Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

[Morpheus 02]

I thought it was a fun episode.. fluffy, but not necessarily a waste.

I think Music Meister was decent...nice that the scenario was done by a "villain"... but agree he must be related to Myx in some way... maybe that's why he wanted Kara to have a love back in her life..to show Myx how wrong he is?

Also, the set up for the musical...works for me. Again, not treating this too seriously, but "reasonable " for me to accept the circumstances. It's kinda like the Speed Force...so with that, I hope they don't have another Speed Force episode within weeks of the next musical.



Also, Millie's "two dads"... just pointed out to me how none of the CW shows has a middle-age-to-older-woman as a main character. Yeah, I know it's a CW show...but they have 3 middle age (and up) men as regulars, who can sing, no less. Also, feels like they had to force in a role for Garber in that way.

For the next time, I would have liked for more singing...maybe the "forced" thing would be that they can only communicate in the scenario THROUGH singing? Maybe cut out that more "real world" time to make it happen.

And singing in "real life".... I think Barry doing that to Iris as part of the proposal actually makes sense. Doesn't work for everyone, but I think it's fine for Grant Gustin. Depending on your life, there might not be a lot of singing, but wouldn't hurt to see it again.


All I know about Dr. Horrible is that Neil Patrick Harris is in it and its popular. Is there a way to make Dr. Horrible part of the scenario?

One other thing that annoyed me -- Mon-El and Kara are back together... Well , I read that they are now dating in real life (she and her old boyfriend broke up???), so I guess we might be stuck with him. I was hoping he'd get sent to the Phantom Zone...then he can come back in a Legion of SUper Heroes episode.

And one last thought... could the writers of Glee maybe help write the next musical episode? It might help to make the episode actually feel like a musical?

 

[Noname Given]

So why did Music Meister show up and how did he know about the Love problems and why did he decide to "fix" them? Lame story line. They were in a world built in their minds, however a death there was real death. Cute show, sort of, but very weak. Not enough music to actually be a musical and not enough "plausible" story.

He' semi-omnipotent, so in effect he can do what he likes when he likes (at least that's how the character came across in the writing).

 

[Christopher]

That's kind of the whole Music Meister thing--making people sing against their will. In the real world, we don't break into song, and the Music Meister absolutely makes people do that. He turns life into a musical, and that's a really fun villain.

That's the B&tB version's schtick, yes. But this one seemed to be more about free will. He trapped them in a fantasy world, sure, but then he left it up to them to figure things out for themselves.

Besides, we've already seen musical episodes based on villains or environments that compelled people to sing -- it was also done in "Once More, With Feeling" and Xena's "The Bitter Suite" as well as "Mayhem of the Music Meister!" (Generally it's either that or a hallucination -- at least three hospital shows have done episodes where patients had neurological conditions that made them imagine people singing.) I just think it could be an interesting and fun alternative if they had to sing on purpose for some crimefighting-related reason.

Source material exists for a reason.

Yes, as a starting point to build from, not a straitjacket on creativity. All creativity is a process of change. Often, an idea that starts in one form changes into something totally different by the time the creator finishes it. Because we have to follow the ideas wherever they lead us, even when it surprises us. Heck, especially when it surprises us.

If a writer plays in someone else's sandbox, he should respect the source material. Otherwise, create someone original.

Everything "original" is a remix of pre-existing ideas, or a response to them. Ideas aren't pulled out of thin air, they're built out of familiar ingredients, shared cultural tropes and patterns. We create by taking what already exists and transforming it into something different, putting the pieces together in new ways. If a chef invents a new recipe, it's still made with ingredients and methods that have been used in countless other recipes, and still falls into a familiar category of dish. If a painter does a new painting, it still uses familiar colors and techniques, and in most cases is based on familiar images and concepts like people, landscapes, known objects, etc. Novelty and originality do not require an absolute disconnect with what came before.

This version of the Music Meister was not an adaptation. He was a completely different character and only had the name in common with the original. So why not just give him a different name?

Because of the one fundamental thing he did have in common with the original: The fact that his only reason for existence was as an excuse to do a musical episode and show off the cast members' singing voices. They served the same metatextual purpose, even though they did so in completely dissimilar ways.

Otherwise, yes, respect the source material.

That's a pretty silly thing to say about a character who's only had one significant prior appearance. Generally B:TB&TB was very reverent toward its Silver and Bronze Age source material, but if they'd been bound to that, they would've had the villain of their musical episode be the Fiddler. His power to hypnotize with music could've been easily enough tweaked to have him hypnotize people into singing. But instead, they chose to create a different character.

Again: The source material is just the start of the journey. It sets you off in a given direction, but there's no telling where the journey will end up taking you from there.

 

[Kirk Prime]

That's the B&tB version's schtick, yes. But this one seemed to be more about free will. He trapped them in a fantasy world, sure, but then he left it up to them to figure things out for themselves.

Besides, we've already seen musical episodes based on villains or environments that compelled people to sing -- it was also done in "Once More, With Feeling" and Xena's "The Bitter Suite" as well as "Mayhem of the Music Meister!" (Generally it's either that or a hallucination -- at least three hospital shows have done episodes where patients had neurological conditions that made them imagine people singing.) I just think it could be an interesting and fun alternative if they had to sing on purpose for some crimefighting-related reason.

But how he was used in the cartoon is who the villain is, and seeing a live version of him would be fresh. It doesn't have to be perfect down to the costume, but what we got wasn't an adaptation. It was a completely different character.

I think there was an episode of Justice League where Batman had to sing.

Yes, as a starting point to build from, not a straitjacket on creativity. All creativity is a process of change. Often, an idea that starts in one form changes into something totally different by the time the creator finishes it. Because we have to follow the ideas wherever they lead us, even when it surprises us. Heck, especially when it surprises us.

There are certain traits and elements to characters that if they aren't included, they aren't the character--and if that happens, then they should just pick a different name. This version of the Music Meister did not have anything resembling the source material. You're right--it's a starting point, but here, it wasn't. If this character had a different name, I wouldn't even begin to think he had anything to do with Music Meister.

I don't mind original characters at all. Looking at your scenario, where things surprise us and leads us in a new direction, if the writer feels that strongly and those changes make the episode, or the series better, or at least gets to where they want, there's nothing wrong with that--but at that point, if the source material is so far off, just change the character's name and do the story.

What did the words "Music Meister" add to this episode? The character made perfect sense as used in the cartoon. But here? Music was a coincidence, not his schtick.

If you're going to write a story and your villain is a Kryptonian, you don't name him Lex Luthor. If your villain is a weather controlling scientist who uses a freeze gun, you don't call him The Joker.

That's a pretty silly thing to say about a character who's only had one significant prior appearance. Generally B:TB&TB was very reverent toward its Silver and Bronze Age source material, but if they'd been bound to that, they would've had the villain of their musical episode be the Fiddler. His power to hypnotize with music could've been easily enough tweaked to have him hypnotize people into singing. But instead, they chose to create a different character.

If for creative reasons that's what they wanted, that's fine. But like you say, they created a different character. So they should have used a different name. It's actually the easiest thing in the world.

 

[Christopher]

If for creative reasons that's what they wanted, that's fine. But like you say, they created a different character. So they should have used a different name. It's actually the easiest thing in the world.

Look, I would've been happier if they hadn't changed quite so much, but as a creative person myself, I feel very threatened when people start tossing off rhetoric about what creators "should" do, as if it were some sort of compulsory restriction on our freedom of speech. You're only talking about your own personal tastes. That is not a binding requirement on anyone else, unless you're paying them to create something to your specifications. Aside from that, the only thing that artists "should" do is what feels right to them.

 

[JasonJ]

If there is one thing I hate about Iris now is that the writers have forgotten that she has a job. We have all this soapy drama and Iris is more of a charactiture at this point than an actual character.

I want to know how she and Barry can afford that super nice studio apartment. I'm not sure what forensic scientists make working at a local PD, but a news journalist in a small outfit like the one Iris works for, can't be rolling in cash. Maybe some fund from S.T.A.R. Labs helps offset the rent.

 

[Christopher]

^Barry inherited STAR Labs from Thawne-Wells, and apparently quite a bit of money along with it. Although HR did say that part of the reason for opening the museum was to replenish their dwindling coffers.

Anyway, it's a pretty standard TV conceit for main characters to have much better apartments than they could realistically afford. Although I read that the Supergirl producers actually worked out a backstory for how Kara could afford her loft on an assistant's salary -- basically she works off the lease by doing maintenance and repairs around the building.

 

[dahj]

just pointed out to me how none of the CW shows has a middle-age-to-older-woman as a main character

I miss Moira and Cat.

 

[Snaploud]

I finally found the songs on amazon digital music. I think I'll just get Runnin' Home to You, but I haven't decided between the regular and guitar versions.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XSPG93...e:1249096011,p_n_feature_browse-bin:625150011

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I miss Moira and Cat.

Oh yeah.
A duet between Cat and Joe would have been something (special guest song writer: Vonda Shepard? )

 

[Kirk Prime]

Look, I would've been happier if they hadn't changed quite so much, but as a creative person myself, I feel very threatened when people start tossing off rhetoric about what creators "should" do, as if it were some sort of compulsory restriction on our freedom of speech. You're only talking about your own personal tastes. That is not a binding requirement on anyone else, unless you're paying them to create something to your specifications. Aside from that, the only thing that artists "should" do is what feels right to them.

It's hardly a restriction of freedom of speech to require a writer to work within the boundaries of things that they didn't create. That's a choice a writer makes when playing in someone else's sandbox. The counter to that problem is to create something original, which I feel that the writers in this episode did. Darren Criss wasn't the Music Meister. He was a different character and the only thing the writers needed to do was change his name. The biggest problem here was that they forced the name on the character.

Why is he the Music Meister? He only sang one song, and according to the story, HE didn't create the musical situation--Barry and Kara did. So again, if Barry and Kara liked kung fu movies, would he still be the Music Meister?

You don't see that as a legit criticism? That doesn't make me like the episode less, but it's a fair question.

Anyway, it's a pretty standard TV conceit for main characters to have much better apartments than they could realistically afford. Although I read that the Supergirl producers actually worked out a backstory for how Kara could afford her loft on an assistant's salary -- basically she works off the lease by doing maintenance and repairs around the building.

Maybe the Danvers' have money. Mrs. Danvers could be rich herself and be helping Kara out. Parents do that when they can.

 

[Christopher]

It's hardly a restriction of freedom of speech to require a writer to work within the boundaries of things that they didn't create. That's a choice a writer makes when playing in someone else's sandbox.

Nonsense. Countless adaptations have reinvented their source characters in radically new ways. Many Arrowverse characters are massively changed from the source. The comics' Felicity Smoak was a haughty, brown-haired computer-company manager who was a rival of Firestorm and eventually became an in-law of Ronnie Raymond. She was not the daughter of the Calculator either. The comics' Speedy was Mia Dearden, a drug addict who was not biologically related to Oliver Queen. The comics' Artemis was not Evelyn Sharp, but a woman actually named Artemis Crock, daughter of the villains Tigress and Sportsmaster. The comics' Mr. Terrific was Michael Holt, not Curtis, and he wasn't gay. The comics' Jefferson Jackson was a football-player friend of Ronnie's who never became a superhero. The comics' Time Masters were just a small group of people who accompanied Rip Hunter on his time journeys. The comics' Gypsy was an illusion-caster, not a viber. The comics' Amazo was a power-mimicking android, not a cargo ship. The comics' Anatoli Knyazev is a cybernetically enhanced government assassin called KGBeast, not a member of the Bratva. The comics' Vandal Savage is a 50,000-year-old immortal caveman with no connection to Hawkman or Hawkgirl; the show merged him with Hawkman villain Hath-Set.

And of course, other adaptations do the same thing. Gotham reinvents comics characters in totally insane ways. The Marvel Cinematic Universe takes its liberties too -- a number of Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter characters like Lance Hunter, Mack Mackenzie, and Roger Dooley have had nothing in common with their comics counterparts but their names.

What you're thinking about is the way continuity is handled within a single version of a universe. For instance, when I write fiction set in the Prime Star Trek universe, then naturally my versions of the characters have to be consistent with its, because the stories purport to be within that same reality. But if you're doing a new version of a premise that's in a separate continuity, then of course you're free to reinvent it however you wish, to use elements of the old continuity merely as raw material and mix and match them in new ways. Because that's the advantage of doing a new version of a story in a new continuity. You can reinvent its ideas however you want. There is no "requirement" to conform to the exact details of the old version, because you're creating a different version that stands on its own.

You don't see that as a legit criticism?

It is legitimate to argue that, in this specific instance, they divorced the character too far from his roots. It is absolutely NOT legitimate to argue that no creator should ever be allowed to change any character even slightly. That is just completely disconnected from reality.

 

[Photoman15]

Maybe the Danvers' have money. Mrs. Danvers could be rich herself and be helping Kara out. Parents do that when they can.

She (Supergirl) works for the DEO. While probably not taking a salary, they may pay for her living expenses. Alex definitely is salaried, not volunteered.

 

[Christopher]

Okay... I just rewatched "Into the Speed Force," and Cisco says that Savitar's armor spike being drawn back to him is "just like The Iron Giant." But The Iron Giant is a movie in which Superman is referenced as a fictional character. But Superman really exists on Earth-38. And when Barry first met Supergirl, he didn't recognize her costume or logo. So is Earth-1's version of The Iron Giant different? Is there some other character that inspires the Giant to heroism? And would it work nearly as well as a tearjerker moment?

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Okay... I just rewatched "Into the Speed Force," and Cisco says that Savitar's armor spike being drawn back to him is "just like The Iron Giant." But The Iron Giant is a movie in which Superman is referenced as a fictional character. But Superman really exists on Earth-38. And when Barry first met Supergirl, he didn't recognize her costume or logo. So is Earth-1's version of The Iron Giant different? Is there some other character that inspires the Giant to heroism? And would it work nearly as well as a tearjerker moment?

Didn't Cisco wear a Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock shirt recently?
That means The Big Bang Theory is a thing on Earth 1.
Wrap your head around that.

 

[Christopher]

Didn't Cisco wear a Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock shirt recently?
That means The Big Bang Theory is a thing on Earth 1.
Wrap your head around that.

Never watched that show, but yeah, I am aware that it references a lot of DC characters (since it's from Warner Bros).

Well, back in 1966, we had characters on Batman watching The Green Hornet on TV and characters on The Green Hornet watching Batman on TV.

 

[Gaith]

Although I read that the Supergirl producers actually worked out a backstory for how Kara could afford her loft on an assistant's salary -- basically she works off the lease by doing maintenance and repairs around the building.

Well, that makes much more sense than simply giving her a large family trust fund.

(No, it doesn't.)

I'd give the musical episode a A for ambition and a borderline D for execution.

I didn't think it was worth the wait either, unfortunately. Even the vaunted friendship song was badly marred by the weird shade thrown at Clark. Is Kara really still pissy about his relative popularity? If so, lame. And Barry saying he doesn't find him impressive, even being tongue-in-cheek? Seemed out of character. The Iris and Mon-El dream characters (and Mon-El isn't a Kryptonian? Huh?) had zero development, and the number with the dads was pointless because we don't care about any of them, none of whom are real.

Meanwhile, Barry and Kara look like total Trumps for thinking there wouldn't be a gang war. Has Barry even seen that West Side Story musical he referenced? Of course rival gangs are going to have a fight! Instead of telling a half-assed and pointless story, the whole experience should have been contained to the theater, and should have resolved with a song, not some random shootout in which the stupid lovers don't even appear. Meanwhile, the Earth-1 hero battle was the most interesting thing to happen after the big nightclub number by far, which was rather unfortunate.

But, perhaps worst of all: the Music Meister said Barry and Kara had to finish the musical to escape, but if that's true, what happened to the lovers? That's not an ending! This is shit writing, folks, and we deserve better.

It just sounded like standard music-studio polish to me. The way singing in film and TV is almost always done is that the songs are recorded ahead of time in the studio to get the best sound quality, then lip-synched to by the performers on stage.

The trouble with the Earth-1 Barry solo at the end - apart from the song itself being hot, stinking garbage - is that the singing was badly mismatched with Gustin's blocking. (For instance: as his voice soars, Barry looks downwards, thereby constricting his windpipe.) The cumulative effect is jarring, amateurish, and lame.

Oh, and Barry/Iris still sucks.

 

[Christopher]

Well, that makes much more sense than simply giving her a large family trust fund.

(No, it doesn't.)

Makes sense to me. A little judicious use of x-ray vision, superstrength, superspeed, etc. would've made Kara seem like a prodigy at home repair and maintenance. (A Super-Intendent, if you will.) Hers is probably the best-maintained apartment building in National City. And before she became Supergirl, she would've been hungry to find ways she could help people, even on a small scale.

I didn't think it was worth the wait either, unfortunately. Even the vaunted friendship song was badly marred by the weird shade thrown at Clark. Is Kara really still pissy about his relative popularity? If so, lame.

It was a joke. The one thing I found incongruous about it was that it presumed a greater familiarity with Superman on Barry's part than he really should've had, unless he's been on visits to Earth-38 that we haven't seen.

The Iris and Mon-El dream characters (and Mon-El isn't a Kryptonian? Huh?) had zero development

First off, Mon-El has never been a Kryptonian; he's a Daxamite. Second, they were all "playing" human characters in the musical. Kara and Barry didn't have their powers either.

, and the number with the dads was pointless because we don't care about any of them, none of whom are real.

The point was to let the cast members sing. Otherwise, yes, they were unreal, but they were merely catalysts for Barry and Kara's arcs as they came to terms with their own relationship issues.

Granted, I agree with a comment I read that the Guys and Dolls song was pitched out of Victor Garber's optimal range; his singing didn't impress me all that much in this number. Also, while the "Put a Little Love in Your Heart" number was fun, what bugged me about it was that all the singers (Jordan, Valdez, Barrowman, Criss) were similar-sounding tenors and didn't really stand out from each other. Might've been nice to have more contrast of voices there.

But, perhaps worst of all: the Music Meister said Barry and Kara had to finish the musical to escape, but if that's true, what happened to the lovers? That's not an ending!

It's not like MM was really being honest about things. He pretended to be a villain when he actually wasn't. His goal was to lead the various protagonists to the point where they would figure things out for themselves, so he wasn't going to tell them the whole truth right up front. So the whole "follow the script" thing was something of a misdirect, so they wouldn't know what was coming.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The was 10 issues of the Superboy comic in 2002ish... Superboy the Superintendent.

Awful pun that really doesn't work.

 

[Caretaker]

Oh yeah.
A duet between Cat and Joe would have been something (special guest song writer: Vonda Shepard? )

I never watched more than a clip or two from Ally McBeal. I never realized Jesse L. Martin was on that series.