The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[fireproof78]

Oh absolutely, but thy all bring something else to the table, they aren't just genre movies. That's what ANH did at the time, it broke new ground outside of those archetypes - which arguably Harry Potter did in it's own way. LOTR is a bit of an exception but what it did was faithfully recreate the spirit of the source material in incredibly beautiful ways and exceeded even the most optimistic expectations in that regard.

To be fair, Lord of the Rings was the first cinema undertaking to do three films shooting them back to back, and undertake such a huge world within the genre. It took fantasy fiction from "kind of cheap and kids stuff" to "serious undertaking."

LOTR basically defined a fantasy film for a long time.

 

[Gavin70]

I truly believe that TLJ hatred is overblown, much like the PT hatred is probably overblown.

I've suspected for many years that much of the prequel hatred was from the trilogy not being what those people expected or had imagined. With almost 20 years people had imagined their own backstories or taken ideas from the extended universe. And what they eventually got was different from what they had imagined. So they disliked what they saw. It probably didn't help that the first couple of movies in the prequel trilogy had issues with a variety of things like pacing, and acting, and a certain character who shall not be named. There's also a likelihood that many of those that hated it were people who'd seen the original trilogy at a young age and grown up with it and felt that it was "theirs" and that the story should have grown up with them, and what they got was a story weighted towards a younger audience (with toy sales in mind).

I wonder if some of the hatred for TLJ isn't similar. People didn't get what they expected. They'd spent the 2 years since TFA creating theories and ideas about the characters and the story (e.g. building Snoke into the "new" Emperor, or imagining connections between Rey and the Skywalker family). Then TLJ comes along and subverts all those expectations. So because (in their minds) what they expected was better than what they got, they disliked what they got. And when other people didn't agree with them they began to lash out.

 

[HugeLobes]

I've suspected for many years that much of the prequel hatred was from the trilogy not being what those people expected or had imagined. With almost 20 years people had imagined their own backstories or taken ideas from the extended universe. And what they eventually got was different from what they had imagined. So they disliked what they saw. It probably didn't help that the first couple of movies in the prequel trilogy had issues with a variety of things like pacing, and acting, and a certain character who shall not be named. There's also a likelihood that many of those that hated it were people who'd seen the original trilogy at a young age and grown up with it and felt that it was "theirs" and that the story should have grown up with them, and what they got was a story weighted towards a younger audience (with toy sales in mind).

I wonder if some of the hatred for TLJ isn't similar.

Same justifications too. It's the audience's fault.

I agree that there are a wide variety of reasons to not like the movie, but, unfortunately, the sources you listed above also contribute to a lot of misinformation too.

Yes, but contribute doesn't mean blot out, and I keep seeing this same kind of TLJ defense. Even away from TrekBBS, pretty much every defense of this movie puts the blame on the viewer. Seems like the PT's excuse of 'clearer in the novelisation' is becoming 'subverted expectations' for the ST. I've seen the same thing time and again on this thread. It honestly seems a little desperate.

 

[DonIago]

Most of my "hatred" for the prequels comes down to:
1) Jar-Jar (well, that's mostly for TPM)
2) The Anakin-Padme romance requiring so much stupidity mostly on the part of the latter (which covers the next two films)

It's not that I didn't get what I was hoping for, it's that I feel what I got was bad.

 

[HugeLobes]

Ha, poor Jar Jar. Is he really any worse than a character like General Grievous? Honestly, the fact he's even called 'General Grievous'...

 

[Smellmet]

Ha, poor Jar Jar. Is he really any worse than a character like General Grievous? Honestly, the fact he's even called 'General Grievous'...

Yeah grievous wasn't much better to be honest but tends to get a pass because he looked cool and wielded multiple lightsabres.

 

[HugeLobes]

Yeah grievous wasn't much better to be honest but tends to get a pass because he looked cool and wielded multiple lightsabres.

This pretty much covers the PT.

 

[USS Firefly]

I don't hate TLJ, I just think that it's the worst Star Wars movie.
And because I didn't like TFA I don't think I will watch EP 9 in the cinema, those tickets aren't cheap.

 

[DonIago]

Ha, poor Jar Jar. Is he really any worse than a character like General Grievous? Honestly, the fact he's even called 'General Grievous'...

I think the difference for me is that Grievous is more of an extended cameo in the film (seriously, he's in what, two scenes?), whereas Jar-Jar in TPM is a primary character.

Also, I don't think anyone found Grievous racially offensive, though I could be wrong about that...

 

[HugeLobes]

Also, I don't think anyone found Grievous racially offensive, though I could be wrong about that...

Ah yeah, good point.

I kinda think the extended cameo thing is worse though. There was at least an effort to make Jar Jar a main character, whereas Grievous was so shamelessly used for gratuitous fights scenes.

 

[Ithekro]

Most of the prequel characters were improved by their use in the Clone Wars cartoon series (second one). Though General Grievous was a bit cooler in the first Clone Wars series (which came out before Revenge of the Sith).

 

[F. King Daniel]

I loved The Last Jedi. I loved Into Darkness. I loved Batman Vs Superman.

 

[Smellmet]

I've suspected for many years that much of the prequel hatred was from the trilogy not being what those people expected or had imagined. With almost 20 years people had imagined their own backstories or taken ideas from the extended universe. And what they eventually got was different from what they had imagined. So they disliked what they saw. It probably didn't help that the first couple of movies in the prequel trilogy had issues with a variety of things like pacing, and acting, and a certain character who shall not be named. There's also a likelihood that many of those that hated it were people who'd seen the original trilogy at a young age and grown up with it and felt that it was "theirs" and that the story should have grown up with them, and what they got was a story weighted towards a younger audience (with toy sales in mind).

I wonder if some of the hatred for TLJ isn't similar. People didn't get what they expected. They'd spent the 2 years since TFA creating theories and ideas about the characters and the story (e.g. building Snoke into the "new" Emperor, or imagining connections between Rey and the Skywalker family). Then TLJ comes along and subverts all those expectations. So because (in their minds) what they expected was better than what they got, they disliked what they got. And when other people didn't agree with them they began to lash out.

I think there's a lot of truth in this. My only real expectation for it before watching was that snoke was going to be the 'emperor' of this trilogy. I didn't mind what they did with Luke, it was at least a little interesting what they did, and not just predictable having him being this kick-ass jedi master that everyone was expecting.

My gripes with the movie are solely with perceived quality of execution, pacing, and scenes I found to be dumb or cheesy. Bar snoke and leia the creative choices I'm largely happy with. I just didn't enjoy the end result.

 

[HugeLobes]

I think there's a lot of truth in this. My only real expectation for it before watching was that snoke was going to be the 'emperor' of this trilogy.

My gripes with the movie are solely with perceived quality of execution, pacing, and scenes I found to be dumb or cheesy. Bar snoke and leia the creative choices I'm largely happy with. I just didn't enjoy the end result.

I kinda think TLJ did all the things a SW movie needed to do to finally produce something good and new. Problem is, it did all those things poorly.

I think this might be why people who praise the movie often point to broader issues, whereas criticism tends to be directed more at certain scenes and the general execution.

 

[Smellmet]

I kinda think TLJ did all the things a SW movie needed to do to finally produce something good and new. Problem is, it did all those things poorly.

I think this might be why people who praise the movie often point to broader issues, whereas criticism tends to be directed more at certain scenes and the general execution.

I think that's a fair assessment.

 

[DigificWriter]

It's easy to dismiss comments identifying the cause of some (if not many) of the complaints against The Last Jedi as being borne of the film not meeting fans' expectations as "excuses", but the fact is that such comments are entirely accurate.

There are nearly two years' worth of documented incidences of people directly associated with Lucasfilm - from members of the Lucasfilm Story Group like Pablo Hidalgo to Daisy Ridley, JJ Abrams, and Rian Johnson - going out of their way to either directly debunk fan theories or attempt to gently convince fans to temper their expectations, and some of said documented evidence directly applies to elements of The Last Jedi such as Snoke's importance, Rey's parentage, and Luke's activities and mindset in the aftermath of Ben's turn, all of which are of course areas of complaint for those who hated the film.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, but contribute doesn't mean blot out, and I keep seeing this same kind of TLJ defense. Even away from TrekBBS, pretty much every defense of this movie puts the blame on the viewer. Seems like the PT's excuse of 'clearer in the novelisation' is becoming 'subverted expectations' for the ST. I've seen the same thing time and again on this thread. It honestly seems a little desperate.

If I haven't stated before I will say this-arguments for and against cut both ways when it comes to sources. I can be guilty of this in that I can cite YT as a poor source, then link to a YT video that supports my point.

In general, it comes down to expectations, However, I am the kind of person who believes that expectations need to be evaluated. If my expectations are not met then I'm going to revisit my expectations rather than just assume the problem is all the movie.

I also think there is a factor of not being able to predict the ST. In the PT, even before the films came out, we had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen, even without the specifics. The ST is the first time, since the release of ESB and before ROTJ that the audience don't have a good idea of what's going to happen. And I think that gets to people as much as anything else.

Regardless, I disagree with the hyperbole that is often presented-"Shit movie" "Ruining Star Wars" etc, that I think damages the dialog. People can like and not like the film as much as they want, but all it turns in to is arguing.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Amazingly, against all the odds, a lot of people hated the OT, it's just they tend not to still be talking about it on forums decades later.

That's what I was coming in here to say.

If you break it down further, the original film isn't liked now and wasn't liked then at the time by a number of people.

I've never seen a perfect film yet, and tastes vary.

Getting back to the OP question: is TLJ widely hated? Though the answer depends on one's reading of widely, IMO a fair reading of the word leads to the answer of: obviously not.

If you strike the word widely, though, the answer becomes: definitely.

I believe more people would say they are disappointed in the film, especially certain aspects of it, than would say they hate the film. The significance of how many people hate the film is proportional to the significance of the franchise, and expectations of the fans are driven by their fan-hood. Factor those things out, and we're just discussing people's opinions about a film, which with all films vary widely.

 

[Spot261]

That's what I was coming in here to say.

If you break it down further, the original film isn't liked now and wasn't liked then at the time by a number of people.

I've never seen a perfect film yet, and tastes vary.

Getting back to the OP question: is TLJ widely hated? Though the answer depends on one's reading of widely, IMO a fair reading of the word leads to the answer of: obviously not.

If you strike the word widely, though, the answer becomes: definitely.

I believe more people would say they are disappointed in the film, especially certain aspects of it, than would say they hate the film. The significance of how many people hate the film is proportional to the significance of the franchise, and expectations of the fans are driven by their fan-hood. Factor those things out, and we're just discussing people's opinions about a film, which with all films vary widely.

Will you stop all this balanced and nuanced business? It's bad for our reputation as single minded obsessives with bad personal hygiene who lack a sense of proportion and spit a little whenever we talk.....

 

[HugeLobes]

If I haven't stated before I will say this-arguments for and against cut both ways when it comes to sources. I can be guilty of this in that I can cite YT as a poor source, then link to a YT video that supports my point.

I agree that they can cut both ways, but I think with TLJ they point more towards strong dislike.

When I type ‘the last jedi’ into YouTube, the very first video is ‘Why Star Wars: The Last Jedi is a Complete Cinematic Failure’. It does have 30K dislikes, but it also has 173K likes. Look down and basically every video is a critique with similar figures. Then I look at the comments on clips from the OT and find so many ‘100x better than TLJ’ and ‘this is the real luke’ comments, most with hundreds or even thousands of likes.

Am I saying this is indisputable evidence that TLJ is widely hated? No. But I think it’s a leap to say it doesn’t push in that direction, especially since it perfectly tallies with the way I’ve heard friends and family talk about this movie. Maybe some of the factors play into that content, but they don't explain it away.

As for expectations, I just think that’s an excuse people rely on too much. Personally, TLJ was not what I expected, but I also just didn’t think it was very good. Most ideas sound fine in a broader sense - in fact my favourite ST moment was Luke throwing away the lightsaber - but I felt they were poorly executed. Just as a personal example, I was really disappointed during the first 20 minutes or so of Mad Max: Fury Road. It lacked most of what I really enjoyed in the original movies, which I loved as a teenager. After 20 mins or so, I just accepted it for what it was. I know my perceptions don't stand for every viewer, but I didn't feel at all the same during TLJ. It wasn't what I expected, but that's not at all why I didn't like it.

If my expectations are not met then I'm going to revisit my expectations rather than just assume the problem is all the movie.

See, I really don't think people are assuming it is all the movie. I think most people would be happy to get something they didn't expect if they enjoyed the movie.

If you break it down further, the original film isn't liked now and wasn't liked then at the time by a number of people.

True, but I don't think I've met a single fan (in even the mildest sense of the word) who doesn't like ANH. I've met people who aren't keen on ROTJ, plenty who don't like the PT, and some who don't like TFA. Even the esteemed @fireproof78 wasn't keen on ESB (if I remember correctly?). I think ANH is pretty close to being perfect, but that's not the same as saying that everyone is going to love it.

The significance of how many people hate the film is proportional to the significance of the franchise, and expectations of the fans are driven by their fan-hood.

I agree, but then fan-hood feeds the love as well as the hate. If this wasn't a SW movie, it clearly wouldn't be attracting much hate. On the other hand, I doubt people would be putting so much effort into defending it.

For the record, I think the hate is a little overblown, but not by nearly as much as people like to suggest. I imagine the average opinion is dislike or disappointment. That's a little way from hate but a long way from love. It's certainly a push right now to say TLJ might one day be viewed as the best in the franchise.