The Excelsior - uncovering the design

[137th Gebirg]

The gold/red rectangles are warning areas to let people know to stay away from them and to indicate their purpose. Much like we see yellow & black striping on airplane wings and other areas on pavement and other structures where we should know not to walk. It’s a fairly simple thing, really.

 

[blssdwlf]

So, are you now saying that the gold rectangles there are the phasers? I'm now very confused. I thought you were saying the two balls on the ridge were the phasers and the gold rectangles were just markings.

As I said in my reply to you, the first volley appears to come from the rectangular spot.

And the second volley appears to come from a higher spot where the blue side piece is that happens to have what appears to be two phaser ball turrets.

The gold rectangles due to their proximity to the side phaser emitters and lack of thruster detail would suggest that they are phaser-related. The lack of thruster detail on those rectangles while the rest of the Reliant's thrusters do have details would suggest that the rollbar rectangles are not thrusters.

I could understand if they had painted that area by the pattern that governed the paired ball phaser banks on all other ships (Enterprise, Excelsior, Stargazer), but they didn't. they are painted the darker blue-gray and the gold markings are separated. if they butted up to the ridge and if the phaser ball was white like all the others, I would be forced to agree with you.

But you accept that the rollbar "megaphaser" emitter can be this darker blue-gray color? If you can accept that why not darker blue-gray objects that look like phaser ball turrets too?

But they aren't so what I see is an RCS panel. We have several different types on the various ships. The saucer edge on Enterprise, Reliant, and Excelsior. The Warp nacelle fin on Enterprise, Reliant, and Excelsior. The saucer edge on Stargazer (no thrusters). The ones around the main deflector on Enterprise. And then the ones on the Ent D (again no thrusters). Plus we can imagine that the TOS Enterprise had RCS thrusters of some sort and they were not marked or in any way visible. and from the size, if those gold rectangles are thrusters as I believe, they would have one thruster on each rectangle. They may have forgotten to add them or those rectangles were just random decorations as some of the various markings are. But the placement fits the RCS placement pattern.

Kinda weird to assume that they forgot to add those thruster details onto the rectangles on the rollbar when they detailed everything else on the same Reliant model don't you think?

I am insistent because I believe that is what they are. I don't agree with your view that they must indicate phasers. I'm also not insisting that you agree with me, but you aren't providing evidence to convince me.

Not really trying to convince you and more pointing out the inconsistency with the rectangles being RCS thrusters when they lack the thruster details. They coincidentally are right next to where the rollbar phasers fire and are more related to phasers. IMHO.

Still, your project and if you think they are thrusters then we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[yotsuya]

Not really trying to convince you and more pointing out the inconsistency with the rectangles being RCS thrusters when they lack the thruster details. They coincidentally are right next to where the rollbar phasers fire and are more related to phasers. IMHO.

You think it is inconsistent. I don't.

Still, your project and if you think they are thrusters then we'll just agree to disagree.

Yup.

 

[shapeshifter]

I've always thought the angle of the bolts not matching the direction of the ship was just sloppy, or at best, uninformed position formatting of the models.

Once their positions had been shot, no doubt at the directions of the script, the animators had no choice but to bend the beams or fudge the beam origins, or just not care, in order to match the scripted impact points.

In the end it just is what it is.

 

[blssdwlf]

I've always thought the angle of the bolts not matching the direction of the ship was just sloppy, or at best, uninformed position formatting of the models.

Once their positions had been shot, no doubt at the directions of the script, the animators had no choice but to bend the beams or fudge the beam origins, or just not care, in order to match the scripted impact points.

In the end it just is what it is.

The weird thing is that they didn't appear to be fudging it. In the nebula scene where Reliant's "megaphasers" are firing forward the tips clearly light up indicating they are firing. But in the surprise attack off the side of the Enterprise they don't light up. The VFX could've had the phaser pulses come from the saucer's ventral port phaser emitters but they didn't and had them come from the side of the rollbar. Note that in the movie the only time you see the phaser emission point and the impact points in the same shot is when the Enterprise phasers Reliant's port warp nacelle.

 

[shapeshifter]

Firing directly forward was easy for them to animate straight out the tips.

The Reliant firing sideways was a chore so they just slapped them on there and called it done.

 

[blssdwlf]

Firing directly forward was easy for them to animate straight out the tips.

The Reliant firing sideways was a chore so they just slapped them on there and called it done.

How so? The VFX are the same forwards and sideways.

 

[David cgc]

How so? The VFX are the same forwards and sideways.

Not quite, if that was the plate, then if they wanted to fire the phasers out of the saucer's side-mounted banks, it'd be coming from the lower one, out of frame. There could be concerns that showing the phasers emerge from behind the ship wouldn't read visibly. The top saucer bank would have its line-of-sight blocked by the saucer itself, so that was out, too. Showing the phaser cannons firing off-axis could've just been the best solution the person animating the phaser blasts had with what they were given to work with.

I'm sure I've seen this sequence storyboarded, though... Well, I'll be damned. The storyboards for the surprise attack sequence show Reliant's opening volley coming from the lower port saucer phaser bank. That could be an interesting animation exercise, matching the compositions from the boards instead of the final product.

 

[shapeshifter]

Any idea of movable turrets is fantasy, the tips clearly only face forward. Forward shots look great because they match the angle of the emitters.

All other shots look like crap because angled fire is coming from the same straight tips, and not much care was taken to even make them appear too. imo.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

some folks out there called it a scientific research vessel or somesuch, simply because they were running missions for Genesis.

Because we have since seen that torpedoes and probes are fired from the same casings, it seems to me that in star Trek, science ships pretty much can function as "destroyers/frigates", and are able to use the same designs. A ship with 4 torpedo launchers can fire several probes for studying a nebula, or fire several torpedoes in a fight. The Reliant's role is gets debated on this site, but I don't see why the design cannot be a "science-ship" (which actually makes more sense in for the plot), and also a ship with formidable weapons.

a gold box with red pinstripe.

The saucer and nacelle RCS markings all have the thruster detail but the rectangles next to the rollbar phasers do not

they are painted the darker blue-gray and the gold markings are separated

They are separated, but they are not really far apart, as they could be interconnected.

or those rectangles were just random decorations as some of the various markings are. But the placement fits the RCS placement pattern.

But the way the ship was painted is a strong indicator to me that they are NOT phasers and the gold rectangles are RCS markings

I agree that I see evidence that the yellow areas themselves are not phasers. It seems odd to have both the large blue emitters, apparently 2 smaller blue emitters, and two yellow emitters all in one place. That seems like more weapons than a starship would have, and more obvious weapons.

Since the ship has a number of other RCS exhaust points, can you provide clearer proof on how and why these fit in best as RCS thrusters? And also explain what you mean by the fact that they "match the pattern" as to where they are placed?

he gold rectangles due to their proximity to the side phaser emitters and lack of thruster detail would suggest that they are phaser-related

I think the obvious answer is being largely ignored: these details can literally just be access panels that are labeled with yellow paint and a red stripe. I once went to a museum that had military planes and there were numerous such labeled panels, some large enough for a person to enter, some small enough to cover equipment. The TOS ship had some markings that are similar.

Without the dark thruster detail, it does not seem like a thruster. Without the ball detail, it does not seem like a phaser. However, it is placed near some phaser, or warp drive, or photon torpedo, or mission-specific equipment. Why not just have an access panel to service whatever is underneath that yellow area that probably connects some important types of technology together?

 

[yotsuya]

Any idea of movable turrets is fantasy, the tips clearly only face forward. Forward shots look great because they match the angle of the emitters.

All other shots look like crap because angled fire is coming from the same straight tips, and not much care was taken to even make them appear too. imo.

On the regular phasers that little ball rotates to send the beam in any direction. Why can't the mega phaser emitters have a similar emitter. It is clear from the shot that they are not firing directly forward. It makes no sense for them not to have an aiming feature. The closeup of the tips show a hollow that would allow something inside to aim the beam. I would not call it fantasy. I would call it matching previously established tech.

 

[blssdwlf]

Not quite, if that was the plate, then if they wanted to fire the phasers out of the saucer's side-mounted banks, it'd be coming from the lower one, out of frame. There could be concerns that showing the phasers emerge from behind the ship wouldn't read visibly. The top saucer bank would have its line-of-sight blocked by the saucer itself, so that was out, too. Showing the phaser cannons firing off-axis could've just been the best solution the person animating the phaser blasts had with what they were given to work with.

I'm sure I've seen this sequence storyboarded, though... Well, I'll be damned. The storyboards for the surprise attack sequence show Reliant's opening volley coming from the lower port saucer phaser bank. That could be an interesting animation exercise, matching the compositions from the boards instead of the final product.

Given that the shots are of the Reliant firing at something off screen and the Enterprise receiving fire from something offscreen then a shot of the lower port saucer phaser bank firing could be swapped for the rollbar firing. I suspect that the storyboarded shot of Reliant's saucer phasers firing might've been scrapped because it was too close-up and unable to convey that it was the Reliant and it was the lower portside phasers. IMHO.

They are separated, but they are not really far apart, as they could be interconnected.

I agree that I see evidence that the yellow areas themselves are not phasers. It seems odd to have both the large blue emitters, apparently 2 smaller blue emitters, and two yellow emitters all in one place. That seems like more weapons than a starship would have, and more obvious weapons.

I think the obvious answer is being largely ignored: these details can literally just be access panels that are labeled with yellow paint and a red stripe. I once went to a museum that had military planes and there were numerous such labeled panels, some large enough for a person to enter, some small enough to cover equipment. The TOS ship had some markings that are similar.

Without the dark thruster detail, it does not seem like a thruster. Without the ball detail, it does not seem like a phaser. However, it is placed near some phaser, or warp drive, or photon torpedo, or mission-specific equipment. Why not just have an access panel to service whatever is underneath that yellow area that probably connects some important types of technology together?

Yeah, that makes more sense that those rectangles are access panels for the rollbar or 137th Gebirg's warning panels given what we see.

 

[UssGlenn]

We saw torpedo loading systems in TWOK, TUC and ST:ENT. The latter, ironically the oldest by at least 100 years, seemed the most efficient.

I wonder what the torpedo loader automation looked like in "The Search for Spock" as there were no torpedo crews

I assumed the Auto loading for torpedoes was simply turned off in TWOK because they were set up to train the cadets on how to load torpedoes if the automatic system was offline. In TSFS they just turned the regular loading system back on.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Actually, the auto-loader in TWOK was working (albeit really slow) as they were moving towards the Mutara Nebula, prepping for combat (as well as for Spock’s tube). It was in TUC where Spock & McCoy had to manually push it into the launcher after changing out the guidance systems. Must have been another malfunction with the new ship.

 

[blssdwlf]

Actually, the auto-loader in TWOK was working (albeit really slow) as they were moving towards the Mutara Nebula, prepping for combat (as well as for Spock’s tube). It was in TUC where Spock & McCoy had to manually push it into the launcher after changing out the guidance systems. Must have been another malfunction with the new ship.

I'm not so sure about Spock and McCoy manually pushing the torpedo into the launcher in TUC. We see them behind the torpedo but they appear to be just watching.

 

[yotsuya]

I'm not so sure about Spock and McCoy manually pushing the torpedo into the launcher in TUC. We see them behind the torpedo but they appear to be just watching.

I agree. If you watch that section, they are working on the torpedo as it is moving. They are not pushing it.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Actually, now that I look at it, it appears to be both - it was rolling along very slowly as they were performing their "surgery" on the guidance system, and then when Kirk yells, "where's that damn torpedo!?" McCoy responds, "she's ready Jim - Lock and load!" as he and Spock quickly push it the rest of the way into the breach. It wobbles around awkwardly when they do this. Definitely not an automated process towards the end.

 

[blssdwlf]

Actually, now that I look at it, it appears to be both - it was rolling along very slowly as they were performing their "surgery" on the guidance system, and then when Kirk yells, "where's that damn torpedo!?" McCoy responds, "she's ready Jim - Lock and load!" as he and Spock quickly push it the rest of the way into the breach. It wobbles around awkwardly when they do this. Definitely not an automated process towards the end.

When you see the torpedo slide into the launch chamber? you can see McCoy (and later Spock) but they don't appear to be moving forward with the torpedo to push it in. They appear to be moving sideways to watch it load. Maybe the platform they are riding on has something that does the actual push?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Can't really see the mechanism responsible for pushing it in here. There are no rails or gap in the floor where a conveyor belt or pushing armature would necessarily need to move in order for the torpedo to be fully placed within the breach, and the higher speed at which it goes into the tube compared to the slower traveling along earlier (and wobbly nature of the movement towards the end) indicates that it might have had help at some point through humanoid intervention. Basically giving it one final big push so that it slides all the way in under its own momentum without mechanical involvement. Admittedly, it has been a long time since I've seen TUC, but that particular segment always led me to believe they just urgently pushed the thing in at Kirk's insistence because they were about to go boom. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[blssdwlf]

I'll throw another wrinkle into the torpedo load mechanism... In the TWOK funeral scene the camera doesn't show how the torpedo loads into the tube there and in the reverse angle there isn't any obvious push mechanism. Maybe in both TUC and TWOK there is a magnetic or mini-tractor beam that pulls the torpedo into the chamber once it gets close enough?

If in TUC McCoy or Spock pushed it must have been just from where they were sitting because they don't move forward with the torpedo as it slides in (to maintain contact for the push).