatives.

 

[tomswift2002]

Somehow I doubt that TNG was edited in Type-C since that was an antiquated reel-to-reel editing system, evn in 1987, and Betacam SP had a higher resolution and it would've been cheaper by the hour.

But analog tapes are capable of storing over 1100 lines of horizontal resolution. Even though that amount wasn't needed here in North America or Europe, Japan's MUSE standard (that started in 1979) required the tapes to be able to hold 1125i.

I've heard that "rule of thumb" before, but you can't really go by it.