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The Galactic Barrier!

and the dark matter halo beyond it.

I also don't care for the hasty assumption people make that, just because the Barrier exists at the single part of the "edge" that's reachable by Starfleet, it must extend around the entire galaxy.

Wait a minute—you mean in "real" science it's okay to assume dark matter that cannot be detected in any way, except through gravity and simply to "preserve the phenomenon," yet "hasty" and unwarranted to assume that Trek's fictional barrier encompasses the entire galaxy? Strict logic only when it's convenient.™
 
I prefer the Q-Squared version of the barrier's origin.

It's Q.

He didn't create the barrier, he *was* the barrier.
 
Wait a minute—you mean in "real" science it's okay to assume dark matter that cannot be detected in any way, except through gravity and simply to "preserve the phenomenon," yet "hasty" and unwarranted to assume that Trek's fictional barrier encompasses the entire galaxy? Strict logic only when it's convenient.™

I guess in fiction, one would often have to go with what simply 'seems' plausible, barring further human knowledge of big, impenetrable subjects on galactic scales. It was much less than a century ago that it was believed that the Milky Way galaxy was, in fact, the entire universe! I don't buy the galactic barrier as presented in Where No Man..., but as a viewer I just go with it, any explanation that makes it more believable is okay with me.

I do wonder if the original writer simply read something and misunderstood it, or what he read was conjectural.
 
Wait a minute—you mean in "real" science it's okay to assume dark matter that cannot be detected in any way, except through gravity and simply to "preserve the phenomenon," yet "hasty" and unwarranted to assume that Trek's fictional barrier encompasses the entire galaxy? Strict logic only when it's convenient.™

No, science assumes nothing. It draws conclusions from observational evidence. There is plenty of observational evidence of stellar motion to require the presence of a gravitational source that is best modeled as a dark matter halo -- not only around our galaxy but around hundreds of others. Evidence for dark matter has been accumulating steadily for over half a century.

By contrast, there is no observational evidence of the presence of a barrier along portions of the Galactic rim that Starfleet has not visited. There simply aren't enough measurements to allow a generalized conclusion. We've never seen anyone try to leave the galaxy from the Delta Quadrant, say, or the Gamma Quadrant. Assuming that the Barrier encloses the entire galaxy when you've only tried leaving it in one particular region is like finding one locked door in a huge amphitheater and assuming that every other one of its hundreds of doors is also locked.

Conversely, we do have evidence of species and entities that have successfully entered our galaxy from outside, such as Sylvia & Korob, the builders of Mudd's androids, the Nacene, and -- at least conjecturally -- the neural parasites, the space amoeba, the Doomsday Machine, and the cosmic cloud from "One of Our Planets is Missing." Of all the extragalactic visitors we know of, only the Kelvans are known to have had any difficulty with the Barrier. So if anything, the preponderance of evidence suggests that the Barrier is anything but an all-encompassing wall around the galaxy.
 
I always liked that explanation, because it makes so much more sense than the idea of a barrier on the "edge" of something that doesn't even have a definable edge. There is no point where the stars stop and empty space begins; it's just a gradual decrease in density. Not to mention that the edge of the stellar disk is not actually the edge of the galaxy at all, because there's also the stellar halo, the gaseous halo, and the dark matter halo beyond it.

If you can define the edges of the Hudson River, the Atlantic Ocean, the planetary atmosphere, and near-Earth space, why could you not define the edges of the Galaxy?
 
If you can define the edges of the Hudson River, the Atlantic Ocean, the planetary atmosphere, and near-Earth space, why could you not define the edges of the Galaxy?

Actually we can't define the edge of the Earth's atmosphere. By international convention, we arbitrarily define "space" as beginning at 100 kilometers' altitude because 99 percent of the atmosphere's mass is below that height -- and also because it's a round number and we like those -- but that other 1 percent tapers off gradually between roughly 100 and 10,000 kilometers -- making the "edge" 100 times wider than the "atmosphere" itself.

The galactic stellar disk is much the same, only on a much, much huger scale. Its "edge" isn't a wall that a starship can run into, it's a gradual tapering off over hundreds or thousands of light years. And like I said, that's just the stellar disk. That's not the whole galaxy, it's just the most visible part.
 
After the events of WNMHGB, Starfleet only allows low-esper rated personnel to serve on starships, they call it the Mitchell Rule.
 
So perhaps there are some star systems that are outside of the Great Barrier. Maybe some the are right in the middle of it. If it is a constructed phenomenon then whoever built it would have arbitrarily defined it during construction.
 
I do not understand why Memory Alpha assumes that the swirling phenomenon seen in the "unknown void" during the extragalactic scenes in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" is the same phenomenon as the negative-energy barrier seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "By Any Other Name".

If you play the original video of these episodes, it is obvious that the extragalactic "unknown void" visual effect is very different from the barrier; each time the Enterprise was inside the Barrier before, it filled the sky and the colors were very different from the later "unknown void". In the "unknown void" you see luminescent swirls against a vaguely black background.

I also don't see why we should ignore Spock's declaration that "we are far outside our own galaxy", even if he can't pin-point the Enterprise's exact location.
 
In some 80s fanon tech manual I recall it speculating that the barrier was an artifact, erected for some unknown reason around the galaxy.
My manual said it behaved differently depending the speed you enter it. At low speed, it bounds particles and objects back. At low ar it causes the psychic effects and makes ships turn around as Enterprise did to prevent more damage. At high speeds, the ship can pass through it. It blocks particles and light coming from the galaxy, making it hard to find your way back. This was the primary purpose of the barrier. Some aliens erected it to keep invaders out.
 
If you can define the edges of the Hudson River, the Atlantic Ocean, the planetary atmosphere, and near-Earth space, why could you not define the edges of the Galaxy?

Actually we can't define the edge of the Earth's atmosphere. By international convention, we arbitrarily define "space" as beginning at 100 kilometers' altitude because 99 percent of the atmosphere's mass is below that height -- and also because it's a round number and we like those -- but that other 1 percent tapers off gradually between roughly 100 and 10,000 kilometers -- making the "edge" 100 times wider than the "atmosphere" itself.

In what way is that not a definition of the edge of Earth's atmosphere? I mean, you say it right there: we define the boundary of the atmosphere as this particular altitude. There's points obviously inside the atmosphere; there's points obviously outside it; somewhere in-between, the status changes.

That we could define the boundary as being somewhere else without it making a huge difference in what we use the boundary for --- and we do; the United States Air Force puts the boundary at 60 miles above sea level (and sea level itself is not an easy thing to define!) rather than 100 kilometers --- doesn't change the fact that we can and do define the boundary.
 
The way I see it, Star Trek's galaxy isn't ours, it's a fiction very loosely based upon it. It does have an edge (because otherwise the crew and Starfleet are complete muppets for making such an obvious error), and a magical pink forcefield surrounding it. And the galaxy's centre, instead of a supermassive black hole, is another magical forcefield surrounding a solitary planet where an angry blue floating head lives.

Alternately, there is a portal in the centre which leads to the world of magic and wizards.

These things are as realistic as the Mario Kart rainbow bridge in Thor and need just as much reconciliation with reality as that does. IMHO. YMMV.
 
So perhaps there are some star systems that are outside of the Great Barrier. Maybe some the are right in the middle of it. If it is a constructed phenomenon then whoever built it would have arbitrarily defined it during construction.

The problem is that the dialogue in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is full of references to the galaxy having a clearly defined edge, even before the crew encounters the barrier. Their whole mission is to probe beyond the edge of the galaxy. Kelso says "Approaching galaxy edge, sir." Spock mentions the Valiant getting "about half a light year out of the galaxy," implying that the edge is so clearly defined that it can be narrowed to a fraction of a light year.

(Not to mention, what was the point of probing beyond the "edge" anyway? If there actually were a point where the stars stopped, anything beyond it would be too far to reach.)



I do not understand why Memory Alpha assumes that the swirling phenomenon seen in the "unknown void" during the extragalactic scenes in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" is the same phenomenon as the negative-energy barrier seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "By Any Other Name".

It wasn't meant to be, but viewers have always interpreted it that way in an attempt to create a sense of continuity. Memory Alpha is just following the lead established by the Star Trek Concordance back in the '70s.

Besides, the alternative is to take the episode's bizarre cosmology literally. The writer didn't seem to understand the difference between a galaxy and a universe, assuming that the region beyond the galaxy was some bizarre alien dimension with no recognizable points of reference, rather than just empty space. You wouldn't need a Medusan to find your way back into the galaxy -- just turn around 180 degrees and point yourself back toward the big swirly clump of stars.



Actually we can't define the edge of the Earth's atmosphere. By international convention, we arbitrarily define "space" as beginning at 100 kilometers' altitude because 99 percent of the atmosphere's mass is below that height -- and also because it's a round number and we like those -- but that other 1 percent tapers off gradually between roughly 100 and 10,000 kilometers -- making the "edge" 100 times wider than the "atmosphere" itself.

In what way is that not a definition of the edge of Earth's atmosphere? I mean, you say it right there: we define the boundary of the atmosphere as this particular altitude. There's points obviously inside the atmosphere; there's points obviously outside it; somewhere in-between, the status changes.

As I said, the Kármán line is an arbitrary convention agreed upon internationally to represent the beginning of "outer space" for the purposes of record-keeping. The only physical significance it has is that it's the approximate altitude at which the atmosphere becomes too thin to support aeronautic flight, so anything that can fly above that height is considered a spacecraft rather than an aircraft. (Or rather, it's the altitude at which the velocity needed to keep a plane aloft in the thinning atmosphere equals orbital velocity -- so beyond that point it's orbiting rather than flying.) So it's a functional definition as far as aviation is concerned. But it's not a physical definition of the edge of the atmosphere, since there are layers of the atmosphere that extend far higher. The Kármán line, as you can see in the image at the Wikipedia link, is actually in the lower part of the thermosphere, which is the second-highest layer of the atmosphere.

Nor is the Kármán line even universally agreed upon as a boundary. It's used to represent the "edge of space" by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale, but not by NASA, not by the United States, and not by international law. It's a convenient fiction, nothing more.

And even beyond that, as I said, it's a matter of scale. It's not as if the atmospheric density instantaneously drops by a huge amount at the Kármán line. The actual point of transition from aeronautic to orbital flight is not at exactly 100 km, but we arbitrarily set the boundary at 100 km because, as I said, we like round numbers. The actual dropoff is gradual enough that the difference of a few kilometers doesn't matter. And when it comes to the edge of the galaxy, we're talking about a scale millions of times larger, with a margin of error of dozens of parsecs rather than kilometers. It would be meaningless for something as proportionately tiny as a starship to define anything remotely resembling a clear boundary.


That we could define the boundary as being somewhere else without it making a huge difference in what we use the boundary for --- and we do; the United States Air Force puts the boundary at 60 miles above sea level (and sea level itself is not an easy thing to define!) rather than 100 kilometers --- doesn't change the fact that we can and do define the boundary.

But human definition doesn't alter physical reality. You can draw an arbitrary line anywhere, but it doesn't actually cause the galaxy to behave the way Peeples portrays it in "Where No Man," with the stars suddenly stopping beyond a certain point that can be demarcated to within a fraction of a light year.

And saying "The aliens who created the barrier put it in such-and-such a place" doesn't work, because the characters in "Where No Man" were aware of the "edge of the galaxy" well before they discovered the barrier.
 
The problem is that the dialogue in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is full of references to the galaxy having a clearly defined edge, even before the crew encounters the barrier. Their whole mission is to probe beyond the edge of the galaxy. Kelso says "Approaching galaxy edge, sir." Spock mentions the Valiant getting "about half a light year out of the galaxy," implying that the edge is so clearly defined that it can be narrowed to a fraction of a light year.

If memory serves, didn't James Blish provide a bit more clarity in the novelization? I seem to remember something like 'of course there is no clearly defined edge of the galaxy, but the point beyond which its farthest star lie' or words to that effect.

It used to bug me that so many writers would use terms like galaxy, solar system and universe interchangeably, but I wonder now if writers of the past merely were referencing outdated science from their school years, rather than demonstrating outright ignorance or disintersst?
 
The problem is that the dialogue in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is full of references to the galaxy having a clearly defined edge, even before the crew encounters the barrier.
I don't see why that should be a problem. Everything actually points to our heroes already knowing that the barrier exists, and being on a mission to prod that barrier to see if it's safe for others to go through. Kirk accomplishes the mission - answer: "Not safe".

Nowhere in the dialogue do our heroes appear surprised at the presence or existence of the barrier. They have "their probe" to conduct, and they conduct it, despite the diversion from the recorder marker recovery - and that probe involves them making a scheduled stop just before "galaxy edge", doing final checks, and then going through that edge, while surveying its surprising qualities. There's no indication the heroes would be "discovering" the edge, any more than Shackleton or Amundsen would have discovered Antarctica on their way to greater things and more abstract achievements.

We might well postulate that this is a carefully planned and executed probing project rather than a random bump on the road of a daring mission to the interstellar void. There's the Delta Vega station right next to Kirk's ship - hopefully not by coincidence, considering it really is at point blank range and Kirk knows its specs by rote. Possibly the fourth major way station for Project Vega, the systematic effort to create a logistically supported path from the inner galaxy to the edge and then beyond, Antarctic research style?

You can draw an arbitrary line anywhere, but it doesn't actually cause the galaxy to behave the way Peeples portrays it in "Where No Man," with the stars suddenly stopping beyond a certain point that can be demarcated to within a fraction of a light year.
There's no "stopping of stars" evident in the episode, though, restoring full validity to the concept. The Trek galaxy just has this property of being shrouded in a funny, visually rather one-dimensional phenomenon that our main heroes are physiologically immune to, even if several others aren't.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If memory serves, didn't James Blish provide a bit more clarity in the novelization? I seem to remember something like 'of course there is no clearly defined edge of the galaxy, but the point beyond which its farthest star lie' or words to that effect.

Yes, he did, but that still doesn't make the barrier any less bizarre a concept.


It used to bug me that so many writers would use terms like galaxy, solar system and universe interchangeably, but I wonder now if writers of the past merely were referencing outdated science from their school years, rather than demonstrating outright ignorance or disintersst?

Well, there's never been any astronomical ambiguity about the difference between a galaxy and a solar system. Anyone who confuses those two is simply getting it wrong. There was once a tendency to refer to galaxies as "island universes," but getting the concepts of galaxies and universes mixed up, in the way "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" did, would have to result from misunderstanding those old usages. So the fault is still with the writers, or with their science teachers or textbook writers for conveying the information misleadingly.
 
Yes, he did, but that still doesn't make the barrier any less bizarre a concept.

True...but at least a half of the problem was addressed somewhat! :lol: Incidentally, how many of us thought of this barrier when Kirk mentioned 'the great barrier' in Star Trek V?

The whole 'barrier around the galaxy' reminds me too much of the Dan Dare comics, where there was supposedly that flame belt encircling Venus! :wtf:


So the fault is still with the writers, or with their science teachers or textbook writers for conveying the information misleadingly.

That's a problem, too. Many teachers (and others) seem to default to having an 'answer', rather that admit not knowing. That's not fair to kids. For all we know, some teacher planted this seed in the head of a future writer, which would eventually lead to this very discussion!

That reminds me of Space:1999, hardly a go-to source for scientific accuracy. I remember one episode where Koenig says "we're billions of miles from Jupiter". What's the big deal about that? That's even true here on Earth!
 
Assuming the barrier seen WNMHGB and BAON and the void seen ITITNB as the same thing might mstem from the reuse of footage from WNMHGB of the ship exiting the barrier. Hence the confusion.

But as someone pointed out upthread the depiction of the interiors of the two zones are distintly different befitting trying to convey two different things.

The barrier referred to in TFF was just bad writing.
 
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