Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

[Dick Whitman]

I do wonder what the long term plan is with Caitlyn and KIller Frost. She is so much more interesting as KF that curing her would be be a huge disappointment. I do not think her using her powers for good and becoming a hero would work. So much of what makes her performance interesting is the villainy. Would be rather dull to have her go back to mostly giving techno jargon but now with white hair. This show is still about the Flash. Even if Caitlyn becomes an Ice powered hero she would only occasionally use her powers. Similar to how rarely Cisco is full Vibe. Most of the time is role on the showis still as the tech guy.

 

[Snaploud]

Impressive from a digital-FX perspective to see that pulled off in "live-action," yes, but I couldn't help wondering, what's keeping that ice slide suspended in midair? A lot of times when I've seen that effect done for Iceman or whoever in comics or animation, they show that there are "icicle" support columns extending to the ground, but this was just a large, heavy, brittle structure that somehow managed to retain its shape despite only being supported at one end. Seeing it in live-action made it harder to suspend disbelief about its, err, unbelievable suspension.

I'm no expert, but the show has indicated that Killer Frost has the ability to produce a temperature of absolute zero. Pure substances at absolute zero theoretically become perfect crystals, which would be much sturdier than regular ice.

 

[Jax]

Well it was a epic reveal but one we all pretty much saw because they weren't exactly discreet with the breadcrumbs though I didn't want to believe it because I don't understand why Future Barry would cause his own pain by killing Iris. Iris cannot be the reason he becomes evil in the first place surley? because that involves him becoming Savitar after her death but how can her original death before he time travels be at the hands of Savitar (its so hard to put into words). Are we thinking something else caused Barry to go full evil? Also why not kill the Doctor by yourself Savitar, he could do it anytime? the whole episode had a huge plot hole.

Also the final shot of the episode had the street light cuts right across Evil Barry's face that almost makes him look like Reverse Flash with the evil glowing eyes, I wonder if that was on purpose because it was a nice touch.

 

[Christopher]

I'm no expert, but the show has indicated that Killer Frost has the ability to produce a temperature of absolute zero. Pure substances at absolute zero theoretically become perfect crystals, which would be much sturdier than regular ice.

But reaching absolute zero is physically impossible. There are quantum uncertainty effects that guarantee that an object's energy can never be reduced completely to zero. So you might as well say "it's magic," which is essentially what it is.

And I don't care how sturdy something is -- a really, really long arch that's only anchored at one end is not going to be stable. At the very least, it will sag. And even if it's miraculously superstrong and super-rigid, the ground it's attached to is not, so once it gets long enough and heavy enough, the leverage is going to tear out the pavement or whatever that it's anchored to.

 

[Romulan_spy]

why Future Barry would cause his own pain by killing Iris. Iris cannot be the reason he becomes evil in the first place surley? because that involves him becoming Savitar after her death but how can her original death before he time travels be at the hands of Savitar (its so hard to put into words). Are we thinking something else caused Barry to go full evil?

Hence my theory that Iris' death is the divergence point in the timeline that leads to Savatar. So future Barry, once he becomes Savatar, has to go back and kill Iris in order to create himself. So, I think Iris' death, by breaking Barry emotionally and splitting up the team as we saw in the episode "Once and Future Flash", started the process that would lead to Savatar. But the nasty scar on future Barry's face suggests that something else traumatic happens after Iris' death but before he becomes Savatar. So yes, it is likely that something else happens after Iris' death that completes Barry's journey to becoming Savatar.

 

[LJones41]

I do wonder what the long term plan is with Caitlyn and KIller Frost. She is so much more interesting as KF that curing her would be be a huge disappointment. I do not think her using her powers for good and becoming a hero would work.

Why not? Caitlin's powers should not be the problem. The problem has always been Caitlin's emotional issues and her willingness to allow her powers to dictate her emotions. What she really needs is a good psychiatrist. That woman has so many emotional issues that one can write a series of essays on them.

Well it was a epic reveal but one we all pretty much saw because they weren't exactly discreet with the breadcrumbs though I didn't want to believe it because I don't understand why Future Barry would cause his own pain by killing Iris. Iris cannot be the reason he becomes evil in the first place surley? because that involves him becoming Savitar after her death but how can her original death before he time travels be at the hands of Savitar (its so hard to put into words). Are we thinking something else caused Barry to go full evil? Also why not kill the Doctor by yourself Savitar, he could do it anytime? the whole episode had a huge plot hole.

The real plot hole is that many viewers don't really know the entire story. And yet, many are already pretending that they do. If the story still doesn't make sense by the end of the season, then there will be a reason to complain about "plot holes". Or is this about being upset over the idea of a future Barry Allen becoming a super villain?

 

[Romulan_spy]

And I don't care how sturdy something is -- a really, really long arch that's only anchored at one end is not going to be stable. At the very least, it will sag. And even if it's miraculously superstrong and super-rigid, the ground it's attached to is not, so once it gets long enough and heavy enough, the leverage is going to tear out the pavement or whatever that it's anchored to.

I just assume that the ice trails were cold enough as to be strong enough to support her weight temporarily while she was gliding on them. Presumably, x minutes later, the ice trails would have collapsed under their weight.

 

[Snaploud]

But reaching absolute zero is physically impossible. There are quantum uncertainty effects that guarantee that an object's energy can never be reduced completely to zero. So you might as well say "it's magic," which is essentially what it is.

I'm just going with what the show has stated. The show claims Killer Frost has the ability to produce absolute zero, and the properties of a pure substance at absolute zero are theoretically very different from regular ice.

And I don't care how sturdy something is -- a really, really long arch that's only anchored at one end is not going to be stable. At the very least, it will sag. And even if it's miraculously superstrong and super-rigid, the ground it's attached to is not, so once it gets long enough and heavy enough, the leverage is going to tear out the pavement or whatever that it's anchored to.

It only has to stay up for a few minutes at most, and she could have been starting new tracks or supports offscreen.

Alternatively, her powers could be even weirder than we've been led to believe. The ability to produce absolute zero, assuming it is even possible, would be a substantial feat. We don't know how it works, so we can't predict if she has other unknown powers (such as the ability to manipulate gravity).

 

[Christopher]

It only has to stay up for a few minutes at most, and she could have been starting new tracks or supports offscreen.

The point is, they could've animated those supports in to begin with, as other screen interpretations of this power have done. If the audience has to handwave an explanation after the fact, that's still a shortcoming in the depiction. I'm not talking about whether there's an imaginary explanation in the imaginary universe, I'm talking about the real live people who created the show and the decisions they made in doing so. I'm a creator myself, and I make decisions when I tell a story, so I evaluate stories in terms of the decisions made by their creators and what they could've done better.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I think that I'm in the camp of leaving Killer Frost a villain. I'm a traditionalist so I think villains should be villains. It also makes her fall so tragic because we know Caitlin was a good person. The only problem I see with her being a villain is that she would likely have to downgrade her status as a series regular. After all, the show is Flash, not Killer Frost, and the rest of the series can't be between Barry and Killer Frost.

Plus, Killer Frost is more of a Firestorm enemy. Caitlin was a very good character on the show--I liked her at least--but Killer Frost is the villain, and I think now that she's here, she should be kept that way. And yes, she should kill someone. I'd like to see her irredeemable.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I do wonder what the long term plan is with Caitlyn and KIller Frost. She is so much more interesting as KF that curing her would be be a huge disappointment. I do not think her using her powers for good and becoming a hero would work. So much of what makes her performance interesting is the villainy. Would be rather dull to have her go back to mostly giving techno jargon but now with white hair. This show is still about the Flash. Even if Caitlyn becomes an Ice powered hero she would only occasionally use her powers. Similar to how rarely Cisco is full Vibe. Most of the time is role on the showis still as the tech guy.

Going back to regular Caitlyn all the time would be a huge mistake indeed. I see a few alternative possibilities:
- Have Caitlyn look like regular Caitlyn again (no more white hair unless she is using her powers) but keep her memories as KF and powers that she can control. So she could use her KF powers from time to time to help the team without becoming evil KF. This could complete her character arc where she has now come to terms with having KF inside her but it no longer controls her.
- Have Caitlyn remain Killer Frost permanently and make her a villain. She could be one of the main villains in season 4 so she would appear frequently throughout the season. This would keep the actress as a regular cast member. I heard a rumor that the season 4 villain will be a non-speedster.
- Have Caitlyn remain KF permanently but make her a semi "good guy". KF would still have a villainous side but sometimes help Flash and do good. If the actress still wants to be a regular, they would have to find a way to make KF a main character. If the actress no longer wants to be a regular, they could make KF a guest character that only shows up from time to time.

 

[Romulan_spy]

The only problem I see with her being a villain is that she would likely have to downgrade her status as a series regular.

Yeah, I really like the actress a lot so I would hate for her to leave the show or be downgraded to a guest character. On the other hand, I love what she has done with the character and want KF to stay. Maybe KF could go over to Legends? If they make KF into a "good guy" villain, she would be well suited for Legends since that show is all about rogues doing good. it might be interesting to see KF join the Legends cast.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I think they should downgrade her from her current status as series regular. The cast is getting way too big as it. I have never been a big fan of "Team Flash" which is not much of a team at all. Most of the time it's a large group of characters standing around Star Labs debating Barry's choices or watching him in the field on a video screen giving him advice by radio.

I do not think anyone needs to be killed off. I think it would be better for some of the characters to be reoccurring. So they have lives of their own outside of Barry. Than hopefully their appearances would have more meaning when they do appear. Whether as allies or villians.

Or be like Arrow and Supergirl where some of their billed regular cast members really only appear in limited number of episodes a season.

 

[Christopher]

The only problem I see with her being a villain is that she would likely have to downgrade her status as a series regular. After all, the show is Flash, not Killer Frost, and the rest of the series can't be between Barry and Killer Frost.

Unless... Why couldn't KF be a season-long big bad in her own right? I mean, think about it. Part of what makes Savitar such a potent villain is that he knows all the team's secrets and weaknesses. The same goes for Caitlin. She'd also have an edge in that they'd be reluctant to go all-out against her, as we saw with Cisco here. Plus, she's a brilliant scientist in her own right, so she has the brains to be a big bad.

And why should Supergirl and Vixen be the only shows that have female big bads? Arrow has had Merlyn, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, Damien Darhk, and Prometheus. Flash has had Reverse Flash, Zoom, and Savitar. Legends has had Vandal Savage and an all-male Legion of Doom. Letting Killer Frost be the big bad for a season would be an overdue change of pace.

Maybe KF could go over to Legends? If they make KF into a "good guy" villain, she would be well suited for Legends since that show is all about rogues doing good. it might be interesting to see KF join the Legends cast.

That idea has possibilities too. Imagine how Mick would react to another cold-themed ex-villain taking Snart's place -- especially a "skirt."

 

[Morpheus 02]

Do time remnants expect to die? I know the first one did. But did the Savitar remnant do so? Maybe he chickened out at the last minute? Or maybe he survived what should have been death, and was jealous that "real Barry" got to be with Iris and he didn't.

We'll see in the next couple of weeks, huh?

I still feel the Killer Frost flip felt too sudden and for no reason other than Caitlin's paranoia come true. And I feel like they need a more nurturing personality...kinda like Simmons on Agent of Shield (who is in a similar position). I will miss that...

I wonder if Julian will be sacrificed to save Caitlin?

 

[Gryffindorian]

I don't think that is it at all. I think Savatar is from the timeline where Iris dies. So Savatar has to kill her in order to create the timeline that creates himself. Crazy time paradox!

This theory makes sense, since Savitar already knew every single word that Barry was going to tell Caitlyn when he confronted her.

 

[Scout101]

Eh, not sure I'm interested in Caitlyn as KF full time. Too much moustache-twirling, at the very least she needs some sort of plan or motivation.

And reason I think you have to keep going back to the speedster well for villain is that, well, Flash is too fast. If you can move in the blink of an eye (plus time travel), regular non-speedster villains shouldn't be much of a challenge. Flash should never get hit by anyone shooting a cold gun, flame thrower, or any of the other nonsense. Not sure how he keeps getting into fist fights with non-speedster villains, doesn't make sense. Fight would be over before the bad guy had his fist even cocked back.

Yes, there's precedent for Lex Luthor being a Superman villain, and brains being able to keep up with brawn, but even that felt like a stretch sometimes, and he usually had to have Kryptonite and/or hostages as part of the plan. Otherwise, about halfway through the pre-fight monologue, he'd blink and find himself in a cell.

Once the good guy is this powerful, you either need to find more powerful bad guys, or contrive more and more ways to depower the good guy. At this point, Flash is powerful enough and know what he's doing, so smaller challenges (even if you like Caitlyn and don't want to really hurt her) shouldn't prove much of an obstacle.

 

[dahj]

I think that I'm in the camp of leaving Killer Frost a villain. I'm a traditionalist so I think villains should be villains.

Well she's a hero now in the comics, so....

Unless... Why couldn't KF be a season-long big bad in her own right?

I would not mind having evil Caitlin on for a whole season, maybe she could lead a team of rogues against Team Flash. A team vs team season would be an interesting new dynamic on the show.

Maybe KF could go over to Legends?

That could work to.

Hence my theory that Iris' death is the divergence point in the timeline that leads to Savatar.

I think I'm gonna give up trying to figure out how this is supposed to work.
If Savitar is a time remnant from an alternate timeline, how does he have the memories of what is happening in this timeline? Because events of this episode didn't happen before, they forked a new timeline different from the original future one we saw, the only way he could know what's gonna happen is if he's a continuation of this episode's Barry, but why would this episode's Barry go bad considering he spent the last few episodes learning lessons on how not to give into grief and isolation?
Ugh. I hate temporal mechanics.

I'm just gonna stick to important questions, like what was H.R. doing on that roof ten episodes ago?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her brain chemistry was effected by the change in temperature, so her mind is not working properly, and therefore her emotions and reasoning faculties are not working properly.

Her fluids have turned to sludge, meanwhile superconductivity is increasing her speed of thought to the point that she can win a fight with Barry.

 

[Christopher]

This theory makes sense, since Savitar already knew every single word that Barry was going to tell Caitlyn when he confronted her.

Actually, that part shouldn't make sense. Haven't they already altered the timeline by bringing back Tracy's future research and letting her in on it 4 years early? And by Barry figuring out Savitar's identity when his 2024 self never had (well, unless he was lying)?

And reason I think you have to keep going back to the speedster well for villain is that, well, Flash is too fast. If you can move in the blink of an eye (plus time travel), regular non-speedster villains shouldn't be much of a challenge. Flash should never get hit by anyone shooting a cold gun, flame thrower, or any of the other nonsense. Not sure how he keeps getting into fist fights with non-speedster villains, doesn't make sense. Fight would be over before the bad guy had his fist even cocked back.

Big-baddery isn't just about powers, it's about cunning and master plans and the ability to hurt the hero on a personal level. For a baddie-of-the-week, sure, you can reduce it to just the level of the physical fight, but for a season-long villain, we're talking about a chess match, a battle of wits. If Caitlin was smart enough to be an effective member of Team Flash, she's smart enough to be an effective adversary for it.

Once the good guy is this powerful, you either need to find more powerful bad guys, or contrive more and more ways to depower the good guy. At this point, Flash is powerful enough and know what he's doing, so smaller challenges (even if you like Caitlyn and don't want to really hurt her) shouldn't prove much of an obstacle.

Why is Killer Frost a "smaller" challenge? We've seen that she has the power to make it snow over the entire city in a matter of seconds. That's a staggering degree of energy control. The amount of energy contained in a powerful weather system can easily surpass the energy of a nuclear explosion. Storm of the X-Men is considered to have nigh-godlike power because of her ability to manipulate the weather on a large scale. Potentially, Killer Frost could be one of the most devastatingly powerful villains we've seen in the Arrowverse.

Heck, the magnitude of the damage she could bring down on the city means that the Flash might not be able to risk fighting with her directly due to the collateral damage to innocent bystanders. She could ice in airports and hospitals and keep Team Flash busy saving civilians. If the writers were creative enough in developing the potential of her powers, she could be a truly formidable foe.