Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Turtletrekker, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. Thestral

    Thestral Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's fine but then you can't say that Karli was right because millions of people could die if the GRC plan went through. Because obviously the counterpoint is the millions of other people.
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Millions might die, but millions will get jobs.

    Moving all those people forcibly like cattle, even humanely, would be a boom to the economies of dozens of countries who get to build new concentration camps and lay new train tracks.
     
  3. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    This makes no sense. There is no evidence in the series and no precedent in real life for the idea that millions of people would somehow be in danger if people who legally emigrated to developed nations to fill economic niches are allowed to stay. Having immigrants in real life does not endanger anyone, and having Blip immigrants doesn't endanger anyone in the MCU.
     
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  4. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    Is there a historical precedent for a population doubling (well, less than doubling, because of all the new immigrants) overnight? The closest thing I've heard discussed as a real-world analogy for the post-Blip situation is the reunification of Germany, where the new government decided property rights should revert to the owners prior to the rise of the Nazi regime, war, and subsequent partition of the country, but even then, those people had been living somewhere else for the prior five decades, and didn't just blink into existence in their old homes and businesses and tell the people who were there now to hit the bricks (or were alternatively told by them to get out and find a new home/job, the one they had is now occupied, thank you very much).

    It's not even the premise of the show, it's more fundamental than that. It's axiomatic that plenty of people ended up in the situation where there were instantly, say, two four-person families living in one three-room home, and they had a problem with that. You seem to be the only person here who thinks "finding a bunch of strangers in your home screaming at you that it's their home, get the hell out or they're calling the cops" is a reasonable status quo that would happily continue indefinitely if not for nationalist racism.
     
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  5. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    The internationally displaced people who legally emigrated to developed countries to fill an economic niche during the 5 year absence are not in those homes anymore. According to Falcon, they're already all living in refugee camps.

    No one is arguing letting them take the property of Thanos's victims. I'm arguing that they should not be forcibly relocated. Refraining from forcibly deporting these immigrants does not threaten anyone else's lives or property.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This is just logic, if there's a quote that proves this wrong, that's cool too.

    1. Snap.
    2. 20 million refugees from fallen down countries go to refugee camps.
    3. The refugees are sent places, provided jobs and housing.
    4. 5 years pass. Every one has a job and a home, the weeks in camps are forgotten about.
    5. The Blip.
    6. 4 billion people appear, and are put in refugee camps, because there's no where to put them, even if they are educated, skilled or "rich".
    7. The snap refugees are taken from their houses and sent back to refugee camps. Even so, there's still going to be 1000 times as many blip refugees than snap refugees.
     
  7. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    What? You're saying you're fine with intranational displacement forcing people into under-provisioned slums that were left fallow for (at least) five years in the hopes they'll die off or otherwise stop taking up space, but once you move people across a border, then it becomes immoral? That's what you took from "[the Flag-Smashers] think that the world was better during The Blip," and "We can’t let these assholes who were put back in power after The Blip win. The GRC care more about the people who came back than the ones who never left. We got a glimpse of how things could be."?

    The Flag-Smashers are overtly agitating to keep (or, now, to have returned to them) the property of Thanos's victims that they assumed or earned during the Blip. It's in their mission statement. Nothing else makes sense. Nobody is going to start an international larceny and terrorism organization because they'd rather die of TB in a ghetto in Riga than a slum in Madripoor, they'd do it because they want to get (or keep) their shot at the brass ring.
     
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  8. Thestral

    Thestral Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They were already forcibly relocated. I mean, I suppose it's theoretically possible that every single person who took/acquired the homes/property of Snap victims willingly returned them but... that seems unlikely. So at least some of them have already been compelled to leave and forcefully relocated.

    So they're living in refugee camps.... and then what?
     
  9. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The problem is, that no matter what, one group is going to end up being kicked out of the homes and forcibly relocated. You can't exactly expect strangers to share a house/apartment that was for intended half the number of people that are there now. Somebody is going to have to give the place up and go somewhere else, whether they want to or not.
     
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  10. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC, MCU timeline-wise, two months later we see May Parker working with an organization that was sheltering and helping find homes for homeless people. May herself had re-materialized in her old apartment which had been re-occupied. Perhaps the need for such an organization was realized by the Flag Smasher incident. If I were a tie-in writer, that's how I would connect it.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Just reverting all the property back to its original owner clearly isn't the right answer. Creating a process to make everyone whole in an orderly manner without tearing down others would be optimal.

    Think about what happens if a person is thought to die in a plane crash and then is rescued five years later. Do you immediately evict the current occupants of their house?

    Maybe create a program to refurbish all the abandoned real estate around. Create jobs and end up with enough homes for displaced people to move into.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  12. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    The property presumably wasn't just given to others, it was given to the surviving next of kin, who then either kept it empty (as we saw in abandoned boats and property in Endgame - Cassie didn't bother collecting Scott's stuff), or sold it (perhaps at a massively cheap price because of the sudden drop in demand of housing), but then if it was sold there would likely be an empty house elsewhere unless housing was really depressed.

    The large influx into some wealthy countries that apparently came (borders changing/vanishing/etc) to some countries will have caused issues though. If you had 1m in a given city, and it's a little overcrowded.

    Then half the population vanishes. That's 500k people left.

    Borders come down, people migrate from countries with less opportunity and perhaps even more unstable situation (drug wars in central america, Syrian refugee camps in Turkey), population returns to say 900k.

    Then 500k people come back, population is now 1.4 million in the city that was full+bursting at 1 million, that's going to cause problems.
     
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  13. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Commodore Premium Member

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    Which means you employ the policy that JirinPanthos descibed above. Such a policy does not solve everything, but it greatly mitigates the problems and suffering.
     
  14. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Problem is that JirinPanthos assumes abandoned real estate. We saw some evidence of this in American cities, but not in places like Europe. Sure there'll be abandoned refugee camps

    If you had 4 million people in Turkey in a refugee camp, and 30 million living in normal housing

    Then the snap happens, and you have 2 million in camps and 15 million in normal housing

    Plenty of room and resources for those in the camps, and they can start to build a new life. Great.

    17 million in normal housing.

    Turkey does well economically and attracts even more immigration from Syria, Iraq, Iran etc, so you're upto 25 million in normal housing.

    Then you unblip. You've now got 2 million in camps, 40 million in normal housing, 5 million of which need refurbishing. You're already short by 10 million even with instant refurbishment. Who do you throw into the refugee camps?

    The correct solution would be massive high speed house building, but we could do that now to solve housing problems throughout the world. We don't, so why would be after a blip?
     
  15. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    The other issue is that no matter how fast you build, it can't be instantaneous (and it certainly won't be in practice). Then there's the question of what to build, where, and how. New high-density housing doesn't solve the immediate problem, and if it's being put in central areas where there are already buildings, it displaces even more people while its being constructed. There area only so many trained construction workers, plumbers, electricians, architects, and only so much equipment and material available to use, so that could introduce further delays.

    The sheer scale of the challenge while people are in trouble right now definitely makes lazy, harmful, quick-fix solutions like "reset everyone's living situation to what it was before the Blip" very attractive, and the callousness of that makes a political movement consisting of "Do something else, I don't care what you do or who you hurt that isn't me, but I'm not leaving" likewise very attractive. In the real world, there'd likely be a nonviolent, political counterpart to the Flag Smashers advocating within the system for the rights of the Unblipped to not have their property repatriated and their residency revoked, who would be the ones to negotiate within the law for more equitable resolutions to the crisis rather than band-aid solutions like stealing other people's relief supplies and flashy demonstrations and bombings. Though there always going to be people who think being loud is always the same as making a difference.
     
  16. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Why wouldn’t there be abandoned real estate? You think there was a demolition push over five years?

    The buildings that housed people before are still there.

    Also, if the snap destroyed half of all living things wouldn’t all the lost crops magically reappear?

    Or more humorously, cockroaches in buildings that were fumigated in the interim.
     
  17. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    I wouldn't want to live in a building that had been abandoned for five years. Plus, there's still the issue of greater population density in some cities than they had pre-Blip. The whole thing we're trying to avoid is moving people around without their consent, so it stands to reason the majority of the abandoned dwellings are in places that didn't have a Blip-Boom and were left behind when the remaining half of the population started consolidating.

    Creatures, not living things, so the crops were unaffected (well, some amount probably died because of the reduction in pollinators like bees, but that would've probably rebounded in the interim). Livestock and wild animals would've come back, though, and pests.
     
  18. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This post-Blip discussion only hammers home the reason why a crisis of that magnitude cannot be glossed over in future MCU productions without the same effect of having part of the screen burned away and the producers hoping you do not notice it.
     
  19. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    All it shows is some fans prefer to try and make everything in a comic book "real" in some sense, when it should just be treated as a element of the backstory because to be honest - If something like this really did occur, our world will be royally fucked for a century - and there's no way our society would remain anywhere close to what it is currently.
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I have no idea how you go from one ridiculous binary to another, but not. I am not fine with intranational displacement, either. What I am saying, however, is that forced relocation across international borders inevitably leads to mass death on a scale that forced relocation over short distances and/or within national borders rarely leads to. I am further saying that the Flag Smashers are reacting to a political situation that already exists in which people who emigrated during the Blip have already been relocated out of the properties of Thanos's victims and are already living out of refugee camps. It is not that the Flag Smashers want the camps, it is that they do not want internationally displaced persons to be deported through no fault of their own, and they want those international displaced persons to be allowed to stay and integrate into the societies to which they legally emigrated.

    Perhaps I am incorrect, but I honestly do not recall any such sequence or line of dialogue establishing this. Could you quote it, and tell me which episode it was from?

    No, but people have and will continue to form resistance organizations willing to use force to prevent millions of people from being forcibly relocated (with all the attendant mass death that follows).

    You really gonna play semantics games equating a (hopefully temporary) relocation across a short distance to a local refugee camp while the housing situation gets sorted out, to forcing millions of people to be uprooted and deported hundreds if not thousands of miles away back to a country they do not want to live in?

    C'mon, there's an obvious difference between the two.

    Build more housing and provide humanitarian and jobs assistance to the people displaced as a result of the Return-Blip. Allow the immigrants to stay and help integrate them into your society.

    On the other hand, a large percentage of people who emigrated as a result of the Snap are themselves probably construction workers and other hard laborers. There's a huge workforce right there, eager to work.

    In the real world, nonviolent resistance movements only work if there's a large population of third parties willing to put political pressure on the state to help the nonviolent resisters. That was how Dr. King's strategy worked: He and his people who come into a town, work with local resistance leaders to use nonviolence to provoke a violent retaliation from local authorities, and they would make sure that violent reaction was caught on camera and broadcast to the larger public. At that point, the goal was to evoke the sympathy of the larger public so that the public would pressure the federal government to rein in the local authorities.

    I'm not entirely sure that that strategy would work for the Blip Refugees. Are they more like blacks in apartheid America, or are they more like blacks in apartheid South Africa? Nelson Mandel and the ANC used violent resistance against the brutality of the South African apartheid government, and they were completely justified in doing so and their tactics were effective; South Africa became a genuine democracy after it became clear they could not defeat the ANC.

    So the question becomes, should the Blip Refugees imitate Dr. King or President Mandela? And if the lives of millions of Blip Refugees who were already no threat to anyone were in danger, is the Nelson Mandela approach genuinely wrong?
     
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