The Excelsior - uncovering the design

[yotsuya]

Well, as long as you don't consider it to be so... Some interpretations of the Constitution refit show the antimatter storage pods to be attached directly to the reaction chamber:

It is not unreasonable to believe that this might be an evolution of what we see in TOS: "That Which Survives", which certainly seems to be at odds with what we know of 24th century warp drives which have the antimatter storage far away from the reaction chamber.

This main power configuration is totally different than the TOS configuration. I do take Kimble's drawings as accurate, but I do not take that to have any connection to TOS. However, if you look closely, these feature a central piece with containers attached. If Scotty were to perform the same act as in TWS, it would be in that central location where the antimatter is fed into the reaction chamber. I see the TOS setup as more like the TNG setup, were there is a feed line going from anti-matter storage to the intermix chamber. I think we can all picture Scotty remember TWS and that damage and imagine that this was one way he thought of to counter that happening again. But the rest of Starfleet went back to the more normal method for other ship designs, like Excelsior. I'm giving Excelsior a mix of the two, with an intermix chamber like Kimble pictures, but the anti-matter is separate with a feed like in TWS.

 

[Vale]

This main power configuration is totally different than the TOS configuration. I do take Kimble's drawings as accurate, but I do not take that to have any connection to TOS. However, if you look closely, these feature a central piece with containers attached.

"If you look closely"... dude, it's right there. Stop being a patronising ass.

If Scotty were to perform the same act as in TWS, it would be in that central location where the antimatter is fed into the reaction chamber.

Or alongside/between the pods at the point they attach to the central structure.

I see the TOS setup as more like the TNG setup, were there is a feed line going from anti-matter storage to the intermix chamber.

Based on...?

I think we can all picture Scotty remember TWS and that damage and imagine that this was one way he thought of to counter that happening again. But the rest of Starfleet went back to the more normal method for other ship designs, like Excelsior.

So the ADSB looked at Scotty's design work and said "nah, we're good, even though you've clearly thought about circumventing a situation that almost destroyed one of our ships; but you can have a whole class to mess around with and tear apart/put back together"? Really? For the lolz?

I'm giving Excelsior a mix of the two, with an intermix chamber like Kimble pictures, but the anti-matter is separate with a feed like in TWS.

<sigh> OK cool whatevs

 

[Unicron]

Perhaps it would be best if the thread cools down a bit. I'd prefer not to give out any warnings.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Scotty specifically refer to "magnetic bottles" and "the magnetic field that bottles up the antimatter". Scotty enters what is variously referred to as an access tube or a service crawlway leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber. There are other engineering staff just outside the crawlway and Scotty refers to "explosive separator charges to blast me clear of the ship", rather than "us", so it's unlikely to be the entire secondary hull with other people just hanging around the corridors waiting to see if they'll die or not.

My assumption is that this was based on the Jeffries-era "nacelles are completely integrated engine units with their own matter, antimatter, and reactors" paradigm of how warp drive worked, and that Scotty was indeed inside one of the warp nacelles at this point. However, ejecting an entire warp nacelle when you're travelling way above your maximum rated speed and the ship's already in danger of structural collapse is probably not a great idea; it being a single antimatter storage pod being ejected makes more sense, and is more likely to leave the rest of the ship intact.

In my way of viewing it, the secondary hull in TOS is mostly taken up with similar components to a nacelle, but its has other features as well. The secondary hull could have a "reactor" in it, just as the nacelles do. The issue with this, though, as I have mentioned before, is that if that is so there could be an engine room like the set we see in the saucer by the impulse engines, in the secondary hull like we would expect in TNG, and in each nacelle.

If the orange pipe structure is the actual "energizer" "intermix shaft" or "warp core," whatever you want to call it, this service crawlway could be connected to it, and that is why Scotty would say that it was not meant to be entered while the system was in use.

I'm struggling to understand what use separating the saucer would be in this scenario.

I think the point was that the separating the ship WOULDN'T work. I thought I understood it was brought up as an example of something that clearly would not be a choice, forcing the outcome we see in the movie, not as a viable alternative. That would relate to the question of whether or not the Excelsior had impulse engines in its lower section.

It is not unreasonable to believe that this might be an evolution of what we see in TOS: "That Which Survives"

For what it's worth, the nacelle control room in TNG looks like it could match up with the TOS engine room. It has two levels, a large window onto an orange tube, and even a raised machine on the floor of the lower level. I wish there was an interview somewhere that explained if this was intentional.

 

[blssdwlf]

In my way of viewing it, the secondary hull in TOS is mostly taken up with similar components to a nacelle, but its has other features as well. The secondary hull could have a "reactor" in it, just as the nacelles do. The issue with this, though, as I have mentioned before, is that if that is so there could be an engine room like the set we see in the saucer by the impulse engines, in the secondary hull like we would expect in TNG, and in each nacelle.

For what it's worth, the nacelle control room in TNG looks like it could match up with the TOS engine room. It has two levels, a large window onto an orange tube, and even a raised machine on the floor of the lower level. I wish there was an interview somewhere that explained if this was intentional.

You could put either S1 or S2 engine room in the TOS Enterprise's primary hull and also in the engineering hull and one in each nacelles. The rooms all fit. It's the hallways outside of them and/or the Emergency Monitor side rooms that would limit whether they could fit in the nacelles. Dialogue-wise, in "The Naked Time" there was a callout to all engine rooms (more than one.) And in "The Omega Glory" (IIRC) we see the empty starship have two nearly identical engine rooms.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

You could put either S1 or S2 engine room in the TOS Enterprise's primary hull and also in the engineering hull and one in each nacelles. The rooms all fit. It's the hallways outside of them and/or the Emergency Monitor side rooms that would limit whether they could fit in the nacelles. Dialogue-wise, in "The Naked Time" there was a callout to all engine rooms (more than one.) And in "The Omega Glory" (IIRC) we see the empty starship have two nearly identical engine rooms.

I agree. I recall when several on this site tried to determine which Engine Room was seen in each episode, but that only really considered two at that time. Technically, it works, but I'm not sure if I like the idea that we are watching the show and do not know which part of the ship we are in. Two rooms, one in each section is okay, but I'm not sure if four is too many. How would it affect one's perception of TOS if there were two identical bridges (rather than Bridge and Auxiliary Control, and there viewer did not know which one the characters were in? What about two/three/four sickbays that looked alike (this one might actually be in the ship according the to FJSTM)?

 

[blssdwlf]

I agree. I recall when several on this site tried to determine which Engine Room was seen in each episode, but that only really considered two at that time. Technically, it works, but I'm not sure if I like the idea that we are watching the show and do not know which part of the ship we are in. Two rooms, one in each section is okay, but I'm not sure if four is too many. How would it affect one's perception of TOS if there were two identical bridges (rather than Bridge and Auxiliary Control, and there viewer did not know which one the characters were in? What about two/three/four sickbays that looked alike (this one might actually be in the ship according the to FJSTM)?

Yeah, even though S1/S2 engine rooms could be put in the nacelles I wouldn't do it. Maybe service rooms or something I'd only have engine rooms in the primary and engineering hull.

 

[yotsuya]

"If you look closely"... dude, it's right there. Stop being a patronising ass.



Or alongside/between the pods at the point they attach to the central structure.



Based on...?



So the ADSB looked at Scotty's design work and said "nah, we're good, even though you've clearly thought about circumventing a situation that almost destroyed one of our ships; but you can have a whole class to mess around with and tear apart/put back together"? Really? For the lolz?



<sigh> OK cool whatevs

Go watch TWS. If you can fit that set and structure into that box in TMP, as well as the entire m/am intermix chamber, sure. I don't see how it could fit. All those small containers must have separate feeds and that plus the intermix chamber would take the entire space. Plus when Enterprise B comes along, it has the same system as the TNG Enterprise. And we have the MSD the Doug Drexler shared so we can read the callouts. It has no such box at the base of the shaft and the anti-matter is stored a deck below and further aft. Plus we see a detail of the warp core over Kirk's shoulder. Kimble's concept never appears on screen. The closest we get to it is a couple shots of the vertical shaft in the refit that only works in the front of that hull, in front of the arboretum. and there is exactly the space for such a box in the refit.

There is no sign of any such structure in TWS. None. It agrees with the MSD in Generations of the Ent B. So you put all the pieces together and you get what I said before. You can argue and call names all you like. I have researched this thoroughly. I have rewatched all the key scenes. I have drawn the set from TWS. I have tried to fit the Generations MSD into the ship and know what adjustments need to be made. We barely see that MSD on sceen, but we clearly see the warp core detail. We see the warp core of ENT A, which is a TNG design. So obviously engineering has progressed and not always followed the legendary Scotty's lead. There are other engineers in Starfleet and from the TMP story, it seems pretty clear that Scotty had a big hand in the design.

He'd be a little young to be involved with the TOS design. And for consistency there have to be some similarities and logic in how things progress. The NX-01 core is very exposed and very horizontal. The big change from TOS ships to the movie ships is going from a horizontal core to a vertical core. We have a clear before and after cutoff in the Enterprise and we have systems that make sense for each design. I just cannot see things being how you see them. I don't agree with your interpretation at all. And this thread is about my work on the Excelsior class design (mostly the exterior but the interior as well).

 

[yotsuya]

Here are the pertinent fact of the Excelsior Class warp core. We see a slice of the core and part of the engine room in Star Trek III. We see the Ent A engine room in Star Trek V. We see the warp core on the large MSD behind Tim Russ and a detail display behind Kirk. All the callouts for the TMP refit have the intermix chamber at the base of the shaft while the Hathawy and Ent D have it in the middle of the shaft. Fuel feed is the other thing that helps place design and location. In TMP the shaft goes top to bottom of the ship in that spot. There is no place for fuel storage at the top of the shaft. Excelsior is very larger in comparison and there is plenty of room for fuel anywhere you like to put it. But the TNG warp core design, echoed in the movie era Hathaway which we see in detail, a ship that has been abandoned for decades, indicates things changed during the movie era. The dates and the designs and what we see on screen indicate that the 1701 and Excelsior have one design, and the 1701-B, 1701-A, and Hathaway have another. And these are very different from the Phase II and TOS designs. So in a 50 years period, we have 4 warp core designs. We never truly see the TOS one, only hints.

In TOS I consider what we see to be a control room adjacent to the core. The core is on the deck below and not readily accessible. the gallery structure at the aft end of engineering is the Energizer, a device that converts the power of the reaction into power the ship can use. From the dialog, the 1701 refit has a similar device. In the older designs, dilithium is critical to converting the power. In the later core used in the Hathawy and 1701-D, dilithium is critical to the very matter/antimatter reaction. So there is definitely a huge technology change. Enterprise when back and reverse engineered both system to portray an older version of the TOS design. And Drexler crafted an MSD for the TOS Enterprise that shows a horizontal warp core just underneath the Engineering room. I really like where Drexler was going, but his MSD's pose a number of consistency issues, even if thy get a number of things right.

His 1701-B MSD has a number of things in the wrong place and things just don't line up that way when you do get things in the right place. Matt Jefferies had a number of things on his cross section of the original that lead to a similar, but different configuration. The vertical core we get in the 1701 refits are more like what went unseen behind the wall in TOS.

I have found a solution that for me creates a design lineage from NX-01 to 1701 to 1701-B and 1701-D. That works for me and is a nice, clean, elegant solution. Sure there are other explanations found in TOS, but none of them fit the larger picture

 

[Vale]

 

[publiusr]

Just imagine how cool two large single barrels that can swivel to face it's target would look
.

In one of the Terran Trade Authority books—that knitted together disparate cover art you had a craft called a Hornet with laserlances that seemed to jut up at an angle. The idea being the craft would appear to do a head-on, then dive. The emitters are now forward…Fire in an instant—and the craft is gone.

Excelsior’s double barreled mega phasers are hidden behind the sensor dome…which means they could be charged and the meta material dome hides that. Going by SFB, D-7s like to go on flanking runs passing at an angle. These mega phasers might angle outward a bit…allowing Excelsior to fire forward while turning away—much as the Hornet dives away.

 

[yotsuya]

In one of the Terran Trade Authority books—that knitted together disparate cover art you had a craft called a Hornet with laserlances that seemed to jut up at an angle. The idea being the craft would appear to do a head-on, then dive. The emitters are now forward…Fire in an instant—and the craft is gone.

Excelsior’s double barreled mega phasers are hidden behind the sensor dome…which means they could be charged and the meta material dome hides that. Going by SFB, D-7s like to go on flanking runs passing at an angle. These mega phasers might angle outward a bit…allowing Excelsior to fire forward while turning away—much as the Hornet dives away.

We saw the Reliant fire its mega phasers at Enterprise at an angle. So the direction of the feature has no relation to what direction it can fire. The position makes a limited field of fire due to the saucer.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Ah! They thought this through - that's because there are more phaser collimators there than just the fore- and aft-facing ones. There are two additional collimators located on swivels along the side of each of the mounts, allowing them to fire at a near 180-degree arc on that side. They have the same distinctive cylinders as the fore and aft muzzles (albeit a bit smaller) and possess the tell-tale yellow and red alert boxes above and below, very similar in color to the boxes located around the primary hull, surrounding the ball-joint emitters. Posted earlier up-thread - been looking for this photo for years - thank you for that:


Fun fact: There are also two additional single-point ball-type phaser banks mounted underneath Reliant's impulse engine module.

 

[Vale]

Ah! They thought this through - that's because there are more phaser collimators there than just the fore- and aft-facing ones. There are two additional collimators located on swivels along the side of each of the mounts, allowing them to fire at a near 180-degree arc on that side. They have the same distinctive cylinders as the fore and aft muzzles (albeit a bit smaller) and possess the tell-tale yellow and red alert boxes above and below, very similar in color to the boxes located around the primary hull, surrounding the ball-joint emitters. Posted earlier up-thread - been looking for this photo for years - thank you for that:
View attachment 27300

Fun fact: There are also two additional single-point ball-type phaser banks mounted underneath Reliant's impulse engine module.

I remember this cropping up in a previous thread – very interesting discussion

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In one of the Terran Trade Authority books—that knitted together disparate cover art you had a craft called a Hornet with laserlances that seemed to jut up at an angle. The idea being the craft would appear to do a head-on, then dive. The emitters are now forward…Fire in an instant—and the craft is gone.

Excelsior’s double barreled mega phasers are hidden behind the sensor dome…which means they could be charged and the meta material dome hides that. Going by SFB, D-7s like to go on flanking runs passing at an angle. These mega phasers might angle outward a bit…allowing Excelsior to fire forward while turning away—much as the Hornet dives away.

That still sounds like fixed firing arcs.

 

[blssdwlf]

Ah! They thought this through - that's because there are more phaser collimators there than just the fore- and aft-facing ones. There are two additional collimators located on swivels along the side of each of the mounts, allowing them to fire at a near 180-degree arc on that side. They have the same distinctive cylinders as the fore and aft muzzles (albeit a bit smaller) and possess the tell-tale yellow and red alert boxes above and below, very similar in color to the boxes located around the primary hull, surrounding the ball-joint emitters. Posted earlier up-thread - been looking for this photo for years - thank you for that:
View attachment 27300

Fun fact: There are also two additional single-point ball-type phaser banks mounted underneath Reliant's impulse engine module.

I never got the sense that the phasers fired from the fore and aft muzzles but from the ball turrets on the sides. IMHO.

 

[yotsuya]

Ah! They thought this through - that's because there are more phaser collimators there than just the fore- and aft-facing ones. There are two additional collimators located on swivels along the side of each of the mounts, allowing them to fire at a near 180-degree arc on that side. They have the same distinctive cylinders as the fore and aft muzzles (albeit a bit smaller) and possess the tell-tale yellow and red alert boxes above and below, very similar in color to the boxes located around the primary hull, surrounding the ball-joint emitters. Posted earlier up-thread - been looking for this photo for years - thank you for that:
View attachment 27300

Fun fact: There are also two additional single-point ball-type phaser banks mounted underneath Reliant's impulse engine module.

Those are more likely to be RCS points than phasers.

 

[David cgc]

It seems to be a stacked pair of cones, a bit like the phasers on the Reliant. (Please, please don't let this start a debate over if the cones on the ends are the phasers, or the nubbin on the side.) The certainly could be phaser banks. The fact that they're a bit blocked by the lower saucer wouldn't matter, since the Reliant's could fire off-axis (assuming the beams came out of the tips of the cones, which they did).

I tried. I tried to warn them, but it all happened, just the way I remember it.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Those are more likely to be RCS points Ryan phasers.

I disagree, for three reasons:

1. That whole rollbar assembly is geared towards weaponry
2. We've seen many other Miranda variants without the rollbar that should ostensibly be able to maneuver just as effectively as Reliant's variant without the need for extra RCS points
   
3. There are already RCS thrusters on the fins to the rear of the warp engine nacelles, as there are on the Connie refits, which would be sufficient to allow the ship to perform 360 degree multi-axis turns properly. Putting RCS amidships would be unnecessary and redundant. "But there are RCS thrusters close to the middle of the refit Connie on the aft of the primary hull and around the perimeter of the main nav deflector on the secondary hull", one might say. This is true, and they're there if the two hulls are separated and need to independently maneuver. Miranda's don't have separation capability and extra RCS points are unneeded.

Therefore, it is more likely that those are lateral megaphaser muzzles on swivels.

 

[danellis]

I disagree, for three reasons:

1. That whole rollbar assembly is geared towards weaponry
2. We've seen many other Miranda variants without the rollbar that should ostensibly be able to maneuver just as effectively as Reliant's variant without the need for extra RCS points
   
3. There are already RCS thrusters on the fins to the rear of the warp engine nacelles, as there are on the Connie refits, which would be sufficient to allow the ship to perform 360 degree multi-axis turns properly. Putting RCS amidships would be unnecessary and redundant. "But there are RCS thrusters close to the middle of the refit Connie on the aft of the primary hull and around the perimeter of the main nav deflector on the secondary hull", one might say. This is true, and they're there if the two hulls are separated and need to independently maneuver. Miranda's don't have separation capability and extra RCS points are unneeded.

Therefore, it is more likely that those are lateral megaphaser muzzles on swivels.

<tongue in cheek>
Perhaps those thrusters are how the rollbars are moved from one ship to another?

(sorry, couldn't resist)
dJE