Being young is kinda like cheating.
Youth should be more criminal than steroids.
Youth should be more criminal than steroids.
The erotic tension between Seven and Janeway in "The Omega Directive"
- Thread starter hxclespaulplayer
- Start date
Well, lately - and thanks to Bryan Fuller's public interventions for ST: Discovery's project - I learnt that it had been envisaged in Seven's profile that, this new character is attracted by women. But seen the general outcry (and the insulting mails), Brennan & Cie gave up the idea even if at the beginning, they agreed to include a lesbian or bi-sexual character in the Voyager series (besides, if I remember well, they had already tested the idea in DS9's "Rejoined", where Jadzia Dax & Lenara Kahn fallen in again in the present time).
Even if a great part of me trully think or want to believe that Janeway & Seven's relationship is of the order of the one that can have a mother and a daughter (even if there is no direct family ties, the emotional attachment that they feel the one to the other one isn't less strong there), a little part agrees to say that a sort of late Oedipus complex from Seven (who could legally wonder about her feelings towards Kathryn Janeway, not as capitain of Voyager but as human being who accepted to share with her, a certain degree of intimacy - that the others with the exception of Chakotay did not have - since her arrival on board. Plus, in her mind, gender and age are irrelevant), isn't to be ruled out. Result: as much Janeway would have been surprised and even embarrassed* by such a situation, as much Seven, who is still emotionally immature, wouldn't see (or understand) the situation as a potential harm: don't forget she is in search of then adapting to her humanity, what includes the experiment of her feelings (thoughts which last and maintain the emotion and its internal chemical reaction) and her emotions (physical reactions in the face of a pleasant or disagreeable experience) and of course, making some mistakes (shortly after she arrived, didn't she informed Harry Kim that she had insufficient time for flirting and that "if he wished to indulge in copulation that he should disrobe immediately" or something like that?! -> when Janeway and the Doctor invited her to date, it seems logical to me to see Seven temptered to practice the dating process/developing loving feelings with both sexes as an experience before deciding the most relevant in her mind ...though we only saw leaning toward male representants (Lt Chapman very briefly then engaging a romance with Chakotay, that she frequented recently).
I don't know if it was conscious or not from Kate Mulgrew & Jeri Ryan (they use to declare not to understand why people think that their characters are more than mother/daughter or mentor/disciple), but yes, their acting can be sometimes (including Omega Directive) equivocal. It's strange and amusing... AND not trivial to see so many J/7 (in fact, I think that they are as numerous as J/C!).
* (even if Jeri Taylor created the character of Janeway as a Starfleet capitain, who seems to be only interested in male representation, nothing prevents her to fall in love with a woman. But seeing how Janeway is in Taylor's Mosaic and Pathways, & Voyager's series, her moral code is such that getting involved romantically with any of her crew would be inappropriate as (the highest = capitain) commanding officer, let alone Seven, an ex-Borg who still doesn't know what it means to be Human, or even if Human is what she wants to be. Janeway would have the impression to take advantage of her youth, her inexperience and even, her immaturity) -> that is what makes the difference between her and the binomial formed by Chakotay / the Doctor, IMHO.
Even if a great part of me trully think or want to believe that Janeway & Seven's relationship is of the order of the one that can have a mother and a daughter (even if there is no direct family ties, the emotional attachment that they feel the one to the other one isn't less strong there), a little part agrees to say that a sort of late Oedipus complex from Seven (who could legally wonder about her feelings towards Kathryn Janeway, not as capitain of Voyager but as human being who accepted to share with her, a certain degree of intimacy - that the others with the exception of Chakotay did not have - since her arrival on board. Plus, in her mind, gender and age are irrelevant), isn't to be ruled out. Result: as much Janeway would have been surprised and even embarrassed* by such a situation, as much Seven, who is still emotionally immature, wouldn't see (or understand) the situation as a potential harm: don't forget she is in search of then adapting to her humanity, what includes the experiment of her feelings (thoughts which last and maintain the emotion and its internal chemical reaction) and her emotions (physical reactions in the face of a pleasant or disagreeable experience) and of course, making some mistakes (shortly after she arrived, didn't she informed Harry Kim that she had insufficient time for flirting and that "if he wished to indulge in copulation that he should disrobe immediately" or something like that?! -> when Janeway and the Doctor invited her to date, it seems logical to me to see Seven temptered to practice the dating process/developing loving feelings with both sexes as an experience before deciding the most relevant in her mind ...though we only saw leaning toward male representants (Lt Chapman very briefly then engaging a romance with Chakotay, that she frequented recently).
I don't know if it was conscious or not from Kate Mulgrew & Jeri Ryan (they use to declare not to understand why people think that their characters are more than mother/daughter or mentor/disciple), but yes, their acting can be sometimes (including Omega Directive) equivocal. It's strange and amusing... AND not trivial to see so many J/7 (in fact, I think that they are as numerous as J/C!).
* (even if Jeri Taylor created the character of Janeway as a Starfleet capitain, who seems to be only interested in male representation, nothing prevents her to fall in love with a woman. But seeing how Janeway is in Taylor's Mosaic and Pathways, & Voyager's series, her moral code is such that getting involved romantically with any of her crew would be inappropriate as (the highest = capitain) commanding officer, let alone Seven, an ex-Borg who still doesn't know what it means to be Human, or even if Human is what she wants to be. Janeway would have the impression to take advantage of her youth, her inexperience and even, her immaturity) -> that is what makes the difference between her and the binomial formed by Chakotay / the Doctor, IMHO.
Ghislaine - dare I say it? - I find myself in complete agreement with Mulgew & Ryan. They know their characters, best. However, your arguments were well-thought-out and detailed. Had I been on the fence, so to speak, regarding this subject ... it's not without possibility, that I may have found myself being swayed.
I hear their collector value is increased that way.
I don't see it, but then again searching for such relationships its not part of my worldview.
Mother / daughter...
mentor / student...
BFF ? x 2... these are what I search for.
Over the years I have come to realize that people who feel under represented in popular culture will create what they need, even if its not what the writer or actors intended. Towards that end I've mellowed and say, "to each their own."
Mother / daughter...
mentor / student...
BFF ? x 2... these are what I search for.
Over the years I have come to realize that people who feel under represented in popular culture will create what they need, even if its not what the writer or actors intended. Towards that end I've mellowed and say, "to each their own."
Your being sarcastic surely?
To the OP... No, I don't see it in the least. Honestly, I think you may be projecting your own desires onto these characters.
Hotness is really not that important.
90 percent of the adult population of planet Earth is ugly people orgasming in small groups.
Pretty people are just an annoying distraction.
90 percent of the adult population of planet Earth is ugly people orgasming in small groups.
Pretty people are just an annoying distraction.
The tension betwixt Mulgrew and Ryan may well have made its way to the screen. Jeri stole Kate's show right out from under her very nose ... regardless of what the credits might've said. And Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!
I think Mulgrew was expecting Jeri to be little more than a bimbo, meant to increase the audience, especially among the teanagers, and was taken aback by her real acting abilities.
When Kate went to complain, all Berman and Braga told her was, "... stop whinging."
If it's all eye of the beholder/to each his own, then there isn't much of a discussion to be had, and no determination of what the writers + actors intended can be made, as that becomes whatever the viewer wants. Yet here we are, 3 pages into the thread.
I'd say that viewpoint is something of an insult to the artists--writers and actors--as they always intend something, and we should appreciate their vision for what it is, not what we want it to be.
I am, myself, definitely of the "WTF?" mindset here. Looked to me like they were an inch or two from killing each other this ep, not kissing each other. Sometimes anger is just anger, not prelude to makeup sex.
I'd say that viewpoint is something of an insult to the artists--writers and actors--as they always intend something, and we should appreciate their vision for what it is, not what we want it to be.
I am, myself, definitely of the "WTF?" mindset here. Looked to me like they were an inch or two from killing each other this ep, not kissing each other. Sometimes anger is just anger, not prelude to makeup sex.
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Which just made her angrier. You don't mess with Kate Mulgrew. I wouldn't anyway. I understand why she was angry, she just shouldn't have taken it out on Ryan.
The thing is they both understand that now, which is what matters.
...not going to lie this thought crossed my mind as I watched this ep yesterday... haven't gotten to the later eps where this may be on "display" in a different manner or enhanced, but sexual component of their interactions did cross my mind. And I'm a (very open minded) straight female... Still, the platonic, nurturing, mother-daughter relationship seems even more obvious to me and I have to think that's what the direct aim of TPTB was.
This point I respectfully disagree with... as a work of art it's automatically and fully open to interpretation by the viewer. If someone wants to see something that is personal and different than the intent of the artist, then they should be permitted, freely, to engage in that vision. I would say that TV shows, with their more direct, linear way of storytelling, fall less into this category or realm, but this unequivocally (imho, of course) holds true for static works of art and film.
Well, I don't know if the tension is "erotic" here but for sure, Janeway and Seven's relationship has changed a bit since 2 or 3 previous episodes --it's still intense, but more respectful. Seven doesn't act as wilfully as before; her instincts may still be running strong, but she's learning to rein them in when given an order. Particularly given the intensity of her belief in the molecule, her obedience to orders she disagreed with is a mark of maturity she didn't possess a month ago. Her differences with Janeway were resolved with words, not acts.
But I agree, I tthink that the relationship between Janeway & Seven could have been more than just a "mother/daughter"'s one, like the scene between them near the end of "The Voyager's Conspiracy". Besides, I read that Bryan Fuller has asked that Seven be interested in women, emotionally and physically.
The last scene in Holodeck 1, when DaVinci's program is running, is sweet. These are the moments Janeway lives for--to be present when a crewman undergoes a major life-changing experience, and she can be there to share it and to put it into some sort of perspective.
But I agree, I tthink that the relationship between Janeway & Seven could have been more than just a "mother/daughter"'s one, like the scene between them near the end of "The Voyager's Conspiracy". Besides, I read that Bryan Fuller has asked that Seven be interested in women, emotionally and physically.
The last scene in Holodeck 1, when DaVinci's program is running, is sweet. These are the moments Janeway lives for--to be present when a crewman undergoes a major life-changing experience, and she can be there to share it and to put it into some sort of perspective.
Seven thought that Janeway was her daughter.
Other way around.
They both thought that they were the other's mother.
Seven, had more of a right to be Janeways mother though, since she knew everything, when all Janeway brought to the table was the same social graces anyone else on the ship except Tuvok could teach Seven.
They both thought that they were the other's mother.
Seven, had more of a right to be Janeways mother though, since she knew everything, when all Janeway brought to the table was the same social graces anyone else on the ship except Tuvok could teach Seven.
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