The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?
- Thread starter crookeddy
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I mean, if we want to pick at ANH, I can do that:
1) The plot is pretty simple and straightforward (true to its source material, however). Whether this makes it a good or bad film or has no bearing is in the eye of the viewer (and for better or worse, I'd say the prequels and sequels have deviated from the original intent).
2) Our Heroes arriving at Alderaan (or what's left of it) while the Death Star is still there is a bit "Will of the Force". Just imagine if they'd arrived and the Death Star hadn't been there... They arrive too soon and get blown up with everyone else, or they arrive too late and...er...alternate timeline. Or they manage to get off the planet right before it's destroyed, which maybe could have worked.
3) If one's going to argue that the flyovers of the Enterprise are too lengthy in TPM, one could make the same argument for the final battle here.
4) IIRC Leia explicitly states that the Falcon is being tracked, so why on Endor don't they do something about it? Land somewhere to remove the tracker, for instance. If they're actually luring the Death Star to Yavin so that they'll know where it is in order to attack it, why doesn't anyone say that (and why don't they try to evacuate everyone they can beforehand)? And if they don't know that they're being tracked, why didn't it ever occur to anyone that they might be being tracked?
1) The plot is pretty simple and straightforward (true to its source material, however). Whether this makes it a good or bad film or has no bearing is in the eye of the viewer (and for better or worse, I'd say the prequels and sequels have deviated from the original intent).
2) Our Heroes arriving at Alderaan (or what's left of it) while the Death Star is still there is a bit "Will of the Force". Just imagine if they'd arrived and the Death Star hadn't been there... They arrive too soon and get blown up with everyone else, or they arrive too late and...er...alternate timeline. Or they manage to get off the planet right before it's destroyed, which maybe could have worked.
3) If one's going to argue that the flyovers of the Enterprise are too lengthy in TPM, one could make the same argument for the final battle here.
4) IIRC Leia explicitly states that the Falcon is being tracked, so why on Endor don't they do something about it? Land somewhere to remove the tracker, for instance. If they're actually luring the Death Star to Yavin so that they'll know where it is in order to attack it, why doesn't anyone say that (and why don't they try to evacuate everyone they can beforehand)? And if they don't know that they're being tracked, why didn't it ever occur to anyone that they might be being tracked?
You can pick it at, but these points don't mean people dislike ANH, and that was my point.
Keep seeing this point, and I think it's a little odd. Most stories are pretty simple and straightforward when you get right down to it. Romeo and Juliet is a very basic story, but it's the way it's written that makes it something special. Same with ANH. It uses classic archetypes and a basic good vs. evil story, but it's the pacing, dialogue, characters, directing, and so on that make it interesting.
Just look at Indiana Jones. Very basic stock character, but scores of Indiana Jones knock-offs have failed to replicate the success of those movies.
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I think I feel kind of "meh" about it these days. Not really for the points up above, which were somewhat intended in jest, but more for the fact that I've seen it too many times, I get tired of hearing people sing its praises, and I find other films in the franchise more compelling.
I actually found the same thing a few years ago. I'm 31 now. When I was 18-21 or so, I'd watch the OT with my friends all the time. I never really went off it, but I just kinda stopped appreciating it. Then I went about five years without watching it and was blown away anew when I popped the DVD back in. The same thing happened with LOTR, which I watched obsessively as a teenager.
As much as people talk about nostalgia as a reason the OT gets so much praise, I also think there's some 'seen it too any times' fatigue around. It's hard not to get 'meh' about something when you're overexposed to it. It's a bit like when you drink coffee all day or smoke a lot of weed - after a while, you just don't notice the positives.
On the gripping hand, we wouldn't be discussing it this much at all, if we weren't fans. Fans defend it, or express their opinions about it, whatever they are, because they are fans.
It's not a typo.
Jeez, the thought of watching LOTR obsessively as a teenager...damn I'm old!
I think it was a mildly amusing play on words.
At least I hope it was given that I laughed.....
I went to uni with kids about seven years younger than me. Hearing them talk about reading Harry Potter and being young enough to dream of receiving a Hogwarts letter at 11 made me feel ancient. Even LOTR makes me feel old now. There are people approaching 18 who weren't even born when Fellowship came out!
Stop it.....you aren't being kind here!
I remember a time when the only way to watch LOTR was the (then sparkling and new) animated version!
I have several audiobook versions from down the years mind you....
The only one of these with any "there" there is 4.
It's worth noting that putting in the countdown was a very late addition to the story. Originally (or more accurately, in the previous version), the Rebels were to attack the station out in space somewhere. It was decided that providing direct, immediate stakes would make the film more engaging, and that's probably correct. The price of that was that all of the ins and outs of that scenario weren't thoroughly ironed out, especially under the condition of so much of the film already being shot, the deadline looming, and so much left to do. It's amazing everything worked out as well as it did. But it's still a valid criticism.
As far as cutting out more of the final battle, such as Gold group's run, fuck no. There's a pretty vocal minority of fans out there who think that, though. IDIC....
Or land on a neutral world and switch ships, handing Leia over to the Alliance and getting the reward, leaving Han, Chewie, and Luke to find the tracker? Maybe the issue was that Leia had no way to contact the Alliance in time to avoid another firefight which they were bound to lose unless they went all-in and tried to exploit the plans.
It's worth noting that putting in the countdown was a very late addition to the story. Originally (or more accurately, in the previous version), the Rebels were to attack the station out in space somewhere. It was decided that providing direct, immediate stakes would make the film more engaging, and that's probably correct. The price of that was that all of the ins and outs of that scenario weren't thoroughly ironed out, especially under the condition of so much of the film already being shot, the deadline looming, and so much left to do. It's amazing everything worked out as well as it did. But it's still a valid criticism.
As far as cutting out more of the final battle, such as Gold group's run, fuck no. There's a pretty vocal minority of fans out there who think that, though. IDIC....
It's Niven's and Pournelle's.
Well, my point is that I prefer to nip any idea that people are being disingenuous about their opinions in the bud. People have opinions. They express them. Fans arguably have some motivation to express their opinions that more casual viewers and disinterested people lack. But the idea that people are biased and predisposed to have a more positive opinion because they are fans doesn't really get us anywhere. It's a cute rhetorical argument available for people who'd like to argue, for whatever reason, that that aggregate opinion is really more negative than it seems, but that's about it. It's not really supported by any actual data, and it doesn't explain why there is criticism from fans. The love of SW77 & TESB didn't stop fans from rather loudly proclaiming that ROTJ wasn't as good as the first two, and nor did it stop fans from expressing their disappointments in TPM & AOTC. Putting forward rhetorical arguments in the absence of data attempting to establish that one is in the majority strikes me as indicating a fundamental insecurity, and rather ironically so, especially when the premise is that people "on the other side" aren't independently forming their own opinions.
I agree with you. I'm not talking about the way people feel about these movies as much as the effort they put into hating on or defending them.
Which is completely fair. As I stated, it is more my observation of my own expectations and others stating their expectations (i.e. Snoke) that makes me call them in to question. An example for me being the movie Fight Club. I can't stand that movie and I had little to no expectations of it, other than my friend really liking the book. Also, same with the film Constantine too. No experience of with the material but it raised a tone of questions that were not satisfactorily answered.
Also a fair point. I just see a lot of expectation style talk such as "This isn't what Star Wars is all about!" type argumentation. So, that, for me, points as much to expectations of the movie as the movie itself.
ANH is still great. Watched it on New Years Eve. You are remembering correctly that ESB is low on my list, but still in the top 5.
I enjoy TLJ but would not declare it "the best" ever. I leave that for ANH for the basics, ESB for dramatic tension and ROTJ for space battle.
This is an attitude that I do not get, and perhaps someone who was alive for Empire could help me. At the end of ROTS and even RO I felt very hopeless. I did not like the films partially because at the end it was a very down note. It just felt oddly hollow.
While I can see the hope diminishing, I struggle with seeing it "destroyed" at least any more than ESB or ROTS did. Am I missing something here?
Shhh. Only Disney's not allowed to have glaring plot holes, oversimplified glossy plot points for 6 year-olds since convoluted nuance is still beyond their comprehension, and scenes that drag on and on even worse than one of my droning posts!
Sure. I'm not even denying that the whole defying expectations thing isn't an issue, I just don't think it's strongly linked to actual dislike or hatred of the movie. In some ways, it's the Jar Jar Binks of TLJ - the thing people find convenient to focus on rather than the deep down reason things didn't land.
ROTJ... It was the best of Wars, it was the worst of Wars. As much as I love that film, it's kind of the best argument that three was enough.
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