The Eternal Question: TNG or DS9

[Nightdiamond]

DS9 IMO is the only show that could be done today with just updated production values/ special effects and mostly hold up to modern TV audience viewing.

The way DS9 was produced can easily hold up today. There are certain things about TNG that seem outdated. For Example ----

TNG's idea of a religious/prime directive episode was Picard being mistaken for a god by a less advanced culture. He beams down, gives a speech, gets shot, but recovers and the natives believe him and assures him they'll do the logical thing and the problem is solved.

DS9 idea of a religious/PD episode was separation of church and state. Keiko is teaching a class with mostly Bajoran students. Kai Winn comes in and observes. Keiko wont refer to the wormhole aliens as the prophets, because she says her job is to teach science and knowledge. She uses the technical term.

She is pressured to. She refuses. Her classroom is bombed later. Tensions and debates arise. They call a peace conference on the promenade. Kai Winn secretly convinces a Bajoran worker to try and assassinate one of the speakers. She is apprehended. Kai Winn backs down and the immediate issue is settled, but the cultural tension and issue remains and Kai Winn is still lurking around.

For me, DS9's version is more meaty and interesting to watch.

I'm still baffled that Voyager and TNG has the most re watched Trek shows on Netflix. And BBC America airs all three except DS9.

 

[WebLurker]

And BBC America airs all three except DS9.

Yeah, by what stretch of logic does an American show belong on a channel for British TV?

 

[Prax]

PBS airs tons of British shows

The way DS9 was produced can easily hold up today. There are certain things about TNG that seem outdated. For Example ----

TNG's idea of a religious/prime directive episode was Picard being mistaken for a god by a less advanced culture. He beams down, gives a speech, gets shot, but recovers and the natives believe him and assures him they'll do the logical thing and the problem is solved.

DS9 idea of a religious/PD episode was separation of church and state. Keiko is teaching a class with mostly Bajoran students. Kai Winn comes in and observes. Keiko wont refer to the wormhole aliens as the prophets, because she says her job is to teach science and knowledge. She uses the technical term.

She is pressured to. She refuses. Her classroom is bombed later. Tensions and debates arise. They call a peace conference on the promenade. Kai Winn secretly convinces a Bajoran worker to try and assassinate one of the speakers. She is apprehended. Kai Winn backs down and the immediate issue is settled, but the cultural tension and issue remains and Kai Winn is still lurking around.

For me, DS9's version is more meaty and interesting to watch.

I'm still baffled that Voyager and TNG has the most re watched Trek shows on Netflix. And BBC America airs all three except DS9.

In the DS9 episode, there's no resolution and it's never later resolved. Wynn overreacts and causes a big incidenti, while Keiko defiantly remains unwilling to compromise and is insensitive, but it turns out the whole thing was a just a ploy for Wynn to assassinate a political rival. If these were normal, real life, sensible people, this would have all been worked out at a conference table, but for the sake of drama, people have to act irrationally. There may result some heated conversation at that conference table, but that's how this kind of situation would go, and that's what the TNG version of this would look like.
If I remember correctly, the situation was used to get Keiko off the station. Each episode is telling a different kind of story, and they both have their benefits and downsides.

 

[Beckerjr]

I'm still baffled that Voyager and TNG has the most re watched Trek shows on Netflix. And BBC America airs all three except DS9.

Not me. Those shows are more straight forward with their stories and having a procedural setup like most network shows still are. Its easy to just watch a random episode here and their where as DS9's more serialized nature makes for a bigger commitment.. They lend themselves to syndication better too.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Not me. Those shows are more straight forward with their stories and having a procedural setup like most network shows still are. Its easy to just watch a random episode here and their where as DS9's more serialized nature makes for a bigger commitment.. They lend themselves to syndication better too.

I agree with that. Also, I think TNG gets an obvious reputation boost (lots of people who are just getting into Trek now will almost certainly have had heard lots of good things about it, not so much about the others) and VOY gets sort of the opposite (lots of fans who might have given up on the series when it was airing see Netflix as an easy, free opportunity to give it another shot - something I've done myself, while my DS9 viewing is mostly dvd because that's the only series I like enough to own).

 

[Nightdiamond]

In the DS9 episode, there's no resolution and it's never later resolved. Wynn overreacts and causes a big incidenti, while Keiko defiantly remains unwilling to compromise and is insensitive, but it turns out the whole thing was a just a ploy for Wynn to assassinate a political rival. If these were normal, real life, sensible people, this would have all been worked out at a conference table, but for the sake of drama, people have to act irrationally.

The thing is, some of these characters were not the most sensible people, because of their beliefs and background. But their behavior has real life parallels. Starfleet is in an area that is very religious, almost to the point of fanaticism. They barely trust outsiders. Kai Winn was one of them - an orthodox fundamentalist.

That's what makes this an interesting episode to watch-- separation of church and state that got debated throughout the episode. Kai Winn and the extremists wanted outsiders to teach that wormhole aliens are "prophets". Keiko refuses and said that was their job; hers was to teach science and spread knowledge. Then everyone else got involved. The debates went back and forth.

If we can believe there are other humanoid cultures out there, with concepts similar to ours, then you can easily see this problem happening.

There may result some heated conversation at that conference table, but that's how this kind of situation would go, and that's what the TNG version of this would look like.

But that may be part of the problem with TNG in hindsight-- most plots are solved by the end of the episode with a speech, technobabble or conference table. It's all easily sewn up by the end of the episode so they can go to the next week's episode and plot and do the same thing.

It could get really bad.

In one episode they were carrying alien diplomats that hated each other to a conference. But the main plot is about Picard being possessed and the crew saving him in the nick of time.

At the end of the episode Tasha tells him and Riker that a diplomat is missing and may have been killed and cooked and eaten by the enemy diplomats.
Picard says he needs a rest and says Riker can handle it. Everyone smiles and smirks, with comical music in the background.

That's too much episodic TV for you.

 

[1001001]

I'm still baffled that Voyager and TNG has the most re watched Trek shows on Netflix. And BBC America airs all three except DS9.

It's because VOY and TNG are better.

 

[arch101]

TNG is probably the best "conventional" Trek, ie: crew on a spaceship visiting "planet of the week". But, IMHO, nothing in Trek comes close to DS9. I just watched the entire series again for the first time in years and I find that, as I get older, I appreciate it much more. It's like an epic novel with a beginning, middle and end and you feel like you've watched a Wagner opera when you finish it. When I was young and watched it first-run in the '90s, I thought the war was cool and that the series as a whole moved at a better pace than TNG and Voy. Now, in middle age, I think the show is the most mature of the Trek series and it's the Trek I most enjoy watching. It's aged extremely well and I can understand why it seems to be picking up all kinds of new, young fans in streaming.

 

[eschaton]

TNG is probably the best "conventional" Trek, ie: crew on a spaceship visiting "planet of the week". But, IMHO, nothing in Trek comes close to DS9. I just watched the entire series again for the first time in years and I find that, as I get older, I appreciate it much more. It's like an epic novel with a beginning, middle and end and you feel like you've watched a Wagner opera when you finish it. When I was young and watched it first-run in the '90s, I thought the war was cool and that the series as a whole moved at a better pace than TNG and Voy. Now, in middle age, I think the show is the most mature of the Trek series and it's the Trek I most enjoy watching. It's aged extremely well and I can understand why it seems to be picking up all kinds of new, young fans in streaming.

Indeed. When the show was on the air, I was a teenager as well. Now I'm 40 - and a dad - and things like the bond between Jake and Benjamin - or the O'Briens - have a whole new meaning to me.

 

[SolarisOne]

When I was a child, TNG was Star Trek to me. Then, I grew up.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's because VOY and TNG are better.

This is crazy! People are missing out on so much.

TNG at one point, defined Trek for me.

One way to say this is, I didn't know how good TNG could be, until I started watching DS9. And that was when I noticed a lot of differences between them, like dialog. The dialog between characters in TNG seems pretty standard. The dialog in DS9 appears more relatable and complex by comparison.

The supporting characters were pretty much all about their jobs, and we never really got a three dimensional view of their lives. They were just too limited by the episode of the week format to really get

By Nemesis, 15 years later notice how characters like Geordi, Worf and Crusher are pretty much the same people doing the same thing. They hardly had anything to do in the movie, other than being security,engineer and doctor. The episodic format pretty much defined their characters and limited them too much.

 

[WebLurker]

If I remember correctly, the situation was used to get Keiko off the station. Each episode is telling a different kind of story, and they both have their benefits and downsides.

Nope, that was a later episode.

 

[fireproof78]

By Nemesis, 15 years later notice how characters like Geordi, Worf and Crusher are pretty much the same people doing the same thing. They hardly had anything to do in the movie, other than being security,engineer and doctor. The episodic format pretty much defined their characters and limited them too much.

Exactly. It's why episodic TV doesn't work as well for me. Feeling like these people are just stuck irritates me to know end.

 

[Arpy]

Exactly. It's why episodic TV doesn't work as well for me. Feeling like these people are just stuck irritates me to know end.

A few thoughts:

That was one of a hundred problems with an already bad movie.

Picard was clearly changed in FC. And as early as GEN he was debating what to do with himself next. He chose to remain a captain? So did Kirk.

I remember a story about Wil Wheaton returning to the set for an ep after he’d left the series for awhile and the cast remarking how much he’d changed and grown while noting the lack of reciprocal reaction. They were all adults set in their ways...in the real world, they didn’t change much.

Finally, there are pros and cons to any different kind of storytelling, and change isn’t always for the best. I.e. red contact lens Dukat. Defanged Borg. Etc

 

[fireproof78]

Finally, there are pros and cons to any different kind of storytelling, and change isn’t always for the best. I.e. red contact lens Dukat. Defanged Borg. Etc

Certainly, and I agree to a point. But, I'm more discussing TNG proper to the films. I think the films did well with Picard (and Data to a point) but the rest of crew felt rather static. And, while I agree with real world parallels, we are also talking about officers on the front lines of explored space. I would expect more change in them than from a Hollywood actor. Perhaps that's unreasonable, but there it is.

It's all in the presentation for me as well. Picard never felt like he was at that crossroads like Kirk. To me, he was captain of the Enterprise and that was that. But, FC definitely presented a different Picard than before, so kudos to that. But, the show itself is not something I like revisiting as often as I do DS9.

 

[Arpy]

But, the show itself is not something I like revisiting as often as I do DS9.

It’s a matter of individual tastes and moods, I think. I like revisiting TNG more on my Netflix, yet I find myself posting more in the DS9 forum here lately.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s a matter of individual tastes and moods, I think. I like revisiting TNG more on my Netflix, yet I find myself posting more in the DS9 forum here lately.

I agree. I decided to try TNG once and I could not get past Encounter at Farpoint. Q irritates me so freaking much (a credit to de Lancie's performance for sure but ugh) while DS9 is simple enough to turn on and go forward.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Exactly. It's why episodic TV doesn't work as well for me. Feeling like these people are just stuck irritates me to know end.

A few thoughts:

That was one of a hundred problems with an already bad movie.

Picard was clearly changed in FC. And as early as GEN he was debating what to do with himself next. He chose to remain a captain? So did Kirk.

I remember a story about Wil Wheaton returning to the set for an ep after he’d left the series for awhile and the cast remarking how much he’d changed and grown while noting the lack of reciprocal reaction. They were all adults set in their ways...in the real world, they didn’t change much.

Finally, there are pros and cons to any different kind of storytelling, and change isn’t always for the best. I.e. red contact lens Dukat. Defanged Borg. Etc

In this case I think Geordi Crusher and Worf remained the same people that they were 15 years prior because that's the particular style of TNG. And a result of the episodic format.

I could see it in the movie, for example - There was a cut scene where Wesley in uniform was at the wedding talking about girls and tech stuff like nothing happened.

Geordi and Crusher really don't have much to say or do except fill their roles as doctor and engineer.

If you look at Worf, even he remained the same-- he was acting as a security officer throughout the movie. There was no mention of him being an ambassador now or his marriage to Jadzia- he had to be good ol security chief Worf for the role. They did the same thing in Insurrection.

It could have been Geordi or Crusher getting forced to transfer or married to someone at the beginning of the movie. But Nemesis focused more on the 'big four' - Picard, Data, Riker and Shinzon because it was following this basic format.

 

[Prax]

Worf is the same in TNG movies as he is on DS9. Also, Worf had a lot of growth and development in TNG(the series). I would argue he changed a lot more throughout his seven seasons on TNG compared to his 4 seasons on DS9. On DS9, he almost regressed

 

[Nightdiamond]

Worf is the same in TNG movies as he is on DS9. Also, Worf had a lot of growth and development in TNG(the series). I would argue he changed a lot more throughout his seven seasons on TNG compared to his 4 seasons on DS9. On DS9, he almost regressed

IMO, Worf got to express himself a lot more concerning his history, experiences opinions in DS9 than he ever did in TNG. He definably got scenes and episodes devoted to him in TNG, but I think DS9 really set him free.

Still as far as how TNG encouraged static characters, Insurrection and Nemesis said nothing about him being and ambassador now - there's no conversation about it, no quick mention. Instead he shows up, the plot unfolds, and Worf is acting as a security officer--just like he was on the show. It just seems like the format freezes the characters into their roles.

Geordi acts as he does on the TV show. Wesley and Beverly act as they did on the show.

Picard was clearly changed in FC. And as early as GEN he was debating what to do with himself next. He chose to remain a captain? So did Kirk.

I have a feeling Picard and the other TNG characters (if they appear) are going to sound and act a lot differently on "Trek Picard" because it's (probably) going to be serialized and that's going to free them up to behave and express themselves a lot differently than they did on the original show.