"The Host" Ended In A Big Fat Copout

[The Laughing Vulcan]

This was an ending that could have used a little more thought most certainly.

DS9 'fixed' for want of a better word the problem. One unlike the Host where the symbiote completely subsumed the personality of the host, in DS9, the Trill joining was a blending of personalities, with each new host contributing something new. Riker/Odan may not necessarily have had the same feelings for Beverly that the original host/Odan did. The second thing was that DS9 came up with the Trill rule that relationships didn't pass from one host to the next. There was not meant to be any rekindling of past loves from past lives.

Then DS9 addressed the issue by having Dax break that rule. And teenage fanboys got the girl on girl action that made them happy.

 

[DevilEyes]

DISCLAIMER - I haven't seen the episode in a very long time.

It might have helped if Beverly's ending of the relationship hadn't felt so summary.

Odan being a woman = no relationship for me!

Granted they didn't have the time for it, but if they'd shown Crusher trying and failing, or at least taking more time to think about it, it might have helped. It certainly would have helped with any implications that she was homophobic.

I wsn't aware that not being ready for a homosexual relationship makes a heterosexual person homophobic.

 

[DonIago]

^Which isn't what I said.

To wit - I went on a semi-blind date with a guy once. We didn't click, but let's assume we had.

A couple of years later he was working on becoming a woman.

Now, if I'd really loved him (hard for me to wrap my head around since we didn't click, but hey, it could have happened), I'd like to think I'd at least put some thought into whether his changing genders would be something I could ultimately come to accept and live with...versus, as portrayed in the episode, Crusher's rather summary "Nope, this doesn't work for me," rejection, which to me raises the question of how much she really loved the guy to begin with. Perhaps it isn't even so much the end of the episode that's the issue as the beginning, where all of a sudden Crusher's head over heels for a guy we've never heard of before.

Not saying she's homophobic, nor did I say that to begin with, I'm just pointing out that how it was -portrayed- doesn't help with such accusations, if one desires to make them. Which I don't.

For the record, while I call myself gay as a matter of convenience, I freely acknowledge the possibility that I just haven't met the right woman. I've -had- sexual thoughts about women, just not to the extent that I could really see myself doing anything with them.

 

[JustKate]

If someone else has pointed this out, I missed it, so forgive me for pointing it out again, but I think it's important to note that Beverly and Odan apparently hadn't known each other for that long. It would be one thing if Odan had been her husband or something, but a romance, however intense, just isn't the same thing as when a couple commits to each other. I think other married people around here would probably agree with me on that. The more you have invested in a relationship, the more you are likely to tolerate (the more you have to tolerate, really), and come on - how much did Beverly actually have invested here? How much commitment was there? All I saw, but I agree we didn't really see enough to know for sure, was a hot romance. Where's the commitment in that?

But on a more basic level, I agree with DevilEyes, Mr. Laser Beam and all those who have pointed out that deciding "No, that's not for me" does not equal intolerance. I mean, we aren't talking about a relatively minor physical characteristic here. I myself generally go for tall, dark, clean-cut males, but if I said I've never been attracted to a specific man who was short or blond or slightly scruffy, I would be lying.

But getting over tall vs. short or dark vs. blond or clean-cut vs. scruffy cannot really be compared to getting over masculine body vs. feminine body. I haven't thus far been tested in this, but I suspect even "perfect physical specimen" vs. "has suffered from a terrible disease or injury" isn't on quite the same order of magnitude as male vs. female. We are what we are, and part of tolerance is accepting that about others and about ourselves, too.

 

[Myasishchev]

Frankly, I think Beverly acted as most of us would act confronted by such an unusual situation. Maybe the last human prejudice is the appearance of someone you care about, and the ep addressed that. It's true Trek has copped out regarding homosexuals (in filmed canon, anyway), but people are wired a certain way.

Many guys have a fantasy of having a menage-a-troi with two women. Let's flip the script, as an ex did to me once. I told her about my passing interest in such a threesome, and she said, "I'll do that if you also have a threesome with me and another guy." I said, "Hell, no!" And she replied, "That's how I feel about making it with you and another woman." This ex of mine was not a prude -- she worked at a non-profit that dealt with the LGBT community, and one of her best friends was a gay man, so it wasn't that she was a homophobe.

You cannot refuse the cup that you have offered another. I wonder how she'd have reacted if you just said, "Fine, when?"

I thought it was a decent episode, although it's hard to reconcile it with how Trills behaved later.

Really, the whole way Odan completely subordinates his hosts is weird, and not just because of continuity, but because his quest to bang Beverly Crusher doesn't make much sense, inasmuch as the personality we're seeing is a gut-slug. Does the chemical/neural link make it worthwile to the gut-slug?

 

[Agenda]

I just think her response wasn't completely honest. She should have just said "Uh, I don't swing that way." And that would be that. None of this "I can't keep up" bullshit.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're all missing the point of true convictionlessness.

Riker submitting to allowing his body (I believe he was conscious and watching the whole time and could have interceded a stophalt at any point) to the being frakked of by Bev. Sure she's technically a beautiful woman, but if he wanted to go there, then he already would have gone there, so he wasn't interested, and afterward he didn't go back for second helpings which means that he wasn't impressed with what she had to offer... Odan and bev were the only ones getting their jollies off in that threesome.

Riiker suffered though because he thought that Bev was going to love this guy no matter what.

Would he really have gone though with allowing himself to be violated by that redhead for a fling underpinned by no real emotions or gravity?

Rikers friendship with Bev was cheated by Bev's flip floppery.

It's the same as if her gave her a new kidney and the very next day she down 6 bottles of scotch and shot some heroin.

Bad Bev.

Fooling the stupid monkey like that.

But then, it's not like she's the winner either. She had to sleep with Riker.

 

[childofdarkness]

All issues of homophobia and sexual orientation aside, sometimes it's just an equipment problem. An outlet coupling with a plug I can understand. Two outlets just sort of stare at each other and wonder what to do.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ Yeah, but OTOH, two plugs can have LIGHTSABER BATTLES!!

 

[STR]

All issues of homophobia and sexual orientation aside, sometimes it's just an equipment problem. An outlet coupling with a plug I can understand. Two outlets just sort of stare at each other and wonder what to do.

Apparently you don't have the same internet I do. I found the answer to that question a long time ago.

OT, the whole episode was crap. Especially that Troi was the one that told Beverly to go do Riker, which given that it's always been shown that Riker and Troi have some feelings for each other, is far more improbable than Crusher gay bashing (or whatever your take on that situation is). In summation, crap episode, therefore doesn't matter.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Maybe Deanna assumed she was within an inch of giving into Will's nonstop umbrellalike telepathic longing for her? No, I'm not saying that Dee was tricking Bev into cockblocking her for the betazoids own good, poisoning the well so to speak, yes lets compare Rikers penis to a well some more, what does lowing the bucket down his urethra by winding a winch symbolize as it sploshes the surface of the wells reserve, but I digress... It had been 10 years since Will had seen her naked, and not saying she let herself go, because Marina was on that shite hospital drama Three Rivers about transplant cases a couple weeks ago and she still looked yummy, but 10 years is ten years and Dee just wanted to make sure that her Imzadi's most recent point of reference for what a naked female body is supposed to look like which he'd seen with his own two eyes was about 30 years her senior for when she finally couldn't take it any more and cornered him in a closet gnawing his skin tight uniform off with her teeth.

Oh my.

My subconscious is a bastard.

Above, I thought in error that the hospital drama Marina was in: Three Rivers was called "Trinity", and I had to go back and correct the typo, because I was simultaneously thinking about how she shaved his back in the bath during Insurrection was the point when they did rebegin their sappy courtship and soapy coitus, which is then that I remembered that the serial killer Trinity from Dexter murders women in the bathtub with a straight razor just like Dee was navigating across the forests of old man Rikers cheeks.

I was secretly wishing him dead.

...Because I want her?

Yes, yes I do.

I should just hurry up and get diagnosed already.

 

[Myasishchev]

If it weren't enough that he references wicked awesome Giffen JLA, he makes posts like this. He's a hell of a guy, this Gardner. Listen to him.

 

[Lt.Cmdr.LaForge]

If my girl friend had a sex change id dump her. So i don't blame Beverley for the way she reacted.

 

[DonIago]

Even if the sex change was involuntary?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Even if the sex change was involuntary?

How could THAT happen?

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ And you thought the guy who woke up with his kidney missing was pissed!

 

[T'Girl]

Am I the only one who thinks it was presumptive of Odan to walk into Bev's office and think nothing had changed, that the affair would continue without pause? There was a "let have sex on the desk" vibe. Bev's heterosexuality was itself not a matter of choice. I also think that the end of the episode was rushed. Two possibles, either have Odan put into the trill woman's body half way through the second act and deal with bev's feeling (and Odan's) in some detail. Or have the trill woman walk into sickbay and end the episode with a fade of Bev's shocked face.

But getting over tall vs. short or dark vs. blond or clean-cut vs. scruffy cannot really be compared to getting over masculine body vs. feminine body. I haven't thus far been tested in this, but I suspect even "perfect physical specimen" vs. "has suffered from a terrible disease or injury" isn't on quite the same order of magnitude as male vs. female. We are what we are, and part of tolerance is accepting that about others and about ourselves, too.

I've gotten this on a few occasions from past boyfriends since my little personal experiment in body alchemy. I'm the same person inside, but the appearance of the container has changed.


T'Girl

 

[DonIago]

Even if the sex change was involuntary?

How could THAT happen?

Odan didn't choose to become a woman.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Even if the sex change was involuntary?

How could THAT happen?

Odan didn't choose to become a woman.

How do you know? We have since learned that Trill *can* choose their symbionts' next hosts, after a fashion. (Curzon, remember, was on the board that evaluated Jadzia...) At the very least, Trill would have had to be ready for the fact that their next host might be of the other gender. Even if Odan might not have *chosen* Kareel as its next host, the symbiont would have had to allow for the possibility. Odan had had, what, about a dozen hosts up to that point? I doubt they were all male.

As for Beverly? Like I said, she doesn't like girls. And she doesn't have to. That concludes the matter, IMHO. I did think she was trying to let Kareel off the hook as delicately as possible.

 

[CoveTom]

I think people are assuming it's an "either/or" thing here, when it really could be a combination of both...

First, there's the emotional rollercoaster of having Odan (sp?) be in three different host bodies in the space of, what, two or three days? Beverly is not a Trill, she's not accustomed to that sort of thing, she wasn't even aware of Trill physiology until the event happened. And Odan did not reveal it to hear when their relationship was beginning. It wasn't until things went wrong that she found out, making it even more of an emotional turmoil. All the changes in such a short period of time in what was a brand new relationship were probably more than she could keep up with, just as she said.

Then, add to that the fact that Odan goes from being a man to being a woman, and it becomes even more difficult for her to deal with. As has been pointed out here, the fact that she is not personally bisexual or lesbian does not mean that she is homophobic or intolerant or whatever. It's just not what she personally is wired for. Yes, you can make the whole "yeah, but it's the same person, and if she really loved him..." argument. But, again, this is all uncharted territory for her, and it happened too quick for her to be able to even consider adjusting.

Lastly, let's not forget that no matter how intensely their feelings for each other were portrayed, this was not a long-term relationship. I can't recall precisely how much time unfolds in the episode, but she's known this guy all of -- what? -- 2 or 3 days? Less than a week for sure. No matter how intense it is, a 3 day old relationship simply does not carry with it the same weight as being with someone for years. Even though their relationship seemed intense, it would be easier to cut someone loose after 3 days.

In short, I think Beverly's reactions are more than reasonable given that (a) it was a very brief relationship, (b) things were changing so fast, and (c) she was not herself bisexual or lesbian.