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Spoilers The game changing Voq theory

@D_Fry, just because those other actors you mentioned have smaller roles on this show than Javid Iqbal, doesn't mean they can't get higher billing. Most of the other DSC actors have a lot more credits to their name than Iqbal. They may have fewer lines/scenes in this one show, but they've been in more shows (total) than Iqbal has. So that's what will get them mentioned sooner in the credits.

It's probably some rule put forth by the Screen Actors Guild or whatever the Canadian equivalent is.
 
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I am pretty convinced this theory is true. For me, the strongest evidence is in the post-show credits. Both Wilson Cruz (Doctor Culver) and Kenneth Mitchell (Kol) get their own intertitle as full-on guest stars. Culver has a 30-second conversation with Stamets and shakes his head over Landry’s body while Kol is clearly a secondary player to Voq in the Klingon storyline. Meanwhile, "Javid Iqbal" gets this:

He has to share the screen with a bunch of one liners on the bridge crew and the computer of a wrecked ship. Unless Iqbal has the worst agent in the industry, there is no logical reason why the Voq actor would get worse billing in the end credits than actors with much smaller roles. Unless of course he already appears in the main titles :)

This is what convinced me this week that Shazad Latif is Voq (that theory hadn't even been on my radar until suddenly it was obvious). Here's another bit: working in casting, I have access to various casting databases, between them I can always find a listing for any actor working today. I looked him up in all the usual places, and Javid Iqbal isn't listed on any of them. He also does not seem to be signed by an agent.

I just do not see anyway this unrepresented, off-the-grid actor gets THIS role in THIS project. And if he's as out-of-nowhere as it seems, he would be in the press! Because it would definitely be a great story how he has (essentially) no credits and then booked this part!

If Tyler is a Klingon, the doctor should detect that. Even if the Dr doesn't, Lorca's tribble should.

If that's what the Tribble is there for, that is fucking brilliant.

And the process as I had it described to me doesn't typically allow for that kind of flexibility, although instances of rewrites/additions do clearly happen thanks to that example from @jamestyler.

It's more the casting process and the timing thereof that I find to be the biggest hurdle to clear in terms of this whole "Voq is Lieutenant Tyler" thing anyway.

I've worked on a lot of shows, and it goes all different ways. Some shows do lock the scripts in advance of shooting and don't change them, not because you can't, but because this is how you will get the best results, if you can pull it off. Obviously the shoot will go better if the crew is given plenty of notice of what they are going to shoot, and have time to adequately prep and plan and come up with the best way to realize the scripts vision. (Some shows now will block-shoot their whole season, so those productions really do have to lock their scripts in advance, because it's going to be shot as one giant piece -- more like a movie than TV. I'm speaking of shows that are shot in the more traditional style of one episode after the other, which I believe is what they're doing on Discovery)

Anyway, I've also worked on shows where the scripts are constantly running late, or being significantly rewritten at the last second, and this is a nightmare. But it happens sometimes, for whatever reason... the writing side is just not going well and the scripts are taking too long to pull together, or maybe the showrunner sucks and is not up to the task of getting this show running smoothly, or the network drags their feet with notes/approvals and throws things into chaos by swinging in at the last possible second with edicts that upend everything (I was once working on a serialized network show with some mystery arcs. THE NIGHT BEFORE we were going to shoot a scene for a mid-season episode, to pay off HALF A SEASON OF METICULOUSLY PLANNED BUILDUP on one leads mysterious backstory, the network exec said they had decided they hated what the reveal was and wanted that character to have a different backstory. This is at the end of the business day, so the writers had to spend that night trying to come up with a completely different idea, that would somehow also fit all the many clues and setup that had already been shot, that could be shot with the cast booked for the next day, in the locations already selected. As you might imagine, they did the best they could, but the resulting new pages were awful. Then these new pages are given to the actors in the morning, and shot immediately. The guest cast was now totally wrong for the way their roles had been reconceived, but it was so last minute, there was nothing to do but have them play these now-severely-miscast parts. And suddenly the series regular is told that the truth of her character is totally different than what she had been playing all year. And she has about an hour to assimilate that before going before cameras and shooting these new big dramatic scenes that she has just been handed. It was bad! But this stuff happens. You would be surprised by how many similar stories I have)

But the most common is something in between: you get a script when it's time to start prep that is pretty close to what you will end up shooting. As prep goes on there will be a handful of significant revisions, but it's good faith -- the writers are legitimately having better ideas as they continue to work on it, and the crew still has enough time to adequately prep for it. Revisions continue all the way through shoot, but getting increasingly minor as it goes along, it's just tiny dialogue tweaks by the end of it.
 
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@D_Fry, just because those other actors you mentioned have smaller roles on this show than Javid Iqbal, doesn't mean they can't get higher billing. Most of the other DSC actors have a lot more credits to their name than Iqbal. They may have fewer lines/scenes in this one show, but they've been in more shows (total) than Iqbal has. So that's what will get them mentioned sooner in the credits.

It's probably some rule put forth by the Screen Actors Guild or whatever the Canadian equivalent is.
The Voq credit seems extraordinarily out of proportion with the scope of the role. Here's a good explainer on the difference between Co-Stars and Guest Stars. The Voq actor has clearly delivered Guest Star-size performances in three episodes yet only received the lowest possible credit as a Co-Star in all three. Again, Iqbal must have a terrible agent. And even if this theory is false, Voq is evidently intended to be a major recurring character. If the producers plucked an actor out of near total obscurity for this important role, why would they not want to showcase him as they did with other recurring player like Mary Chieffo or Wilson Cruz?
 
Let's assume for a moment that Voq is Tyler and Tyler is Voq. How does this actually work in terms of the next episode?

For Voq to become Tyler, one assumes there would have to be a time jump during which he learns the ways of humanity. However, my sense at the end of 1x04 is that Burham's unease with the treatment of Ripper is of growing concern. We know that story will continue in 1x05. It's hard for me to imagine that there will be a time jump in the middle of that narrative thread, as it would undermine the urgency of Ripper's predicament. Also, I'm not sure if we want to skip ahead in time right now and miss the changing dynamics between Burham and the crew of Discovery.

That said, I really like the idea that Voq becomes Tyler. Can anyone think of a way that that can happen without undermining Burnham's arc, seeming like an artificially fast transformation and learning experience for Voq, or deflating the urgency surrounding Ripper? I guess the one option would be, as noted in the thread already, that Voq is a Manchurian Candidate-style case, and perhaps over time he begins to realize that he isn't Tyler...or must eventually choose between hurting someone he comes to care about on Discovery or loyalty to the Klingon Empire.
 
I am pretty convinced this theory is true. For me, the strongest evidence is in the post-show credits. Both Wilson Cruz (Doctor Culver) and Kenneth Mitchell (Kol) get their own intertitle as full-on guest stars. Culver has a 30-second conversation with Stamets and shakes his head over Landry’s body while Kol is clearly a secondary player to Voq in the Klingon storyline. Meanwhile, "Javid Iqbal" gets this:

He has to share the screen with a bunch of one liners on the bridge crew and the computer of a wrecked ship. Unless Iqbal has the worst agent in the industry, there is no logical reason why the Voq actor would get worse billing in the end credits than actors with much smaller roles. Unless of course he already appears in the main titles :)
I have no idea where this will go and if there is something to the whole “Tyler is Voq” theory, but the way Javid Iqbal is credited is definitely weird for the kind of role he's playing.

This is what convinced me this week that Shazad Latif is Voq (that theory hadn't even been on my radar until suddenly it was obvious). Here's another bit: working in casting, I have access to various casting databases, between them I can always find a listing for any actor working today. I looked him up in all the usual places, and Javid Iqbal isn't listed on any of them. He also does not seem to be signed by an agent.

I just do not see anyway this unrepresented, off-the-grid actor gets THIS role in THIS project. And if he's as out-of-nowhere as it seems, he would be in the press! Because it would definitely be a great story how he has (essentially) no credits and then booked this part!
Wait a minute, are you saying that's actually Shazad Latif under Voq's Klingon makeup? Now that can't be true, because he really does look like that Javid Iqbal fella, even under the heavy makeup I think I can recognize his face.
 
Let's assume for a moment that Voq is Tyler and Tyler is Voq. How does this actually work in terms of the next episode?
.

Yeah, you'd probably need some combination of plastic surgery and memory transfer from the real Lt. Tyler for Voq to become Tyler by the next episode. Of course, they can't really show that this Sunday unless they want to spill the secret from the get-go. How they'd do the reveal without it seeming fantastical, I have no idea. I like the Tribble factor, but Lorca and 99% of the audience will have no clue that a Tribble acting up means someone is a secret Klingon, so they'd also need something else.
 
I assume that Voq will eventually have some sort of betrayal moment. Like, "Yes, we have a herd of the monsters and the spores and...WHY ARE THE KLINGONS HERE!"

:)
 
The Voq credit seems extraordinarily out of proportion with the scope of the role. Here's a good explainer on the difference between Co-Stars and Guest Stars. The Voq actor has clearly delivered Guest Star-size performances in three episodes yet only received the lowest possible credit as a Co-Star in all three. Again, Iqbal must have a terrible agent. And even if this theory is false, Voq is evidently intended to be a major recurring character. If the producers plucked an actor out of near total obscurity for this important role, why would they not want to showcase him as they did with other recurring player like Mary Chieffo or Wilson Cruz?

Man, I wish I knew exactly what contract they were shooting this under. I used to love working on the credits, on a network show there are all these union rules that restrict where billing can go and who can have which credit, depending on number of days worked and what they're getting paid. So if this were a broadcast network show, and you are A. really under budget pressure or B. just an asshole, you might put a newbie actor playing a prominent role in the co-star category, because that could create a loophole that lets you pay them less than they really should be getting.

But I think the contract for streaming shows is much more wild-west (I THINK -- I've never done a streaming show myself -- but I've done cable and all these rules didn't apply there, only network). But I believe streaming casting directors have more latitude to set the credits in a way that reflects the prominence of the roles, without it then entangling them in union regulations that might put more money in the actors pocket.
 
I am pretty convinced this theory is true. For me, the strongest evidence is in the post-show credits. Both Wilson Cruz (Doctor Culver) and Kenneth Mitchell (Kol) get their own intertitle as full-on guest stars. Culver has a 30-second conversation with Stamets and shakes his head over Landry’s body while Kol is clearly a secondary player to Voq in the Klingon storyline. Meanwhile, "Javid Iqbal" gets this:

He has to share the screen with a bunch of one liners on the bridge crew and the computer of a wrecked ship. Unless Iqbal has the worst agent in the industry, there is no logical reason why the Voq actor would get worse billing in the end credits than actors with much smaller roles. Unless of course he already appears in the main titles :)

Wow, good catch. Voq's actor would have to have the worst agent in history to be relegated to co-star billing for this pivotal part.

This info definitely has pushed me over the edge into entertaining the theory. I did find it strange that they weren't doing any press on Voq's actor and showcasing the character when they've been doing so with the other big parts. It makes sense if they are trying to still keep this possible story twist under wraps until it happens in the show. Then all the PR will kick into high gear.
 
Wait a minute, are you saying that's actually Shazad Latif under Voq's Klingon makeup? Now that can't be true, because he really does look like that Javid Iqbal fella, even under the heavy makeup I think I can recognize his face.

I think so! But I'm not sure. I'm pretty into this mystery. For now I think that it's Shazad Latif playing Voq all this time, and we're going to find out that Javid Iqbal is the stand-in or something.

Ha! This is interesting, I just went back to IMDBpro, I had looked up Javid Iqbal a few days ago and saw he had one other credit besides Discovery, that web series "Guilty" (I think posted earlier in this thread). I just went back and in the last few days, it has split into two listings -- now the Javid Iqbal from "Guilty" is listed on a page with that as his only credit, and the "Javid Iqbal" playing Voq is listed on his own page with Discovery being his only credits.

I wonder if it will turn out Javid Iqbal is just a name they totally invented as cover for Shazad Latif, not anticipating it would be linked to this guy who did one episode of one web series...
 
Ha! This is interesting, I just went back to IMDBpro, I had looked up Javid Iqbal a few days ago and saw he had one other credit besides Discovery, that web series "Guilty" (I think posted earlier in this thread). I just went back and in the last few days, it has split into two listings -- now the Javid Iqbal from "Guilty" is listed on a page with that as his only credit, and the "Javid Iqbal" playing Voq is listed on his own page with Discovery being his only credits.

The facebook page linked in this thread oddly has that bruoght up.

According to comments on a public post on Javid Prime's page, someone else linked the two Javid's then later corrected it. Not to say the real Javid's telling the truth that he's not involved, but he's saying no.

edit: The threads here.
 
That's really odd. I'm not sure if he isn't merely pulling a prank on the Facebook page. Why else would he answer in Klingon (“HIja’”) or say “it was a helluva ride” if he wasn't involved? Plus, I just can't help but seeing his face in Voq's. He (Voq) doesn't look a bit like Shazad Latif, though.
 
That's really odd. I'm not sure if he isn't merely pulling a prank on the Facebook page. Why else would he answer in Klingon (“HIja’”) or say “it was a helluva ride” if he wasn't involved? Plus, I just can't help but seeing his face in Voq's. He (Voq) doesn't look a bit like Shazad Latif, though.

Without taking a side, I'd speculate that the 'ride' was enjoying the confusion. If Javid Prime isn't 'the' Javid, it'd be more attention that he'd be getting normally.

I said I wouldn't take a side, but I can actually get on board with the theory. The credits, lack of information and lack of press presence (or even commenting on it publicly from his camp) is a bit too odd.
 
And the process as I had it described to me doesn't typically allow for that kind of flexibility, although instances of rewrites/additions do clearly happen thanks to that example from @jamestyler.

So...you won't accept that they could have changed Voq's name mid-production, but you're a-okay with the idea that Kol's original actor was given a totally new character and Kol was recast, which is what we have to believe if we take the showrunners' word on things? Why do you find that more plausible in your world of unchanging TV scripts than that a bait-and-switch was planned from the start?
 
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Realistically, what would be the logistics of making a member of one species be able to pass as another, even fooling medical and other scans, transporters, etc?

Physical appearance would have to be radically altered (especially for these grotesque Klingons :wtf:), internal physiology would have to be rearranged, DNA would have to be rewritten. Anything else?

Kor
 
They have just captured Captain NRA so why not take their time and turn him Klingon? He would do more damage to Starfleet than the guy flying one of the shuttlepods!
 
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