The Eternal Question: TNG or DS9

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Spirit of 73, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. HelenofBorg

    HelenofBorg Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2019
    Although I enjoyed TNG a lot, hands down I give this to DS9. There was something very special about DS9, the whole story of it, the development of the characters and the politics between the various empires that existed. You got more of a rounded picture and not just a Federation perspective.
     
  2. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    The way DS9 was produced can easily hold up today. There are certain things about TNG that seem outdated. For Example ----

    TNG's idea of a religious/prime directive episode was Picard being mistaken for a god by a less advanced culture. He beams down, gives a speech, gets shot, but recovers and the natives believe him and assures him they'll do the logical thing and the problem is solved.

    DS9 idea of a religious/PD episode was separation of church and state. Keiko is teaching a class with mostly Bajoran students. Kai Winn comes in and observes. Keiko wont refer to the wormhole aliens as the prophets, because she says her job is to teach science and knowledge. She uses the technical term.

    She is pressured to. She refuses. Her classroom is bombed later. Tensions and debates arise. They call a peace conference on the promenade. Kai Winn secretly convinces a Bajoran worker to try and assassinate one of the speakers. She is apprehended. Kai Winn backs down and the immediate issue is settled, but the cultural tension and issue remains and Kai Winn is still lurking around.

    For me, DS9's version is more meaty and interesting to watch.

    I'm still baffled that Voyager and TNG has the most re watched Trek shows on Netflix. And BBC America airs all three except DS9.
     
    Spaceship Jo, SolarisOne and PSGarak like this.
  3. WebLurker

    WebLurker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Yeah, by what stretch of logic does an American show belong on a channel for British TV?
     
  4. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Middle West
    PBS airs tons of British shows

    In the DS9 episode, there's no resolution and it's never later resolved. Wynn overreacts and causes a big incidenti, while Keiko defiantly remains unwilling to compromise and is insensitive, but it turns out the whole thing was a just a ploy for Wynn to assassinate a political rival. If these were normal, real life, sensible people, this would have all been worked out at a conference table, but for the sake of drama, people have to act irrationally. There may result some heated conversation at that conference table, but that's how this kind of situation would go, and that's what the TNG version of this would look like.
    If I remember correctly, the situation was used to get Keiko off the station. Each episode is telling a different kind of story, and they both have their benefits and downsides.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  5. Beckerjr

    Beckerjr Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2019
    Location:
    Arizona
    Not me. Those shows are more straight forward with their stories and having a procedural setup like most network shows still are. Its easy to just watch a random episode here and their where as DS9's more serialized nature makes for a bigger commitment.. They lend themselves to syndication better too.
     
    Spaceship Jo, Longinus and 1001001 like this.
  6. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I agree with that. Also, I think TNG gets an obvious reputation boost (lots of people who are just getting into Trek now will almost certainly have had heard lots of good things about it, not so much about the others) and VOY gets sort of the opposite (lots of fans who might have given up on the series when it was airing see Netflix as an easy, free opportunity to give it another shot - something I've done myself, while my DS9 viewing is mostly dvd because that's the only series I like enough to own).
     
    Spaceship Jo likes this.
  7. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    The thing is, some of these characters were not the most sensible people, because of their beliefs and background. But their behavior has real life parallels. Starfleet is in an area that is very religious, almost to the point of fanaticism. They barely trust outsiders. Kai Winn was one of them - an orthodox fundamentalist.

    That's what makes this an interesting episode to watch-- separation of church and state that got debated throughout the episode. Kai Winn and the extremists wanted outsiders to teach that wormhole aliens are "prophets". Keiko refuses and said that was their job; hers was to teach science and spread knowledge. Then everyone else got involved. The debates went back and forth.

    If we can believe there are other humanoid cultures out there, with concepts similar to ours, then you can easily see this problem happening.

    But that may be part of the problem with TNG in hindsight-- most plots are solved by the end of the episode with a speech, technobabble or conference table. It's all easily sewn up by the end of the episode so they can go to the next week's episode and plot and do the same thing.

    It could get really bad.

    In one episode they were carrying alien diplomats that hated each other to a conference. But the main plot is about Picard being possessed and the crew saving him in the nick of time.

    At the end of the episode Tasha tells him and Riker that a diplomat is missing and may have been killed and cooked and eaten by the enemy diplomats.
    Picard says he needs a rest and says Riker can handle it. Everyone smiles and smirks, with comical music in the background.

    That's too much episodic TV for you.
     
  8. 1001001

    1001001 Pull Up a Groove and Get Fabulous! Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Location:
    The Great Wide Open
    It's because VOY and TNG are better.

    :techman:
     
    Prax, Longinus and Cutie McWhiskers like this.
  9. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Location:
    Quincy, MA
    TNG is probably the best "conventional" Trek, ie: crew on a spaceship visiting "planet of the week". But, IMHO, nothing in Trek comes close to DS9. I just watched the entire series again for the first time in years and I find that, as I get older, I appreciate it much more. It's like an epic novel with a beginning, middle and end and you feel like you've watched a Wagner opera when you finish it. When I was young and watched it first-run in the '90s, I thought the war was cool and that the series as a whole moved at a better pace than TNG and Voy. Now, in middle age, I think the show is the most mature of the Trek series and it's the Trek I most enjoy watching. It's aged extremely well and I can understand why it seems to be picking up all kinds of new, young fans in streaming.
     
  10. eschaton

    eschaton Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Indeed. When the show was on the air, I was a teenager as well. Now I'm 40 - and a dad - and things like the bond between Jake and Benjamin - or the O'Briens - have a whole new meaning to me.
     
    Greg Cox and PSGarak like this.
  11. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Location:
    Ben Sisko's MF Pimphand
    When I was a child, TNG was Star Trek to me. Then, I grew up.
     
    Nightdiamond likes this.
  12. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    This is crazy! :lol: People are missing out on so much.

    TNG at one point, defined Trek for me.

    One way to say this is, I didn't know how good TNG could be, until I started watching DS9. And that was when I noticed a lot of differences between them, like dialog. The dialog between characters in TNG seems pretty standard. The dialog in DS9 appears more relatable and complex by comparison.

    The supporting characters were pretty much all about their jobs, and we never really got a three dimensional view of their lives. They were just too limited by the episode of the week format to really get

    By Nemesis, 15 years later notice how characters like Geordi, Worf and Crusher are pretty much the same people doing the same thing. They hardly had anything to do in the movie, other than being security,engineer and doctor. The episodic format pretty much defined their characters and limited them too much.
     
    Spaceship Jo, SolarisOne and PSGarak like this.
  13. WebLurker

    WebLurker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Nope, that was a later episode.
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Exactly. It's why episodic TV doesn't work as well for me. Feeling like these people are just stuck irritates me to know end.
     
    Nightdiamond, SolarisOne and PSGarak like this.
  15. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    A few thoughts:

    That was one of a hundred problems with an already bad movie.

    Picard was clearly changed in FC. And as early as GEN he was debating what to do with himself next. He chose to remain a captain? So did Kirk.

    I remember a story about Wil Wheaton returning to the set for an ep after he’d left the series for awhile and the cast remarking how much he’d changed and grown while noting the lack of reciprocal reaction. They were all adults set in their ways...in the real world, they didn’t change much.

    Finally, there are pros and cons to any different kind of storytelling, and change isn’t always for the best. I.e. red contact lens Dukat. Defanged Borg. Etc
     
    Longinus likes this.
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Certainly, and I agree to a point. But, I'm more discussing TNG proper to the films. I think the films did well with Picard (and Data to a point) but the rest of crew felt rather static. And, while I agree with real world parallels, we are also talking about officers on the front lines of explored space. I would expect more change in them than from a Hollywood actor. Perhaps that's unreasonable, but there it is.

    It's all in the presentation for me as well. Picard never felt like he was at that crossroads like Kirk. To me, he was captain of the Enterprise and that was that. But, FC definitely presented a different Picard than before, so kudos to that. But, the show itself is not something I like revisiting as often as I do DS9.
     
  17. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    It’s a matter of individual tastes and moods, I think. I like revisiting TNG more on my Netflix, yet I find myself posting more in the DS9 forum here lately.
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    I agree. I decided to try TNG once and I could not get past Encounter at Farpoint. Q irritates me so freaking much (a credit to de Lancie's performance for sure but ugh) while DS9 is simple enough to turn on and go forward.
     
  19. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    In this case I think Geordi Crusher and Worf remained the same people that they were 15 years prior because that's the particular style of TNG. And a result of the episodic format.

    I could see it in the movie, for example - There was a cut scene where Wesley in uniform was at the wedding talking about girls and tech stuff like nothing happened.

    Geordi and Crusher really don't have much to say or do except fill their roles as doctor and engineer.

    If you look at Worf, even he remained the same-- he was acting as a security officer throughout the movie. There was no mention of him being an ambassador now or his marriage to Jadzia- he had to be good ol security chief Worf for the role. They did the same thing in Insurrection.

    It could have been Geordi or Crusher getting forced to transfer or married to someone at the beginning of the movie. But Nemesis focused more on the 'big four' - Picard, Data, Riker and Shinzon because it was following this basic format.
     
    SolarisOne likes this.
  20. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Middle West
    Worf is the same in TNG movies as he is on DS9. Also, Worf had a lot of growth and development in TNG(the series). I would argue he changed a lot more throughout his seven seasons on TNG compared to his 4 seasons on DS9. On DS9, he almost regressed