Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Turtletrekker, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. Skipper

    Skipper Commodore Commodore

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    1) Hulk yes, you just wait for him to reverse to Banner.
    2) Vision in the 2%
    3) Thing idem
    4) Doom, he doesn't sleep in his armor
    5) Iron Man, idem.
    6) Magneto Use a ceramic bullet. Simple.
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Commodore Commodore

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    MCU Banner tried to shoot himself, but he turned into Hulk and spat it out
     
  4. Skipper

    Skipper Commodore Commodore

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    Here he isn't shooting himself. And for every Hulk there are one hundred Hawkeye.
     
  5. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Sure, but surely a bullet is a bullet.

    Any other examples of Hulk dying? I think there was one where he was trapped at the centre of a planet
     
  6. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Comics Hulk explicitly cannot ever permanently die (unless, maybe, someone successfully pulls off shenanigans with 'the green door' which cannot possibly be affected by a bullet). He 'dies', he wakes up again fairly soon after.

    MCU Hulk could still be backtracked away from that if the writers wanted, but 'the other guy spit it out' pretty clearly signals that the basic concept of MCU Hulk is also that he can't really die (or at least, not just from something killing Banner).

    Also, Dr. Doom probably does sleep in his armor a significant portion of the time... And he definitely sleeps in an imprenetrable fortress guarded by legions of soldiers, robots and arcane security systems.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  7. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, the mental stress of attempting suicide would likely elevate one's heart rate...
     
  8. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    But not before actually pulling the trigger
     
  9. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I can't say I've been in the situation or made the attempt myself, but I can easily imagine getting pretty nervous about it... :shrug:
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    That's not really what I was referring to? That's one possibility, but I don't think it's an inevitability.

    I suspect that the phenomenon that would be far more destabilizing to the social order would be the emergence of parallel power structures with the ability to physically overpower state power structures. That could encompass charismatic cults of personality led by superbeings as you suggest, but it could just as easily encompass, say, reactionary militias led by normal people with super-powered supporters, or it could encompass far-left direct democracy movements with a mix of regular and superpowered supporters and leaders both. It could also encompass standard criminal syndicates such as drug cartels or the Italian Mafia, but with superpowered enforcers introduced to the mix.

    It's not so much superpower-led cults that I'm talking about as all sorts of parallel power structures that could suddenly have the ability to overpower agents of the state to an extent that's never been possible in real life in the post-Industrial era.
     
  11. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I could see it continuing the be a part of the backstory, but I just doubt it will continue to get the kind of attention it got in WandaVision and this.
     
  12. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If having a "heroic moment" was the only reason for using such a catastrophic event as you suggest, then it was horribly misused, as an writer knows such an event instantly demanded follow ups in their connected universe of films and TV series.

    No, I expect franchise heads/showrunners to do more than throw spectacle and illogic in front of a camera and think that audiences are just going to swallow it all as the franchise moves forward from that "biggest ever"/"biggest disaster" event

    That's a poor excuse, and contradicts your earlier backpedal:

    Mindless action is all you're getting if this snap/blip was hard-sold as such a grave, dramatic event in the lives of everyone, yet only one series seriously used it as the central plot driver/focus, and its never addressed again, while an earlier production such as Far from Home barely addressed it at all, with everything looking/functioning as if all were right with the world. That's an astounding lack of franchise-runner and plotting consistency (and forethought about what needed to happen in all post-blip earth-based films for the near future) that a world in chaos, (en)forced migration, etc., on the level constantly stated in Captain America and the Winter Soldier is just paid lip service (if that) from this point forward.

    ^ Nothing like blanket statements to not make a point. That, and yours was a highly defensive, weak cop-out shifting blame to the viewer, rather than the productions. If you think its all the greatest stuff ever put on screen, that's fine for you, but this is far from the first time movie-goers have questioned the lack of consistency in the Marvel movies over the years, and now that they've added the idea of a post-blip world, viewers will naturally question how a film can go back to blast antics when we were just told innumerable parts of the earth's population are suffering.

    Audiences were not asleep and missed all of that.


    Probably. Someone mentioned Iron Man (doubting he could be killed that way), but in the real world, all manner of bullets are designed for different and very specific purposes. That being very, very true in reality, then, in the fantasy of comics, who couldn't develop a bullet that would rip through Iron Man's armor?
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Trouble is when you kill Banner, later that night you meet the Hulk.
     
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  14. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    That was me. I guess it depends on how magical his armor is going to be. If it's the nanotech of the last two Avenger films, I would say it's hard for most bullets...unless, I guess, nanobullets or some shit like that.
     
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  15. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And we've gotten that follow up in Far From Home, WandaVision, and now The Falcon & The Winter Solider.

    And they have done more than that, we've gotten 2 TV series and a movie that showed the aftermath and how it effected things. I doubt they'll forget about it, but I just can't see them focusing to much more time on it.
    No it does not even in the slightest, all I meant was that everything in these movies is going to have to relate to the superhero conflicts, and that they are not going spend a lot of their run times on things that don't direct relate to those superhero conflicts. They are not completely mindless, they do still give a fair amount of depth to their characters and stories, but in the end that stuff is still going to tie back into the superhero stuff.
    Just because they aren't dealing with the things you want them to deal with doesn't make them mindless.
    The franchise is not about the Snap/Blip, so I can't see them spending an excessive amount of time on it.
    But they're not just going back to blast antics, they have dealt with how the Snap & Blip effected things, but since that is not the focus of the franchise, I just can't see them spending much more time on it than they have.
    I could see it being mentioned as part of a movie or character's backstory, but I can't see the stuff we've got coming up focusing on it to much.
     
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  16. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I think the key thing to remember is that at the end of the day, Marvel's bread and butter is producing spectacle-driven middlebrow action movies for the 8-38 audience base. They're not interested in doing cinéma vérité. They're not going to make Rome, Open City or Bicycle Thieves or Come and See or About Elly or Amour. There's a limit to how deeply an MCU movie can reasonably be expected to explore what would in reality be the most horrific and traumatic event in human history.
     
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  17. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Only one of those productions used it as the central driver of the story, as it should be with many post-blip productions to come, but that is not going to happen.

    It was you who posted:

    ...only for you to return to the "its all about superhero fights," arguing against any future plots focusing on the post-blip consequences--conflicting positions.

    You are of the opinion that living up to addressing the massive consequences of an "all changing" event like the blip is somehow moving away from superhero business. One, superhero business comes in many forms--including having it (from time to time) play a supportive (instead of a dominant, plot-driving) role in stories. Two, arguably the greatest MCU film--Captain America: The Winter Soldier--was a great example of superheroic action there to support a larger, more serious, plot & character-driven film, so I find arguments against that kind of superhero film fallacious at best.

    We will see.

    Which will seem rather odd when earth-bound characters in films that take place either at the same time or not too far ahead of Captain America and the Winter Soldier's timeline are "superhero-ing" it up while audiences know the post-blip chaos is still going on in that world, and no one else ever addresses it in any meaningful way.
     
  18. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is perfectly fine, they pretty much covered all of the important stuff in Far From Home, WandaVision, and The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.


    And that is not a contradiction, the movies can still give us deeper characters and stories, without losing their focus on the superhero action.


    I can't really see any of the superheroes getting involved in anything that goes deeper into the post-blip world than what The Falcon & The Winter Soldier already did.

    Everything we got in The Winter Solider still tied back into the superhero story of Hydra and Project Insight.

    Not at all, there's already going to be plenty of other stuff going on without having to waste time on some in depth examination of the effects of the Snap/Blip.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  19. YLu

    YLu Commander Red Shirt

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    The Blip not having any major consequences to civilization is just being extremely faithful to the spirit of the comics, where the continued presence of magic, superpeople, miracle tech, etc. since at least the 1940s has somehow not significantly altered society.

    Stan Lee liked to talk about how the appeal of Marvel is that it's "the world outside your window." You can have that or you can play alternate-history worldbuilding, but you can't have both.
     
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  20. Jedi_Master

    Jedi_Master Admiral Admiral

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    As it should be. Escapist fiction should be escapist.
     
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