The lack of national diversity in the Discovery cast...

[Feron]

If anything capitalism has made it worse for many groups. The idea that we’re all equal and have an equal chance to succeed is a dangerous myth.

Sorry, but what I find to be a far more dangerous myth is the belief that socialism is a benign philosophy that benefits mankind.

This year marks the 100 year anniversary of the most evil system of government in the history of our world. The Soviets and other socialist movements committed large scale genocide and other crimes against humanity unmatched in their depravity.

One of the key evils of socialism is several factors:

1) It uses a "zero sum" game for happiness and prosperity. It teaches that if person A is happy and successful, it is only because they have somehow robbed or cheated person B of that success.

2) Thus, socialism usually sets up groups of people to serve as scapegoats -- for the National Socialists of Hitler's Germany it was wealthy Jews, for the international socialists of the Communist Party it was the bourgeoisie, for the Occupy Wall St. crowd "the One Percent". etc. And of course implicit in this politics of envy and class warfare is the idea that if you were to just eliminate this "evil" scapegoated group of people, then your life would be happy and prosperous.

For all of the complaints about police abuses in America or similar rants, those are nothing compared to the horrors that socialist governments have unleashed upon the innocent. The largest mass killings in history have all been conducted by socialist governments against their own people. Literally hundreds of millions of innocent people were tortured and killed because the politics of envy deceived enough people to believe that if only they were to give the government enough power to eliminate some scapegoated group -- that society would be transformed into a paradisal utopia.

Is capitalism perfect? Far from it. But its' abuses are laughable when compared to the monstrosity of many of the socialist governments that plagued mankind during the last century. America is the first civilization that I know of where the "poor" are typically obese rather than starving to death. Should we seek to address income inequality? Of course. But the route that traditional socialism takes has been shown by a centuries' worth of oppression to be a way that is implicitly evil.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Sorry, but what I find to be a far more dangerous myth is the belief that socialism is a benign philosophy that benefits mankind.

This year marks the 100 year anniversary of the most evil system of government in the history of our world. The Soviets and other socialist movements committed large scale genocide and other crimes against humanity unmatched in their depravity.

One of the key evils of socialism is several factors:

1) It uses a "zero sum" game for happiness and prosperity. It teaches that if person A is happy and successful, it is only because they have somehow robbed or cheated person B of that success.

2) Thus, socialism usually sets up groups of people to serve as scapegoats -- for the National Socialists of Hitler's Germany it was wealthy Jews, for the international socialists of the Communist Party it was the bourgeoisie, for the Occupy Wall St. crowd "the One Percent". etc. And of course implicit in this politics of envy and class warfare is the idea that if you were to just eliminate this "evil" scapegoated group of people, then your life would be happy and prosperous.

For all of the complaints about police abuses in America or similar rants, those are nothing compared to the horrors that socialist governments have unleashed upon the innocent. The largest mass killings in history have all been conducted by socialist governments against their own people. Literally hundreds of millions of innocent people were tortured and killed because the politics of envy deceived enough people to believe that if only they were to give the government enough power to eliminate some scapegoated group -- that society would be transformed into a paradisal utopia.

Is capitalism perfect? Far from it. But its' abuses are laughable when compared to the monstrosity of many of the socialist governments that plagued mankind during the last century. America is the first civilization that I know of where the "poor" are typically obese rather than starving to death. Should we seek to address income inequality? Of course. But the route that traditional socialism takes has been shown by a centuries' worth of oppression to be a way that is implicitly evil.

Where did I mention socialism?

 

[Feron]

Where did I mention socialism?

Between capitalism and socialism, what other alternative is there?

 

[Kpnuts]

Too bad, the world is moving past you.

Excuse me? What does that even mean?

Respect the creative freedom of the writing and production team to create a set of characters as THEY see fit, instead of forcing them to fill out a list of checkboxes to make sure every single possible part of society features in a show (... until the next new one complains they aren't "represented"). "Why can't Stamets have been gender fluid" "Why aren't there are any Nepalese people on the show???" "How come no women of colour with dyed hair!!!" - I'm all for diversity, just not tokenism and not to the ludicrous extent we're getting to these days.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Between capitalism and socialism, what other alternative is there?

We could work to create something new.

Excuse me? What does that even mean?

Respect the creative freedom of the writing and production team to create a set of characters as THEY see fit, instead of forcing them to fill out a list of checkboxes to make sure every single possible part of society features in a show (... until the next new one complains they aren't "represented"). "Why can't Stamets have been gender fluid" "Why aren't there are any Nepalese people on the show???" "How come no women of colour with dyed hair!!!" - I'm all for diversity, just not tokenism and not to the ludicrous extent we're getting to these days.

Tell me how it’s ludicrous. I keep hearing this and how shows are forced to use some mythical checklist, but I’ve never seen any proof of this. Just the rantings of spoiled man children terrified of SJWs taking away their precious toys. So name a show.

 

[Long Syntax]

We could work to create something new.


Tell me how it’s ludicrous. I keep hearing this and how shows are forced to use some mythical checklist, but I’ve never seen any proof of this. Just the rantings of spoiled man children terrified of SJWs taking away their precious toys. So name a show.

Holy crap, I laugh-snorted so hard I almost shot a skittle out of my nose.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Holy crap, I laugh-snorted so hard I almost shot a skittle out of my nose.

When you get done laughing, post an example. I dare you.

 

[Awesome Possum]

If it were such a problem, you’d think there would be an example.

 

[Captain Fine]

Just wanted to comment on something posted upthread. Someone mentioned that Ash Tyler's accent sounded off. And that other Brits speaking with an American accent have the same issue.

TBH I have never noticed a Brit's American accent to not sound right. What about Shazad Latif's accent makes it sound un-American? Is it something I can't hear because I'm listening as a Canadian?

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Late to the thread but just wanted to add that given the lengths the show is going to have a diverse cast in terms of ethnicity and sexuality, the fact that all the lead characters are almost all American does annoy me a bit as a non-American. I find it especially silly because by the time we reach that time period (if we haven't blown ourselves up) it is highly likely that China, India and countries from Europe and the Middle East would have become just as involved in space exploration as America and Starfleet would be much more nationality diverse than what we see in Discovery. I fear that after 51 years of Trek Discovery could and should be doing better in terms of the cultural (as opposed to ethnic) diversity in it's characters.

Just my two cents.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Just wanted to comment on something posted upthread. Someone mentioned that Ash Tyler's accent sounded off. And that other Brits speaking with an American accent have the same issue.

TBH I have never noticed a Brit's American accent to not sound right. What about Shazad Latif's accent makes it sound un-American? Is it something I can't hear because I'm listening as a Canadian?

His isn’t that bad. Usually it’s the lack of an accent that noticeable. Every region has different accents and not hearing any sounds off. Although when British people do southern accents it usually sounds decent.

 

[Infern0]

Well as a British person i'm glad Lorca isn't British since he would fit the American TV trope of "shady british guy" haha

But yeah why can't we have some diversity in terms of cultures and nations and religions? Would love to see a practising Hindu main cast member for example.

But that said, we have some nice diversity in terms of sexuality and race etc so lets just be happy with that for now

 

[Brainsucker]

So the thread move from diversity, lgbt - trans, to capitalism - socialism.... interesting. I'm curious if it will back to diversity topic again. Well, about diversity, I've say what should I say. So I don't think that I shouldn't add new things in here. Buut..... I think this is interesting.

Well as a British person i'm glad Lorca isn't British since he would fit the American TV trope of "shady british guy" haha

But yeah why can't we have some diversity in terms of cultures and nations and religions? Would love to see a practising Hindu main cast member for example.

But that said, we have some nice diversity in terms of sexuality and race etc so lets just be happy with that for now

Maybe you right. Diversity doesn't mean only in accent and has different skin colors or genders. But more of culture, nations, religion.... Although I think we should skip religion because it is a sensitive matter for both religion followers and others. You know, one wrong representation, and you will be hated by those religion believers. Not their fault. It's their belief anyway. They demand respect for it, and they deserve that.

You know, I think I more agree with culture. Because culture unite people, while politic split them. You can amaze with Chinese culture, Japanese, Indian, African, Russian, Australian Aborigin, European... oh I fascinated with European culture. Specially their ancient ones, And Native American. Aren't they amazing? but you will hate and fight because of democracy, communism, liberal, socialize, etc.

But... for Star Trek, I've satisfied with a good American culture. Why would I seek British culture in an American TV? British people can showtheir culture better than anyone else in this planet. To enjoy the greatest of their art and culture, I will find good British movies / tv show. Specially their costume drama and sword and armor genre drama. I'm the fans of them And I crazy about Chinese Wuxia Shows. They're amazing. Still, I thirsty for the American culture shows. Can anyone show me a good show about the American and their amazing culture? Beside Star Trek of course. Star Trek is already amazing work of art for me. But somebody say that it's a universal type of show. So it's not the example of good American culture show.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

Between capitalism and socialism, what other alternative is there?

Tons.

Philosophy offers us a range of thousands of ethical and practical positions on things, not just a bipolar choice.

The great downfall of many "socialist" countries was that they saw the individual as a means, and not as an end in itself. The individual was seen as a vector of ideology, means toward a final paradise. Instead the protection of life and liberty itself should be paramount, and is the ground upon which all rights are built. The constitution of the United States for example, places the right to life above all other concerns, even the concerns of the state. I'm not for capitalism or socialism, both have good traits, and bad; I'm for democracy. Power to the people, so they may choose not to be drafted, cajoled, intimidated, etc, into 'sacrifice' for the 'greater good', but can be as involved as they want to be, and follow their own conscious.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

The Matrix and The Expanse are two sci-fi movies/shows that tried to depict a future in which all ethnicities had become mixed, as those old theories of a beige race of the future used to predict. Interestingly, Discovery might be to be doing this to some extent maybe, as Lorca might have Asian and Latino ancestry, etc. It complicates current US politics to realise that the modern notions of race didn't exist in antiquity; your tribe was your race, and to a Greek, a Celt or a Ethieop were just as 'barbarian', and that most ethnic groups have ancestry from the others.

 

[jaime]

Just wanted to comment on something posted upthread. Someone mentioned that Ash Tyler's accent sounded off. And that other Brits speaking with an American accent have the same issue.

TBH I have never noticed a Brit's American accent to not sound right. What about Shazad Latif's accent makes it sound un-American? Is it something I can't hear because I'm listening as a Canadian?

If you are talking about my jokey thing ages ago...it doesn’t sound ‘off’ to me, it just sounds like he borrowed it from Ray Romano in Everybody Loves Raymond. I say this as a Brit who’s pretty good at accents, who also ‘borrows’ them as a base. Un-American makes it sound like the FBI are gonna take his door off the hinges xD

 

[Brainsucker]

Tons.

Philosophy offers us a range of thousands of ethical and practical positions on things, not just a bipolar choice.

The great downfall of many "socialist" countries was that they saw the individual as a means, and not as an end in itself. The individual was seen as a vector of ideology, means toward a final paradise. Instead the protection of life and liberty itself should be paramount, and is the ground upon which all rights are built. The constitution of the United States for example, places the right to life above all other concerns, even the concerns of the state. I'm not for capitalism or socialism, both have good traits, and bad; I'm for democracy. Power to the people, so they may choose not to be drafted, cajoled, intimidated, etc, into 'sacrifice' for the 'greater good', but can be as involved as they want to be, and follow their own conscious.

But which country that we could call as true socialist? Even in a communist country, Kim Jong Un can live like a king, while his subjects live in equality. I means equally poor. Many countries with "socialist" trademark usually ruled by Dictactor. So I don't know if they are truly socialist, or dictatorship in disguise. So where is the socialist country anyway?

I like liberty too. Being free is good, it fit my way of life. But I understand that we can't expect too much liberty or it will become anarchy. We need law, but law is restriction. It's restrict our liberty, and if you put too much restriction, then it become oppression / tyranny. So at the end, it always about balance between the liberty and restriction. About freedom and law.

 

[Ithekro]

Depends on what one considers to be "socialist". if one defines is a Marxist-Leninist, well there are only a few of those left. There are others like Portugal and India that consider themselves to be socialist states.

Other are defined as "democratic socialist" which would be more like the Labour Party in the United Kingdom.
Also there is the Nordic Model, which is a thing of some kind.


As for why not show more religious groups in Star Trek? Remember that the enlightened humans have reportedly gotten past the need for religion in the 23rd and 24th centuries. it doesn't mean they don't exist anymore, its just not something that rules humanity in large numbers anymore...at least not to define them that way. Kirk's era would be mostly indifferent to it. Picard's era would shun it as backward superstition.

 

[Feron]

But which country that we could call as true socialist? Even in a communist country, Kim Jong Un can live like a king, while his subjects live in equality. I means equally poor. Many countries with "socialist" trademark usually ruled by Dictactor. So I don't know if they are truly socialist, or dictatorship in disguise. So where is the socialist country anyway?

I like liberty too. Being free is good, it fit my way of life. But I understand that we can't expect too much liberty or it will become anarchy. We need law, but law is restriction. It's restrict our liberty, and if you put too much restriction, then it become oppression / tyranny. So at the end, it always about balance between the liberty and restriction. About freedom and law.

When the government is given the power to determine who has what, and who lives and who dies, then a dictatorship is inevitable.

No one is ludicrous enough to claim that "real Nazism just hasn't been tried yet", but unfortunately today it is all too common for socialist atrocities to be hand-waved away by claiming they were not really what they openly declared themselves to be.

Socialism is an inherently totalitarian system. It is premised upon the idea that people should not be able to keep the fruits of their own labor, but that there are others who deserve those things more, and that only the enlightened government bureaucrats can determine who it is that deserves the bounty. Not surprisingly, they inevitably conclude that they themselves deserve the riches that they did not labor to produce.

 

[Brainsucker]

Depends on what one considers to be "socialist". if one defines is a Marxist-Leninist, well there are only a few of those left. There are others like Portugal and India that consider themselves to be socialist states.

Other are defined as "democratic socialist" which would be more like the Labour Party in the United Kingdom.
Also there is the Nordic Model, which is a thing of some kind.

As for why not show more religious groups in Star Trek? Remember that the enlightened humans have reportedly gotten past the need for religion in the 23rd and 24th centuries. it doesn't mean they don't exist anymore, its just not something that rules humanity in large numbers anymore...at least not to define them that way. Kirk's era would be mostly indifferent to it. Picard's era would shun it as backward superstition.

To be honest, ideally, religion is good addition. But... it's not without risk. Specially when you touch a super sensitive religion that the followers can easily angry if you mention something wrong about their belief. even if it just a bit about it. Specially when the show premise is that human have gotten past the need of religion (which means an Atheist future).