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The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

There has been a Star Wars Universe for many years prior to the Disney takeover. While spinoff movies and tv series have been added to the books and comics of the much beloved EU of old

People have made much of the fact that the originals were based on archetypes, stock characters, and the hero’s journey, which is absolutely true.

The OT is very much Luke’s story, with Han/Leia and the rebellion forming a subplot and background. One of the reasons ROTJ feels like the weakest film is because there’s nothing left to Han and Leia’s story and the rebellion storyline mostly copies what we saw in ANH, although I don’t think that bit is quite as derivative as some people make out.

ANH, ESB, and ROTJ all have Luke’s hero’s journey at the core. I think that once it stops being Luke’s story, SW starts to falter. In contrast, something like Star Trek can be remade in numerous forms because it’s far more interested in building a universe and telling episodic stories than it is in protagonists and telling single stories. While SW was very much about Luke, Star Trek was never that much about Kirk or Spock.

Going to compare to Harry Potter again since I think it’s strikingly similar to Star Wars. People love aspects of Harry Potter’s world, just like they enjoy aspects of what they see in Star Wars. Like Star Wars, HP took familiar concepts and worked them into something new.

But nothing outside of the original series seems to carry much weight because Harry Potter is about Harry Potter, not his world. It’s a bildungsroman as much as anything else. The heart of the book is Harry growing up, and the central story is his own version of the heroes journey, which follows pretty similar beats to Luke’s. Now they’re trying to make new Potter movies without the actual thing that made the series popular and unique. Spells and magic were the background. Having them without the core is like making dinner using only the spice rack. I think the same thing is happening with Star Wars.
 
I'm not arguing that, but given how many people seem to take issue with the sequence, it seems relevant to question whether it was really helpful to the film.
That will be a mileage will vary point. For me, I loved it and the expansion of the universe. To me, this is like asking if the Coruscant sequences on are helpful to the film in the PT.
 
People have made much of the fact that the originals were based on archetypes, stock characters, and the hero’s journey, which is absolutely true.

The OT is very much Luke’s story, with Han/Leia and the rebellion forming a subplot and background. One of the reasons ROTJ feels like the weakest film is because there’s nothing left to Han and Leia’s story and the rebellion storyline mostly copies what we saw in ANH, although I don’t think that bit is quite as derivative as some people make out.

ANH, ESB, and ROTJ all have Luke’s hero’s journey at the core. I think that once it stops being Luke’s story, SW starts to falter. In contrast, something like Star Trek can be remade in numerous forms because it’s far more interested in building a universe and telling episodic stories than it is in protagonists and telling single stories. While SW was very much about Luke, Star Trek was never that much about Kirk or Spock.

Going to compare to Harry Potter again since I think it’s strikingly similar to Star Wars. People love aspects of Harry Potter’s world, just like they enjoy aspects of what they see in Star Wars. Like Star Wars, HP took familiar concepts and worked them into something new.

But nothing outside of the original series seems to carry much weight because Harry Potter is about Harry Potter, not his world. It’s a bildungsroman as much as anything else. The heart of the book is Harry growing up, and the central story is his own version of the heroes journey, which follows pretty similar beats to Luke’s. Now they’re trying to make new Potter movies without the actual thing that made the series popular and unique. Spells and magic were the background. Having them without the core is like making dinner using only the spice rack. I think the same thing is happening with Star Wars.

First, Star Wars stopped being Luke’s story in 1999.

Second, I have continued to enjoy it. But a funny thing has happened since that time: I haven’t taken it as seriously. I see it as a piece of entertainment that I love and enjoy and will always be special to me, that I hope to share with my soon-to-be-born son one day. If he doesn’t like it? Sure, I’ll be a little sad. But I’ll get over it. But at the end of the day, there are things more important to me. I don’t see Star Wars being less fun or interesting because it’s no longer the story of someone I looked up to as a tyke back in the 80s. I look at it as a story I get to share with other generations. It’s no longer just for me. And the different ways to do so are more opportunity to make the story live on.

That to me is what makes Star Wars so special. Of course your mileage may vary.
 
Sorry, did you think something bad happened in 1999? Maybe a movie people didn't like too much?

TPM isn’t my favorite either. But it doesn’t change the fact that it changed the course of Star Wars. Again, for me, it’s just a movie. It’s not the apocalypse or something.

It also doesn’t change the fact you’re conveniently avoiding my point.
 
It also doesn’t change the fact you’re conveniently avoiding my point.

I'm not ignoring it. I just find it funny you mentioned that Star Wars stopped being Luke's story when the franchise's most reviled movie was released. Pretty much exactly proved my point.

I'm not saying you can't make a Star Wars story without Luke at the centre. I'm just saying they're only ever going to feel weaker without that central core. Also, what makes Star Wars special to you doesn't have anything to do with the film. When I say 'what made Star Wars special', I meant what made it stand out and become so popular.
 
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I'm not ignoring it at all. I just find it funny you mentioned that Star Wars stopped being Luke's story when the franchise's most reviled movie was released. Pretty much exactly proved my point.

Kids grew up looking up to Anakin through the films and through The Clone Wars. I think that it proves that Star Wars can be successful without the core cast.

I'm not saying you can't make a Star Wars story without Luke at the centre. I'm just saying they're only ever going to feel weaker without that central core. Also, what makes Star Wars special to you doesn't have anything to do with the film. When I say 'what made Star Wars special', I meant what made it stand out and become so popular.

To the original generation of fans, you’re absolutely right. But what about fans who grew up with Anakin or Rey as the hero? Or Ezra? Or Kaz? You’re so focused on what you like, you’re missing the fact that the core audience (this is ultimately a kids movie although admittedly some entries are more mature than others) has evolved and grown and changed over 40 years. I get it. For a very long time, we only had the original three. And now it’s grown. Like it or not, you can make a choice to stop watching Star Wars tomorrow and it will continue to go on. (Now you’re going to bring up Solo and how much of a bomb that was.)
 
Kids grew up looking up to Anakin through the films and through The Clone Wars. I think that it proves that Star Wars can be successful without the core cast.

Yes, it can, but those other movies and TV shows have never equalled the popularity of the original trilogy. Also, these were never kids movies. They're family movies, like Back to the Future or Indiana Jones. Kids can certainly like them, but they're one of those 'great for all ages' films.

Like it or not, you can make a choice to stop watching Star Wars tomorrow and it will continue to go on. (Now you’re going to bring up Solo and how much of a bomb that was.)

Yeah, because that perfectly illustrates what I'm saying. I guess we'll just see how well it goes on? I've noticed several fans on this thread (even people who liked the prequels) say they aren't going to buy tickets for the next one.
 
Yeah, because that perfectly illustrates what I'm saying. I guess we'll just see how well it goes on? I've noticed several fans on this thread (even people who liked the prequels) say they aren't going to buy tickets for the next one.

Okay, but how many people post regularly in this thread? A few dozen? How is that indicative of an entire global population who love Star Wars? And are they the big fanboys? Or the casual ones who enjoy the movies? Maybe own a t shirt or two? And don’t discuss it on the internet? Who do you think the larger population is here?
 
There are now multiple generations of Star Wars fans. Not just in terms of human life spans, but also in terms of starting points for kids to get into it. There are the OT fans. There are fans that started with Ewoks and Droids. There are fans that started with Heir to the Empire. There are fans that started with TPM. There are those that started with The Clone Wars. Some that started with TFA. There are those that started with Rebels. And they are probably some very young younglings that started with Resistance. There are all sorts now.

Soon there may be some that start with Star Wars Land on their first trip to Disneyland.
 
Okay, but how many people post regularly in this thread? A few dozen? How is that indicative of an entire global population who love Star Wars? And are they the big fanboys? Or the casual ones who enjoy the movies? Maybe own a t shirt or two? And don’t discuss it on the internet? Who do you think the larger population is here?

You blew through my argument. I was totally saying the people posting on this forum are indicative of an entire global population. Maybe that whole Solo thing was though...

I tell you what, though. The way people are posting on here doesn't mean nothing, does it? Again, I guess we'll see over the next few years just how much clout Star Wars retains.
 
There are now multiple generations of Star Wars fans. Not just in terms of human life spans, but also in terms of starting points for kids to get into it. There are the OT fans. There are fans that started with Ewoks and Droids. There are fans that started with Heir to the Empire. There are fans that started with TPM. There are those that started with The Clone Wars. Some that started with TFA. There are those that started with Rebels. And they are probably some very young younglings that started with Resistance. There are all sorts now.

Yes, again, Star Wars is always going to have fans. But what we've seen is Star Wars appealing more and more to the fans rather than the general public. The field of general fans continues to tighten.

Also, I was in that 'ewoks and droids' demographic. When I was young, me and everyone my age thought ROTJ was the best one and that ESB was the worst because 'nothing happened'. Then we grew up. The kids I know who were entertained by Jar Jar? They grew up.

The fans won over by whirly lightsaber scenes and the grand nothingness of Darth Maul? I don't know, maybe they'll grow up eventually...
 
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Yes, it can, but those other movies and TV shows have never equalled the popularity of the original trilogy. Also, these were never kids movies. They're family movies, like Back to the Future or Indiana Jones. Kids can certainly like them, but they're one of those 'great for all ages' films.

You are right, but perhaps accidentally. Lucas has stated many times that Star Wars was specifically made to appeal to children. The fact that it appealed to adults was a big surprise to the creator, and as the prequels showed, he had no idea how to deal with this surprise.
 
Lucas has stated many times that Star Wars was specifically made to appeal to children.

But when? Seems he mostly started with this kids movie stuff after TPM came out, and he honestly seems a little confused:

"The movies are for children but they don't want to admit that. In the first film they absolutely hated R2 and C3-PO. In the second film they didn't like Yoda and in the third one they hated the Ewoks... and now Jar Jar is getting accused of the same thing."

I mean, the Ewoks maybe, but nobody hates the droids or Yoda. Lucas was just bitter that people didn't like Jar Jar. Notice how he blames the fans instead of admitting for a second that Jar Jar might not be 'the key to all this'?

The quotes in this top Quora answer also give a good overview of George changing his mind on this: https://www.quora.com/Was-Star-Wars-intended-to-be-a-childrens-movie-franchise
 
I tell you what, though. The way people are posting on here doesn't mean nothing, does it? Again, I guess we'll see over the next few years just how much clout Star Wars retains.
It will likely retain very little as time where on and culture shifts.

I genuinely do not expect any new SW production to rival the OT in terms of popularity, or cultural significance. And Disney and LFL are remiss if that is indeed their plan and they will render Star Wars to cultural irrelevancy going down that path.

I mean, the Ewoks maybe
The Ewoks is not a maybe, in my experience. When Battlefront II came out (the first one) one of the favorite game types to play in the Star Wars club I was in was to play Scout Troopers vs. Ewoks so they could kill Ewoks.
 
You blew through my argument. I was totally saying the people posting on this forum are indicative of an entire global population. Maybe that whole Solo thing was though...

Maybe. Or maybe it’s more indicative of the idea that the general public doesn’t give a shit about a young Han Solo movie. As you say, we’ll find out.

I tell you what, though. The way people are posting on here doesn't mean nothing, does it? Again, I guess we'll see over the next few years just how much clout Star Wars retains.

I did not say that. I did not mean that. People are entitled to their opinion and I’ve not dismissed anyone’s negative feelings towards any of the movies. But we will find out what the general populous believes at the end of this year. I’m totally willing to admit I’m wrong.

But I think too much stock is being put in internet opinions. What we don’t consider is the fact that you have the global population which is full of Star Wars fans and non-Star Wars fans. Then you have the die-hards and the casuals. The Star Wars fans are then broken down into those who liked TLJ and those who didn’t. Then you break those down into those who discuss Star Wars on the internet and who don’t. That number is actually pretty small in the grand scheme. It does not mean that people don’t have the right to their opinions. Just that people can’t put a lot of weight suggesting that everyone feels the same way just because some people on the internet say something doesn’t mean the global population of Star Wars fans feel the same way.
 
The Ewoks is not a maybe, in my experience. When Battlefront II came out (the first one) one of the favorite game types to play in the Star Wars club I was in was to play Scout Troopers vs. Ewoks so they could kill Ewoks.
.

You’re right, Ewoks upgraded to ‘definitely’. Of course, in the immortal words of Simon Pegg: “Jar Jar Binks makes the Ewoks look like fucking Shaft.”
 
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