The Most Disliked Episode of STAR TREK - Final Round...

[Noname Given]

Wow!!! How did you guess??
JB

Barbara Babcock plus it's an episode I've never really liked as well. As far as the first interracial kiss business, I always thought the fact that both were forced and it was in effect forced entertainment and both Kirk and Uhura were slaves; it wasn't all that great at situation.

YMMV of course.

 

[johnnybear]

Indeed a lot is made of it being the so called first interracial kiss yet nothing of it being forced upon both characters by the baddies of the week!
JB

 

[Commishsleer]

Barbara Babcock plus it's an episode I've never really liked as well. As far as the first interracial kiss business, I always thought the fact that both were forced and it was in effect forced entertainment and both Kirk and Uhura were slaves; it wasn't all that great at situation.

YMMV of course.

Its a different era now and we take a kiss between people of different colour for granted now and no great big deal. But then it was.
Even if it was forced or whatever. In the context of the show it was a sexual assault not an interracial kiss because by the 23rd century we would have been all over worrying about that sort of thing. By 2020 in fact (or sooner).
In 1963 Richard and Mildred Loving were fighting for their marriage to be recognised in their home state and to live together without being arrested. Alabama only repealed those laws in the Year 2000.
So whether it was the first or not - it was still a big/good thing.

It's not The Cloud minders or Spock's Brain don't worry! I'll give you a clue. It has a lady in it that was in A Taste for Armageddon and she has done various voices elsewhere in the series!
JB

Oh thats in my top 10 favourite episodes .
It had some tough themes and had some great character scenes that people would miss if this episode was never made,

 

[johnnybear]

Oh thats in my top 10 favourite episodes .
It had some tough themes and had some great character scenes that people would miss if this episode was never made,

There is no accounting of taste!
JB

 

[Noname Given]

Its a different era now and we take a kiss between people of different colour for granted now and no great big deal. But then it was.
Even if it was forced or whatever. In the context of the show it was a sexual assault not an interracial kiss because by the 23rd century we would have been all over worrying about that sort of thing. By 2020 in fact (or sooner).
In 1963 Richard and Mildred Loving were fighting for their marriage to be recognised in their home state and to live together without being arrested. Alabama only repealed those laws in the Year 2000.
So whether it was the first or not - it was still a big/good thing.

I know it was a different era, as it was the era I grew up in. That said, if the scene had an UNFORCED kiss, that would be different especially in that era - but as it was a forced kiss between effectively two slaves; if anything that's how many in the South of that era watching the show didn't get all up in arms (in the regions where that episode wasn't pre-empted because the stations only heard the press saying 'interracial kiss between Shatner and Nichols' and not the context of the scene it occurred in as there were no pre-screenings of the episode for network heads or affiliate owners.

Those in the South that did see it didn't get up in arms because they saw it as forced; and hell, that was probably something their great grandpappys did often with their property.

If they had a scene were neither Kirk nor Uhura were forced to kiss, and BOTH characters wanted to, and did so <---- THAT would have been really groundbreaking in 1968 (IMO).

 

[Commishsleer]

I know it was a different era, as it was the era I grew up in. That said, if the scene had an UNFORCED kiss, that would be different especially in that era - but as it was a forced kiss between effectively two slaves; if anything that's how many in the South of that era watching the show didn't get all up in arms (in the regions where that episode wasn't pre-empted because the stations only heard the press saying 'interracial kiss between Shatner and Nichols' and not the context of the scene it occurred in as there were no pre-screenings of the episode for network heads or affiliate owners.

Those in the South that did see it didn't get up in arms because they saw it as forced; and hell, that was probably something their great grandpappys did often with their property.

If they had a scene were neither Kirk nor Uhura were forced to kiss, and BOTH characters wanted to, and did so <---- THAT would have been really groundbreaking in 1968 (IMO).

So you think it was a deliberate ploy to downplay the issue (somewhat) - having them forced to do it?
Interesting.

Also wasn't it originally going to be Spock and Uhura and that could be argued it wasn't interracial because Spock was an alien.

I know in season 1 they were considering having a white man/ alien Lazarus have an "affair" with Charlene Masters but I don't know if any monumental kissing was planned. This would have been unforced.

 

[johnnybear]

I think one problem they had was that scenario had already been played out in Space Seed a few shows earlier!
JB

 

[Maurice]

[...]if anything that's how many in the South of that era watching the show didn't get all up in arms (in the regions where that episode wasn't pre-empted because the stations only heard the press saying 'interracial kiss between Shatner and Nichols' and not the context of the scene it occurred in as there were no pre-screenings of the episode for network heads or affiliate owners.[...]

What pre-emptions? What press? Got any examples?

@Harvey and I have looked into it and it really was a big nothing when aired.

[...]Also wasn't it originally going to be Spock and Uhura and that could be argued it wasn't interracial because Spock was an alien.[...]

Not so. They might've discussed it when the story went from outline to script, but it's in no draft of either, and Frieberger says he rejected the notion when it was suggested.

 

[Poltargyst]

There is no accounting of taste!
JB

Indeed not, JB, indeed not.

 

[Harvey]

in the regions where that episode wasn't pre-empted because the stations only heard the press saying 'interracial kiss between Shatner and Nichols' and not the context of the scene it occurred in as there were no pre-screenings of the episode for network heads or affiliate owners.

I wanted to follow up regarding this comment, because @Maurice and I have been scouring newspapers and magazines from 1968-69 for press coverage of the episode and have found very little. We’ve also looked for evidence that the episode was specially pre-empted or the kiss was blacked out (things that get mentioned in passing in many fan accounts, but without much useful detail) and have come up empty.

Are ther specific sources — even secondary sources — that we should be looking at?

 

[Ssosmcin]

Most of the noise about this episode always seems to come from Nichelle Nichols.

 

[telerites]

So you think it was a deliberate ploy to downplay the issue (somewhat) - having them forced to do it?
Interesting.

Also wasn't it originally going to be Spock and Uhura and that could be argued it wasn't interracial because Spock was an alien.

I know in season 1 they were considering having a white man/ alien Lazarus have an "affair" with Charlene Masters but I don't know if any monumental kissing was planned. This would have been unforced.

I had no idea it was to be Uhura and Spock. Why the change?

Not as much impact since it would be inter-species and with KIrk, there was no doubt of it being interracial?

 

[Harvey]

I had no idea it was to be Uhura and Spock. Why the change?

To reiterate @Maurice — there was never a kiss between Spock and Uhura in any draft of the episode — not at the outline stage or in the script.

 

[Poltargyst]

They did everything they could to obscure this so-called "kiss." It's not a kiss like we see between Spock and Christine. It's not the in-depth tonsil hockey we see Kirk indulge in with other ladies. We get more of a kiss between Kirk and Areel Shaw. Interracial "kiss." Bah. I'd like to know the first time we see a white person and a black person REALLY kiss on camera.

 

[Harvey]

They did everything they could to obscure this so-called "kiss." It's not a kiss like we see between Spock and Christine. It's not the in-depth tonsil hockey we see Kirk indulge in with other ladies. We get more of a kiss between Kirk and Areel Shaw. Interracial "kiss." Bah. I'd like to know the first time we see a white person and a black person REALLY kiss on camera.

Hey @Maurice, someone should really do a research project about this...

 

[Poltargyst]

Hey @Maurice, someone should really do a research project about this...

Has it been done, and if so what's the answer?

 

[Maurice]

W

Hey @Maurice, someone should really do a research project about this...

Who the hell would be that masochistic?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Has it been done, and if so what's the answer?

Harvey addressed it in his own Fact Check blog:
http://startrekfactcheck.blogspot.com/2014/11/tvs-first-interracial-kiss.html

 

[Harvey]

Harvey addressed it in his own Fact Check blog:
http://startrekfactcheck.blogspot.com/2014/11/tvs-first-interracial-kiss.html

Neither this, nor the post that I link to, are comprehensive.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Neither this, nor the post that I link to, are comprehensive.

But they're enough to blow away Nichol's and others' blather about "Plato's Stepchildren" over many years. Plato's wasn't the first interracial kiss on television, it wasn't the first interracial kiss on U.S. television, it wasn't the first interracial kiss on Star Trek, and it wasn't even the first interracial kiss on Star Trek that season. And it wasn't even a kiss. The whole claim was baloney from top to bottom. At this point, I want proof that Nichelle Nichols was even black.