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Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

This was a pretty good finale overall.
The action scenes for the big showdown with the Flag Smashers were great, it was especially cool getting to see Sam use the shield and the wings.
Love his Cap suit.
I was not expecting that kind of redemption for Walker. It'll be interesting to see what they do with him as USAgent.
Loved Sam going back to see Isaiah again and taking him to see his exhibit at the museum.
It was nice to see Bucky finally tell Yuri the truth, although it was sad to see him lose one of the few friends he had. But it was nice to see him hanging out with Sam and his family, so at least he's made some new friends. Loved him calling Sam Cap.
The one thing I didn't like was Sharon being the Power Broker, not just because I like the character, but mainly because it was so damn obvious the entire time. I was really hoping they were going to give us a real surprise there, and not go the direction everyone has been predicting since she showed up.
 
Probably not, I have a feeling the only reason they did it with Bucky was because of his history as The Winter Soldier.
 
I will never be ok with what they've done to Sharon, but I think I've accepted it at this point. The more I consider it, the more I see what I think they were going for.

She's the anti-Sam. Confronted with a world where she has to fight, every day, not just to be recognized or appreciated but just to feel safe and have the same opportunities that so many (you can read that "so many" as so many straight, white dudes, but it goes beyond that) take for granted. But unlike Sam, who looks to the fight and sees all the people that have been trampled and crushed beneath it and is therefore driven to carry on that fight not just for himself but in their honor, Sharon is broken by that world. She gives up. What does she owe the world? It's a broken, screwed up place that would eat her alive, spit her out, and bury her. Why fight to make that better? Why make that effort, face that struggle, risk that failure? It's far easier to just embrace the shitstorm and climb to the top of the steaming pile. And you crush or bury anyone who stands in your way, because they'd do it to you if they could.

Sharon is the one the struggle broke. The one who has chosen to leave the world behind, as she believes it has abandoned her. And in fairness, her belief is not irrational or unfounded.

Karli is an idealist who loses her way, and loses her soul in the process. But at heart she honestly meant well, and it's hard to argue that her underlying motivations aren't just even if her actions cross all the lines of propriety and leave her irredeemable in the end. She saw the struggle to make the world better, and she was more than willing to fight it. Too willing, as it turns out. She didn't have the patience to accept small victories, or gradual change. Only grand gestures and all or nothing, earthshaking transformation were good enough for her. She didn't want to progress the struggle, she wanted to win it forever. And that led her down a path that consumed her.

John was, and remains, entitled. Devoted to service, to doing all the ugly things that other people asked him to do in the name of keeping the world upright in the face of chaos. But he never had to face the struggle. Not really. And when he got a look at what that world looked like, when he ran into a world that wouldn't bend to him just because of the color of his skin, or the cut of his uniform, or the sheer weight of the government he represented he stumbled, he fell. He cheated, took the shortcut instead of doing the real work. Instead of earning the right to be Captain America, instead of confronting the challenges head on, he tried to take it by literal force of arms. To use physical strength to replace the moral fortitude and sheer, stubborn courage it takes to just stand up to the world every day, let alone try and change it. But he learns from his stumbles, gets back up, and goes back out there to try and do better. He may fail, he certainly isn't perfect. He already shows signs of backsliding, of forgetting the lessons he's learned, in his final scene debuting his new look. For John the struggle to make the world better is never going to be easy because he'll have to be reminded that it even exists, that he has advantages others don't. But still he carries on.

Even Zemo believes in helping the world change for the better. His view of better is arguably twisted, and his method unquestionably homicidal, but in spite of everything he has lost and everything he has suffered through, including both losing his family and spending nearly a decade in prison, he still wants to try and make the world a better place. We might not agree with his ideals, or his methods, but his convictions we can respect (and fear).

But Sharon has abandoned her convictions entirely. Her courage broken, her spirit crushed. She's become part of the wheel, grinding others down into the mud. She has given up any pretense of making the world a better place, of keeping it safe for others. She has become the kind of utterly selfish and faithless person she sees the rest of the world as being. All that's left is to get hers, by any means necessary.

Looked at in that light, she makes an interesting foil for Sam. Someone who he might try to save, once he realizes how far she is gone. But whom more likely needs to be stopped.
 
The goggles are to protect his eyes from flys when flying. Secret identities isn’t really a thing in the MCU. Everyone knows who every hero is. Even Spidey now.
Yep! Probably the only MCU hero with a bona fide secret identity is Daredevil, and I'm not even sure about him.

Even in the comics superhero with a secret identity are the minority. Even Superman reveled his own. I believe the only "big names" with one are Spider-Man and Batman.
 
I wonder if the new Captain America suit has a failsafe put in by the Wakanda people like Bucky's robot arm.


I'm surprised there's no Wakandan touch/flair to the gear. When Bucky reattached his arm there was even a bit of purple that's synonymous with Wakanda gear


dXodT44.jpg
 
Excellent! Pure fun all around, and I got to say I was impressed with Sam's debate with the Senator, particularly how they addressed some heady issues, many of which have some obvious real world parallels but managed to make the point without seeming preachy about it. Not an easy thing to pull off, but damn, they did just that. The episode had all sorts of kick ass action and emotional moments with genuine heart and it offered commentary to the world we live in and even managed to set up some interesting directions for the MCU to take off in from there.

I also want to call out special attention to the scene where Walker and Karli first start their showdown. Karli apologizes for Lemar's death saying she didn't mean for people who "don't matter" to die. Walker then gets outraged and says "are you saying Lemar's life didn't matter?" Maybe I'm reading too much into the scene, but I thought that was a clever way to insert Black Lives Matter into the show all the same.

And once again, Disney+ knocks it out of the park with their second MCU TV series. They've raised the bar pretty high for Loki to meet, but something tells me that's not going to be a problem.
 
Maybe Sharon Carter is in charge of Hydra now. They see the blip as a golden opportunity to take advantage of the situation and infiltrate governments again only on a bigger scale than last when they controlled SHIELD.
 
Great finale to a great, but short, series. I was more surprised at WandaVision being as good as it was, but I think this was even better.

Can't wait for Loki.
 
Yep! Probably the only MCU hero with a bona fide secret identity is Daredevil, and I'm not even sure about him.

Even in the comics superhero with a secret identity are the minority. Even Superman reveled his own. I believe the only "big names" with one are Spider-Man and Batman.

Secret Identities are an outdated idea anyways.
 

That needs to happen. Whether or not that means there will not be a second season to this show is anyone's guess. I would gladly take both.

Yay
  • Zemo sheming from behind bars

Yes, the Zemo part was pitch perfect for the character. He said he was no longer trying to kill Bucky...but that had nothing to do with the Flag Smashers.

Nay
  • Sharon being the Power Broker aft all. Way to ruin the Carter name!

Everyone does not live up to the reputation of a predecessor. She is her own person, not just Peggy's relative.

  • Karli's flagsmasher allies not speaking up, despite being uncomfortable with her decisions.

If you're referring to her scene where she chooses to kill the hostages, then the scene was illustrating what has happened in real world terror groups and cults, where being uncomfortable does not mean they have the will / spine to step up and stop what is happening, or separate themselves from the situation. Ultimately, they were willing to support her worldview and continue their mission--including trying to kill the hostages.

I will never be ok with what they've done to Sharon, but I think I've accepted it at this point. The more I consider it, the more I see what I think they were going for.

She's the anti-Sam. Confronted with a world where she has to fight, every day, not just to be recognized or appreciated but just to feel safe and have the same opportunities that so many (you can read that "so many" as so many straight, white dudes, but it goes beyond that) take for granted. But unlike Sam, who looks to the fight and sees all the people that have been trampled and crushed beneath it and is therefore driven to carry on that fight not just for himself but in their honor, Sharon is broken by that world. She gives up. What does she owe the world? It's a broken, screwed up place that would eat her alive, spit her out, and bury her. Why fight to make that better? Why make that effort, face that struggle, risk that failure? It's far easier to just embrace the shitstorm and climb to the top of the steaming pile. And you crush or bury anyone who stands in your way, because they'd do it to you if they could.

Interesting analysis, but one must also consider that she--unlike Sam and Steve--had to be more of a morally gray character from the start, since she worked for SHIELD. The very nature of that organization means its members are involved with acts the average person might find unethical at the least, deplorable at its worst. That was one of the reasons Steve had ethical issues with Fury for a number of reasons. Sharon essentially saying "fuck it all--I'm using my skills to build my life elsewhere" is not so wild a choice for her, if one uses her professional life as a character foundation.

She didn't have the patience to accept small victories, or gradual change. Only grand gestures and all or nothing, earthshaking transformation were good enough for her. She didn't want to progress the struggle, she wanted to win it forever. And that led her down a path that consumed her.

...and her hardcore beliefs was the reason why at two points in this series--the bombing and in E6, attempting to kill the hostages--she was either questioned or received pushback (though weak in the end) from her companions. The extremes of political ideology rarely if ever leave room to explore options that do not feed into their own, ironically "one world" mentality, which is why Sam--despite repeated attempts to reason with her--was never going to break through. Her final act was to ignore then attempt to murder him. As it turns out, Zemo--of all people--was right about her all along.

John was, and remains, entitled.

Yes x1000.

Devoted to service, to doing all the ugly things that other people asked him to do in the name of keeping the world upright in the face of chaos. But he never had to face the struggle. Not really. And when he got a look at what that world looked like, when he ran into a world that wouldn't bend to him just because of the color of his skin, or the cut of his uniform, or the sheer weight of the government he represented he stumbled, he fell.

I referred to him as entitled early on, and yes, despite being married to black woman & having a black best friend, his behavior about what his job and position was seemed to be born of the very kind of "I'm white and I say so" culture that people like have had to deal with time after time in both professional and private situations. Walker just assumed he held a "natural" authoritarian position, which would allow him to slip into a role (Captain America) he never understood, because being Cap was--for Steve and now Sam--as much about who you are (naturally) in your soul and the character it shapes in correcting the ills of the world as it was just serving. Only Walker believed service was being a fist who cannot be denied...an image that sought rewards that only an entitled man expects.

.
But he learns from his stumbles, gets back up, and goes back out there to try and do better. He may fail, he certainly isn't perfect. He already shows signs of backsliding, of forgetting the lessons he's learned, in his final scene debuting his new look. For John the struggle to make the world better is never going to be easy because he'll have to be reminded that it even exists, that he has advantages others don't. But still he carries on.

I think the backsliding you refer to will never be controlled or disciplined as it should be by his new employer. She seems like the type who will encourage his behavior, hence the reason she approached him in the first place.


Looked at in that light, she makes an interesting foil for Sam. Someone who he might try to save, once he realizes how far she is gone. But whom more likely needs to be stopped.

Interesting that you put it that way, as it was Sam (in Captain America: The Winter Soldier) who once told Steve that Bucky was the kind of man you have to stop. Steve disagreed, and ultimately, that did turn out for the better for all parties involved. It remains to be seen if he takes the Steve route once he learns he's been betrayed by Sharon.
 
Secret Identities are an outdated idea anyways.
Yep. Perhaps a "soft" secret identity à-la Tv Flash can be still acceptable, but nothing in the same vein of the Silver-Age Superman, when he enjoyed gaslighting Lois Lane and making her doubt about her mental sanity while she was right all along. "Truth, Justice And The American Way, except all the time when I lie to the people who believe I'm their friend and to the woman I love".
 
That was a big let down to me.

The action sequences were badly edited, poorly put together and hard to follow, the script was less than great (and written by a five year old in places "Then the army came and arrested the naughty people"), the Sharon thing was telegraphed, obvious and ruined the character and...Walker's all forgiven now ?

It had been a pretty good show until this week.

P.S. What's the fascination with Zemo ? A so-so character and Brühl ? Not a fan.
 
Wow, I have to say I didn't expect that development for two main reasons:

1) There are already a ton of films in the upcoming docket to cover several years.

2) The type of storytelling that best suits Sam and Bucky is television so I'm not sure would quite work as a feature film now. As pointed out by others for the last couple of weeks, the show could've been better of with a couple of more episodes. Certainly not truncated into a feature film.

So with that in mind, I'm very curious to see what kind of story Feige and company think warrants a feature film.

An interesting possibility was brought up elsewhere. What if Sharon is...

...a Skrull?
I saw that idea elsewhere (I think the comments at io9 or A.V. Club). It's an interesting idea for certain especially since...

BTW. In terms of the that possibility and the snap

Wouldn't that have been a very good opportunity for the Skrulls to infiltrate? So much confusion and you had missing people. Surprised when the snap was un-done you didn't suddenly have the 'real' person appear. Could have been a really good way to lead into discovering the Skrull infilitration.
Exactly all of that. I wonder if that's the thinking behind the upcoming show.

It's "White Wolf" now, Bucky and Sam had that conversation, I think it was last episode? Started with Sam saying "So are you the White Panther now?"
Yeah, I blanked on that moment (which originated, of course, in Black Panther) when I made that post this morning.

I think this season was about Sam's journey. We had glimpses of Bucky's journey but the world didn't. There is no "White Wolf" yet because Bucky is still deep under cover for the most part. Maybe season two will get him out of his shell and the world will know him as the hero he's become.
Not completely deep under cover considering he had ease of access to whatever Air Force base Sam was operating from (Bucky arrived without an escort so clearly he has some veteran benefits to a degree) and he was given access by the NYPD force that was at the GRC headquarters. But I agree that public perception of him is still murky to some degree, to the point that he's clearly not even publicly known as the Winter Soldier.

She's the anti-Sam. Confronted with a world where she has to fight, every day, not just to be recognized or appreciated but just to feel safe and have the same opportunities that so many (you can read that "so many" as so many straight, white dudes, but it goes beyond that) take for granted. But unlike Sam, who looks to the fight and sees all the people that have been trampled and crushed beneath it and is therefore driven to carry on that fight not just for himself but in their honor, Sharon is broken by that world. She gives up. What does she owe the world? It's a broken, screwed up place that would eat her alive, spit her out, and bury her. Why fight to make that better? Why make that effort, face that struggle, risk that failure? It's far easier to just embrace the shitstorm and climb to the top of the steaming pile. And you crush or bury anyone who stands in your way, because they'd do it to you if they could.

Sharon is the one the struggle broke. The one who has chosen to leave the world behind, as she believes it has abandoned her. And in fairness, her belief is not irrational or unfounded.
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But Sharon has abandoned her convictions entirely. Her courage broken, her spirit crushed. She's become part of the wheel, grinding others down into the mud. She has given up any pretense of making the world a better place, of keeping it safe for others. She has become the kind of utterly selfish and faithless person she sees the rest of the world as being. All that's left is to get hers, by any means necessary.
You're right on the mark, which is why I wish we had seen more direct development leading up to her becoming the Power Broker. That was sacrificed for the sake of the big reveal, even if it was heavily telegraphed. Like I said before, I hope season two gives us a full episode that explores how that happened because, how it stands now, it's a bad example of telling instead of showing.
 
If they can't do a full series about it, I wouldn't mind seeing a one-shot about Sharon becoming the Power Broker. But they might just be saving that for Cap 4.
 
I wonder if the new Captain America suit has a failsafe put in by the Wakanda people like Bucky's robot arm.
I think it's a safe bet that since the thing with Killmonger ALL Wakandan tech has some kind of hidden failsafe in case it gets out into the wild.
I'm surprised there's no Wakandan touch/flair to the gear. When Bucky reattached his arm there was even a bit of purple that's synonymous with Wakanda gear
Well then he would be Captain Wakanda; they already have one of those, and he goes in for claws, not wings.
Also, him being "Captain America" and not "Captain African America" is kinda the whole point here.
 
I think it's a safe bet that since the thing with Killmonger ALL Wakandan tech has some kind of hidden failsafe in case it gets out into the wild.

Well then he would be Captain Wakanda; they already have one of those, and he goes in for claws, not wings.
Also, him being "Captain America" and not "Captain African America" is kinda the whole point here.

Failing to resist urge to say that would totally be the headline from some news organizations.
 
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