The Gods or God

[T'Girl]

I assumed current Vulcan prayers and temples were deity free - reverence of logic, wisdom and preserved Katras

It's probably more of a spirituality thing than a worship of deities. I can't imagine Vulcans going for that, but I could be wrong.

Your children and I have asked the priests at the temple of Amonak to say prayers for your safe return.

A prayer is solemn request for help, or a expression of thanks to God (or gods). Also can be a communion with God , where you share your thoughts and feelings.

The prayers that Tuvok's family requested from the temple priests, to whom were they to be directed, if not the Vulcan gods? Were they going to pray to "wisdom" for Tuvok's safe return? Would Vulcans pray to a philosophical concept that couldn't possible effect the desired end?

Being the logical people they are, wouldn't Vulcans pray for a safe return from their deities, who their faith said could possible provide that safe return?

First Law of Metaphysics: "Nothing unreal exists". That would seem to rule out belief in the supernatural,

But doesn't that presuppose that God isn't real?

 

[xortex]

Is the word all derived from the word alien? or all in and reality - regarding all - alla? And Thing - thy in God?
]
How would the discovery of aliens change religious Judeo - Christian perspectictives and beliefs. would they make them obsolete, incomplete or possibly not true. Assuming that their is an objective and singular truth and not a paradoxical multi-truth, and multi-verse, etc.

 

[Maurice]

Then what was she staring at, the wall? Maybe she was looking out a window? She was looking up like we all do but I guess there was no cross there even. Maybe it was a UFP flag?

Oh fer crying out loud. Why can't people just go look at the flipping screencaps if they're unsure?

(Copy and past the links if Trekcore is bitchy about linking to them.)

Here's the chapel set: No "cross". Just a design on the wall:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd023.jpg

Scotty tweaks the camera by the door:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd003.jpg

Here we see the happy couple. Note the red draping on the wall AND the camera:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd017.jpg

After Tomlinson dies, Kirk goes Martine. We can see it's the chapel because we can see those red drapes behind her:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd697.jpg

Finally when Kirk exits, we can clearly see the shadow of the camera on the wall:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd709.jpg

 

[Timo]

But doesn't that presuppose that God isn't real?

More like it excludes unreal gods from the game... Which in the Trek context leaves plenty of gods to choose from. Whether the Christian entity going by the capital G is real or unreal in the Trek context is so far undecided - but statistically speaking, it shouldn't be difficult to find a real god on Earth, as we have already seen quite a few.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

I assumed current Vulcan prayers and temples were deity free - reverence of logic, wisdom and preserved Katras

It's probably more of a spirituality thing than a worship of deities. I can't imagine Vulcans going for that, but I could be wrong.

Your children and I have asked the priests at the temple of Amonak to say prayers for your safe return.

A prayer is solemn request for help, or a expression of thanks to God (or gods). Also can be a communion with God , where you share your thoughts and feelings.

The prayers that Tuvok's family requested from the temple priests, to whom were they to be directed, if not the Vulcan gods? Were they going to pray to "wisdom" for Tuvok's safe return? Would Vulcans pray to a philosophical concept that couldn't possible effect the desired end?

Being the logical people they are, wouldn't Vulcans pray for a safe return from their deities, who their faith said could possible provide that safe return?

First Law of Metaphysics: "Nothing unreal exists". That would seem to rule out belief in the supernatural,

But doesn't that presuppose that God isn't real?

you're right that quote is pretty hard to reconcile with Vulcan logic. Intercessory prayer is a very odd thing for a logic-dedicated people to use. Then of course there's Sybok as well and his quest for God. I guess it's just a contradiction.

 

[T'Girl]

Intercessory prayer is a very odd thing for a logic-dedicated people to use.

Spock: "The existence of which cannot be proven logically. Therefore, V'Ger is incapable of believing in them."

Vulcan are capable of experiencing feelings and emotions, even if they do seek to suppress them. So can they believe in something which they can not prove, but that they know exists, God?

In the novelization of ST:TMP (by Gene Roddenberry) and the novel Spock's World (by Diane Duane), the two authors put forward that Vulcans can actively feel God.

Roddenberry wrote that in addition to the six senses possessed by Humans, Vulcan have a seventh sense that give them the ability to perceive a oneness with The All, the universe's creative force, or God.

Duane wrote that Vulcan's "directly experience the being responsible for the creation and maintenance of the universe." Vulcans refer to this as "a'Tha." Spock says that Vulcans experience this presence directly and constantly.

Novels (even if written by Roddenberry) are non-canon of course. How would you describe seeing stars to a blind species, or a species that saw "non-visually?" Would Vulcan be able to explain what they were experiencing, to a species who didn't have the same ability, or sensory organ.

Humans do have this ability to experience God, although (apparently) not everyone does.

 

[xortex]

'My God, it's full of stars' - David Bowman, 2001.

Do dogs or spiders believe in God? Cats believe they are God, but..

 

[sonak]

Intercessory prayer is a very odd thing for a logic-dedicated people to use.

Spock: "The existence of which cannot be proven logically. Therefore, V'Ger is incapable of believing in them."

Vulcan are capable of experiencing feelings and emotions, even if they do seek to suppress them. So can they believe in something which they can not prove, but that they know exists, God?

In the novelization of ST:TMP (by Gene Roddenberry) and the novel Spock's World (by Diane Duane), the two authors put forward that Vulcans can actively feel God.

Roddenberry wrote that in addition to the six senses possessed by Humans, Vulcan have a seventh sense that give them the ability to perceive a oneness with The All, the universe's creative force, or God.

Duane wrote that Vulcan's "directly experience the being responsible for the creation and maintenance of the universe." Vulcans refer to this as "a'Tha." Spock says that Vulcans experience this presence directly and constantly.

Novels (even if written by Roddenberry) are non-canon of course. How would you describe seeing stars to a blind species, or a species that saw "non-visually?" Would Vulcan be able to explain what they were experiencing, to a species who didn't have the same ability, or sensory organ.

Humans do have this ability to experience God, although (apparently) not everyone does.

there's nothing to back up that last statement. Subjective experience doesn't prove that Humans can "experience" God or that God even exists. There are folks who spend large chunks of their lives praying, meditating, etc. for a religious experience and come up empty. Werre they just unworthy, or were the ones who "experienced" God just deluding themselves or having a chemical reaction in the brain?


If Vulcans really COULD sense God and prove that scientifically, then it would no longer be faith, and would be logical anyway.

 

[Vanyel]

The Bajorans/Dominion are Polytheistic

Only in the sense Christians are polytheists.

That is, Christians have three gods who are one and the same (at least in the most recent consensus, reached after the necessary holy wars, persecutions and whatnot - previously, these were often considered a hierarchy of some sort). Bajorans have a horde of Prophets who are one and the same - that is, indistinguishable. The Jem'Hadar have the Founders who apparently are literally one and the same factual creature, only with many heads...

Incidentally, Bajorans may also have a God, or perhaps several. At least Dr Mora Pol once exclaimed "My God!", without bothering to tell us whether his was one out of many.

Timo Saloniemi

Using Catholicism as an example, you have The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The belief in The Holy Trinity has caused schisms. However, to Catholics they are One God.

The Founders, I believe can be seen in the same way. One God - a big pool or ocean - which can send of sons and daughters. This can reflect some of the Catholic teachings.

The Prophets, on the other hand, are a pantheon. Individuals. Sisko's mother was off away from the Celestial Temple and one Prophet faced one Pah-Wraith in a duel on DS9. And when encountered in the Worm hole or through an Orb, they speak and debate as individuals, not one whole.

 

[T'Girl]

If Vulcans really COULD sense God and prove that scientifically ...

But how do you prove a perception? Even if all Vulcan experience it, it's still anecdotal.

then it would no longer be faith, and would be logical anyway.

But if it could not be prove scientifically, yet the Vulcan people still knew it to be true, then that truth would be the sound basis for their faith. Where would be the logic in denying what they all experienced?

So they would have a belief system, based solely on empirical evidence.

Subjective experience doesn't prove that Humans can "experience" God or that God even exists.

A subjective experience is a very good description of what is happening during prayer.

Humans do have this ability to experience God, although (apparently) not everyone does.

there's nothing to back up that last statement.

What kind of "back up" would you be willing to accept, and reasonable what could I personally be able to provide? You can't listen in as God says "Carletta, here's what I want you to do." Because that not what I get back, I get concepts, I get pathways, I get what feels like a "push."

 

[sonak]

If Vulcans really COULD sense God and prove that scientifically ...

But how do you prove a perception? Even if all Vulcan experience it, it's still anecdotal.

then it would no longer be faith, and would be logical anyway.

But if it could not be prove scientifically, yet the Vulcan people still knew it to be true, then that truth would be the sound basis for their faith. Where would be the logic in denying what they all experienced?

So they would have a belief system, based solely on empirical evidence.

A subjective experience is a very good description of what is happening during prayer.

Humans do have this ability to experience God, although (apparently) not everyone does.

there's nothing to back up that last statement.

What kind of "back up" would you be willing to accept, and reasonable what could I personally be able to provide? You can't listen in as God says "Carletta, here's what I want you to do." Because that not what I get back, I get concepts, I get pathways, I get what feels like a "push."

Humans aren't the most reliable of witnesses for their experiences. Their memories aren't very good, they're full of cognitive biases, they're influenced by emotional concerns, etc. Do you accept every report from someone who says that they were abducted by aliens?


On the other hand, if an entire race like the Vulcans, with a culture dedicated to logic, had a similar experience of God, and it was observable and recordable, then it would be a pretty defensible assumption that something was at the core of it.

But no, if a random person on the street says "God talks to me through prayer in my head," I don't just accept that as evidence of God.

 

[T'Girl]

But would your acceptance, be necessarily for that individual to have a relationship with God? Should God speak to that person "in their head," and you standing only a few feet away hear nothing, that just means you didn't experience it.

It doesn't mean they didn't.

Do you accept every report from someone who says that they were abducted by aliens?

If millions upon millions of people for thousands of years had had experiences with "aliens," and I myself had also (I never have), then yes I would be inclined to believe them.

 

[xortex]

What about IDIC - Is that a religious symbol in Trek. In the hippie ep, Spock forms his hands into a pyramid and says 'One' or the all. That seemed to be a philosophy.

Alot of people hear voices. Any theories? Or speak in ancient toungues.

 

[Timo]

Most people are probably just crazy. I mean, it's not as if sanity would have to be a prevalent thing or anything - there's no evolutionary pressure for it, not in a society where the insane are cared for. And indeed religious insanity would be favored in cultural evolution, as it makes for easily controlled societies.

Vulcans would be in a rather special position here, as for them the concept of "subjective" would be held at a different standard. Vulcans can go inside each others' heads, and thus evaluate the truthfulness of a personal experience by standards such as majority decision, judging by figure of authority, comparison between cases, statistical analysis, and so forth. A divine experience would thus get judged in the subjective/objective axis, or the absolute/relative axis, and it could be decided that T'One was just cuckoo but T'Two had an experience shared by a million others. In real world practice, that's enough to decide that T'Two's experience was "true", for the usual value of truth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

But would your acceptance, be necessarily for that individual to have a relationship with God? Should God speak to that person "in their head," and you standing only a few feet away hear nothing, that just means you didn't experience it.

It doesn't mean they didn't.

Do you accept every report from someone who says that they were abducted by aliens?

If millions upon millions of people for thousands of years had had experiences with "aliens," and I myself had also (I never have), then yes I would be inclined to believe them.

Lots of people throughout history have had experience with "hearing voices." They were probably auditory hallucinations, one of the ways that schizophrenia can manifest. By your logic, just because we weren't hearing what they were hearing, doesn't mean they weren't hearing something. Maybe their dead grandfather Ned really WAS talking to them.

(I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm just taking your argument to its logical conclusion. When someone says that they hear voices that only they can experience, we usually think it's a symptom that something's wrong. Unless they throw God into the picture, then all of the sudden it's a religious experience)

I liked Timo's point though. Thanks to the telepathic stuff, Vulcans can investigate subjective religious experiences of other Vulcans.

 

[The Dominion]

What kind of "back up" would you be willing to accept, and reasonable what could I personally be able to provide? You can't listen in as God says "Carletta, here's what I want you to do." Because that not what I get back, I get concepts, I get pathways, I get what feels like a "push."

That's hardly evidence for anything. If you can't find any evidence or reasoning for god to exist, than there's no rational justification for assuming he does. I know it defeats the point of faith, but why put faith in something that can never be proven to have any significant influence on reality, much less exist? It's a total assumption that is irrelevant to everything observable. If god exists and indeed influences reality, let him provide more logical evidence of his presence besides vague, tingly feelings that can't be rationalized with. Otherwise it's pointless to assume that something is controlled by an unknown god, just because we can't prove otherwise.

 

[xortex]

What was that line from 'Contact' - 'Did your father love you?' 'Yes.' 'Prove it.'

 

[Timo]

That's simple enough: if there were issues where the love manifested (material perks for the kid, tender gestures, kind looks, terrifyingly exciting bedtime stories), that's relevant and easily provable love. The rest is irrelevant love.

A Vulcan could objectively prove the rest as well, of course, and a good brain chemist could do it in the real world, but it would still remain fairly irrelevant. Unless, of course, the kid lacked provable fatherly love and had to dream up the unprovable sort, in which case she would go to extreme lengths to seek maximally unprovable things, thus preparing against the scary scenario where nonexistence gets proven. But Vulcans would again be in an excellent position to sort out that sort of thing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[xortex]

Maybe the Vulcans dreamed us up.