The End Of Time Part 2 - Comment & Grading SPOILERS
- Thread starter Samurai8472
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Absolutely bloody loved every second. A triumphant, bombastic ball-buster of an exit, and what a poignant end to the RTD era. So excited about the future, Matt Smith was bloody brilliant in his post-regeneration trauma and looks to sustain it judging by the new series trailer.
I feel very strange to be in the "fuck the haters" crowd this time... but y'know what? Fuck 'em.*
* Directed at the already vocal "anti-Matt Smith" crowd, not those who didn't like the finale, which is fair enough.
I feel very strange to be in the "fuck the haters" crowd this time... but y'know what? Fuck 'em.*
* Directed at the already vocal "anti-Matt Smith" crowd, not those who didn't like the finale, which is fair enough.
Being a big baby, I cried at the Doctor making his choice and the following companion montage. 
But I did like that they maintained the one over-arching theme about "prophecies" in Dr Who. The Doctor could have broken the prophecy and stayed as himself.
So in the end, the Doctor was not helplessly prey to prohecy and I think this is the best message the show could give us. He always had the freedom to choose and I think he chose well.
But I did like that they maintained the one over-arching theme about "prophecies" in Dr Who. The Doctor could have broken the prophecy and stayed as himself.
It could even be argued that he would not have crossed a moral/ethical line if he had let Wilf die because Wilf begged and pleaded for him to do that. Wilf was every bit as ready to sacrifice his life for the cause, and he knew very well how important the Doctor was and how much good he could still have done.
But that's not how the Doctor rolls. He'd rather die and regenerate a thousand times over or even suffer permanent death if it meant saving just one person.
But that's not how the Doctor rolls. He'd rather die and regenerate a thousand times over or even suffer permanent death if it meant saving just one person.
So in the end, the Doctor was not helplessly prey to prohecy and I think this is the best message the show could give us. He always had the freedom to choose and I think he chose well.
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Damn straight, Jim! Color me wonderfully surprised because that was absolutely SPECTACULAR!
Not one single eye rolling, corny moment (okay, maybe the bit with Rose, but I can deal with that) and every single moment with Wilf was utterly wonderful. Oh, how I wish he had been a full time companion. He could have been the greatest (well...almost...no beating Romana...or Leela...or the Brig).
I'm amused how Davies managed to swap my feeling about his two-part finales. Typically I love the first episode (especially in the case of "The Sound of Drums") but hated the conclusion (with the exception of "Journey's End"). This time around, I really don't like "The End of Time, Part One" (except anything with Wilf and the conversation between The Doctor and The Master in the wasteland) but I utterly love the conclusion.
I love how Davies managed to break the typical convention of choosing one or the other (The Master or The Lord President), but instead picks a third option, even if it is a little convenient. But better yet, because The Doctor chose to save The Master, The Master in turn chose to sacrifice himself for The Doctor's sake! I certainly didn't see that coming! I'm just sad because this probably not only means this really is the end of the Time Lords (I hope you're happy, Sci!) but this will also be the last time we'll see The Master.
One little thing I don't like about this episode is that it finally confirmed that The Master has indeed been hearing the sound of drums all of his life (whereas it was left a bit ambiguous in series 3 and some of us chose to believe it was something he had been hearing since the Time War). This means The Master we've seen all these years has been hearing the sound of drums but never said anything. Why does he say something now? Typical hand waving that he has reached the point of complete insanity because of the Time War and being in hiding? Not sure how I feel about that. I'm also not sure how I feel about The Master's entire existence driven simply because of one moment far into the future that affected his beginning.
That aside, lots of great moments. Favorite exchange has to be "God bless the cactuses!" "That's cacti." "That's racist!" Speaking of which, I absolutely adored Addams! Her little annoyances and face scrunches at The Doctor were so cute, even for a cactus, er, Vinvocci.
Did anyone think of The Two Doctors when Rossiter was pushing The Doctor around the mansion? And I wish at least one person had said/yelled when Gallifrey appeared in Earth's skies "NOT AGAIN!"
Although I love any excuse to see the Ood again, what was the point of them in this story? Part One implied the dreaming was happening throughout the universe. However we didn't see the effects nor was there any reason for them to be having the bad dreams because the dreaming was caused by The Master's use of the Immortality Gate. Perhaps I missed something? Oh, and what a complete waste of the voice talents of Brian Cox! I loved what little got of him but I wish he had a larger role.
While not confirmed, it was heavily implied that the mysterious woman visiting Wilf was The Doctor's mother. I don't know why I'm so against, but I think my bigger problem is what was the point? Okay, so the audience recognizes her from earlier scenes and thus isn't completely baffled as to why The Doctor is thrown off upon seeing her, but why was the point of her visiting Wilf all of those times? And how did she do that anyways while trapped in the time lock?
I thought the regeneration was dragged out just a tad bit, although I suppose there is some precedence considering The Third Doctor managed to get back from Metebelis III to Earth despite the radiation poisining (but it's not like he went around saying goodbye to everyone on his way back to The Brig and Sarah Jane). Still the end sequence was very touching and I was pleasantly surprised to see Mickey and Martha showing up! We had heard confirmation about all of the other companions returning but no word about those two because Clarke and Agyeman had been so busy. I guess they managed to squeeze them in after all but managed to keep it quiet...just like they managed to keep quiet all of the alien cameos! I loved the bar scene with the brooding Jack surrounded by all of the aliens (including the drunk Adipose!) but the most touching scene has to go to The Doctor's visit with Verity Newman. Beautiful!
Okay, one more slight annoyance. So The Tenth Doctor's regeneration tears up the TARDIS interior despite only absorbing radiation but The Ninth Doctor's regeneration caused by taking in the Heart of the TARDIS doesn't? Seems like a bit of stretch...
Overall, a brilliant, fantastic, spectacular episode! Like "The Sound of Drums," it's weaken a bit by its counterpart, so I would say "Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End" remains my favorite series finale. Now, if there was some way to simply connect "The Sound of Drums" with "The End of Time, Part Two" without needing the other two episodes...
Of course, I already love Matt Smith as The Eleventh Doctor and I can't wait for series 5. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see the first half or so of the series because I'll be on deployment. The wait will be unbearable.
Not one single eye rolling, corny moment (okay, maybe the bit with Rose, but I can deal with that) and every single moment with Wilf was utterly wonderful. Oh, how I wish he had been a full time companion. He could have been the greatest (well...almost...no beating Romana...or Leela...or the Brig).
I'm amused how Davies managed to swap my feeling about his two-part finales. Typically I love the first episode (especially in the case of "The Sound of Drums") but hated the conclusion (with the exception of "Journey's End"). This time around, I really don't like "The End of Time, Part One" (except anything with Wilf and the conversation between The Doctor and The Master in the wasteland) but I utterly love the conclusion.
I love how Davies managed to break the typical convention of choosing one or the other (The Master or The Lord President), but instead picks a third option, even if it is a little convenient. But better yet, because The Doctor chose to save The Master, The Master in turn chose to sacrifice himself for The Doctor's sake! I certainly didn't see that coming! I'm just sad because this probably not only means this really is the end of the Time Lords (I hope you're happy, Sci!) but this will also be the last time we'll see The Master.
One little thing I don't like about this episode is that it finally confirmed that The Master has indeed been hearing the sound of drums all of his life (whereas it was left a bit ambiguous in series 3 and some of us chose to believe it was something he had been hearing since the Time War). This means The Master we've seen all these years has been hearing the sound of drums but never said anything. Why does he say something now? Typical hand waving that he has reached the point of complete insanity because of the Time War and being in hiding? Not sure how I feel about that. I'm also not sure how I feel about The Master's entire existence driven simply because of one moment far into the future that affected his beginning.
That aside, lots of great moments. Favorite exchange has to be "God bless the cactuses!" "That's cacti." "That's racist!" Speaking of which, I absolutely adored Addams! Her little annoyances and face scrunches at The Doctor were so cute, even for a cactus, er, Vinvocci.
Did anyone think of The Two Doctors when Rossiter was pushing The Doctor around the mansion? And I wish at least one person had said/yelled when Gallifrey appeared in Earth's skies "NOT AGAIN!"
Although I love any excuse to see the Ood again, what was the point of them in this story? Part One implied the dreaming was happening throughout the universe. However we didn't see the effects nor was there any reason for them to be having the bad dreams because the dreaming was caused by The Master's use of the Immortality Gate. Perhaps I missed something? Oh, and what a complete waste of the voice talents of Brian Cox! I loved what little got of him but I wish he had a larger role.
While not confirmed, it was heavily implied that the mysterious woman visiting Wilf was The Doctor's mother. I don't know why I'm so against, but I think my bigger problem is what was the point? Okay, so the audience recognizes her from earlier scenes and thus isn't completely baffled as to why The Doctor is thrown off upon seeing her, but why was the point of her visiting Wilf all of those times? And how did she do that anyways while trapped in the time lock?
I thought the regeneration was dragged out just a tad bit, although I suppose there is some precedence considering The Third Doctor managed to get back from Metebelis III to Earth despite the radiation poisining (but it's not like he went around saying goodbye to everyone on his way back to The Brig and Sarah Jane). Still the end sequence was very touching and I was pleasantly surprised to see Mickey and Martha showing up! We had heard confirmation about all of the other companions returning but no word about those two because Clarke and Agyeman had been so busy. I guess they managed to squeeze them in after all but managed to keep it quiet...just like they managed to keep quiet all of the alien cameos! I loved the bar scene with the brooding Jack surrounded by all of the aliens (including the drunk Adipose!) but the most touching scene has to go to The Doctor's visit with Verity Newman. Beautiful!
Okay, one more slight annoyance. So The Tenth Doctor's regeneration tears up the TARDIS interior despite only absorbing radiation but The Ninth Doctor's regeneration caused by taking in the Heart of the TARDIS doesn't? Seems like a bit of stretch...
Overall, a brilliant, fantastic, spectacular episode! Like "The Sound of Drums," it's weaken a bit by its counterpart, so I would say "Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End" remains my favorite series finale. Now, if there was some way to simply connect "The Sound of Drums" with "The End of Time, Part Two" without needing the other two episodes...
Of course, I already love Matt Smith as The Eleventh Doctor and I can't wait for series 5. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see the first half or so of the series because I'll be on deployment. The wait will be unbearable.
Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.
It's explicitly stated that in the final day of the Time War, the Time Lords retroactively imprinted the drumming into the Master's head, as a way of achieving a link to the Master and anchoring themselves to something outside the time lock.
The implication I got is that the Master only thought he had been hearing the drums since he was a child.
Absolutely bloody loved every second. A triumphant, bombastic ball-buster of an exit, and what a poignant end to the RTD era. So excited about the future, Matt Smith was bloody brilliant in his post-regeneration trauma and looks to sustain it judging by the new series trailer.
I feel very strange to be in the "fuck the haters" crowd this time... but y'know what? Fuck 'em.*
* Directed at the already vocal "anti-Matt Smith" crowd, not those who didn't like the finale, which is fair enough.
Also directed at the idiots whinging about the Jack/Alonso scene for encouraging gayness. Dear christ, still?!
Addams rocks. Vinvocci also brilliant. More of them please!
is it me or is the female vinvocci sexier than the actress who played her out of the make up?
I believe that the Doctor thought he was literally going to die (some how be prohibited or prevented from regenerating). In the diner with Wilf in part 1 he mentions dying, how it could happen and then says something to the effect that even with regeneration it feels like dying.
If we assume that he thought this was his last regeneration ... and his existence was over, a lot makes sense that kind of has you scratching your head.
For instance, his taking so long to succumb ... all the good byes and last minute help he extended. He thought that he was not going to be around in any form.
Also, his taking off in the Tardis is seen as getting it out of the hands of lesser beings prior to his death.
It also explains his last statement, "I don't want to go."
Then, when he does regenerate, it explains his actions better because he was not expecting it to happen.
So, why did it happen? Perhaps the clue is the destructive forces we see in the Tardis. We know that the Tardis is at least semi-alive and telepathic. That it contains power within itself to trigger regeneration, etc. Perhaps the Tardis itself intervened and caused him to regenerate when all else was lost.
Of course, the Ood seemed to imply at first that he was going to die and be lost forever throughout, until the last appearance as the Doctor staggers toward the Tardis. Then he says the end is just the beginning, the story never ends. Perhaps the Doctor didn't quite "get it" but it does imply that the Doctor is now somehow free from the limitation factors of only so many regenerations. How could that be unless the Tardis itself is now supplying the power?!
Anyway, this is my first post. So be kind in your responses. But this is my analysis.
If we assume that he thought this was his last regeneration ... and his existence was over, a lot makes sense that kind of has you scratching your head.
For instance, his taking so long to succumb ... all the good byes and last minute help he extended. He thought that he was not going to be around in any form.
Also, his taking off in the Tardis is seen as getting it out of the hands of lesser beings prior to his death.
It also explains his last statement, "I don't want to go."
Then, when he does regenerate, it explains his actions better because he was not expecting it to happen.
So, why did it happen? Perhaps the clue is the destructive forces we see in the Tardis. We know that the Tardis is at least semi-alive and telepathic. That it contains power within itself to trigger regeneration, etc. Perhaps the Tardis itself intervened and caused him to regenerate when all else was lost.
Of course, the Ood seemed to imply at first that he was going to die and be lost forever throughout, until the last appearance as the Doctor staggers toward the Tardis. Then he says the end is just the beginning, the story never ends. Perhaps the Doctor didn't quite "get it" but it does imply that the Doctor is now somehow free from the limitation factors of only so many regenerations. How could that be unless the Tardis itself is now supplying the power?!
Anyway, this is my first post. So be kind in your responses. But this is my analysis.
I would not be surprised to see the Vinvocci appear in SJA, they are exactly the kind of aliens she deals with, plus they can spend half the episode in human form save all that cost make up, still if they are to return I would like to see that make up improve.
At the moment I am picturing an episode where Luke is trying to fix some alien tech, but something goes wrong changing the gang in some way, Mr Smith calls the Vinvocci, who send a salvage team who have to help fix the damage.
At the moment I am picturing an episode where Luke is trying to fix some alien tech, but something goes wrong changing the gang in some way, Mr Smith calls the Vinvocci, who send a salvage team who have to help fix the damage.
Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.
It is explicitly stated that the drumming was retroactively implanted in the Master as a child.
he also says
"You made me!"
to Rassilon, implying that he'd been nuts all along and all because of the drumming.
"You made me!"
to Rassilon, implying that he'd been nuts all along and all because of the drumming.
All I have to say now is that I swore I'd eat my hat if any number of inane fan theories came true.
I don't have to eat my hat.
Good job at predicting nothing, Internet!
I don't have to eat my hat.
Good job at predicting nothing, Internet!
I'm just sad because this probably not only means this really is the end of the Time Lords (I hope you're happy, Sci!) but this will also be the last time we'll see The Master.
Kidding on both counts, surely? Dalton and Simm are way too good not to bring back, but I imagine that we won't see them in 2010.I don't think that it's his mum or that we were intended to believe so. RTD probably hadn't actually decided anyway. As regards the time lock, I think that it's destined to expire or be broken, and the woman that Wilf sees is from after the time lock and basically using him to give history a nudge.
I'm too used to her from Being Human for that to be true. I suspect she's a sexier Vinvocci than she is a werewolf though, should that ever happen.
The likely explanation is that the damage to the TARDIS was caused with the fact that Ten didn't want to go. That, or maybe with every regeneration there is a means of controlling the damage, and the last two times we saw it (from Nine to Ten and the Master's), there had full control. With Ten not wanting to go, perhaps him holding on as long as he did lowered the usual controls, allowing for the damage to happen.
I know, a long shot, but it seems most likely. That, and I liked that the TARDIS was on fire on the outside heading back to Earth. Nice touch with the windows as well.
Loved this episode. Brilliant. Although I'm disappointed at the Time Lords being thrown back into the timelock, hearing what they had in mind, it was the right choice. Had they succeeded, everything would end. Period. But Dalton was awesome as the Lord President, although I was somewhat shocked at the revelation of his identity as Rassilon, who was supposed to be long dead - ironically now driven not to die, seeing that he was the one that knew immortality was a curse (thanks to one of the few episodes I've seen of Classic Who). Then again, they did resurrect The Master for the Time War. It would make sense to resurrect others if it meant the survival of the Time Lords.
If they ever return in a regular capacity, which is highly unlikely, perhaps they can say that Rassilon was overthrown - by The Master no less? Or that Rassillon regenerated into another that became less driven by not dying.
The "farewell tour of companions" was long and sappy, but that was the point! You had to tag all the ones you could. I had heard of Rose's cameo, and with Wilf in the mix, Donna was also included, Sarah Jane and Luke was implied on SJA, but it was good to see Martha and Mickey the Idiot one more time. As for Martha being married to Mickey - the other guy, Tom Milligan - perhaps the distance implied during the Sontaran two-parter was enough to break off that engagement? The bar scene with every Tom, Dick and Cepholopod you could think of was funny. That, and it was good to see Jack again bolting in TW: COE. Seeing that The Doctor had little time, it was fitting that he not persuade Jack to go back and rebuild TW (remember, The Doctor has been running away all his life as well), and pointed Jack to Alonzo. I agree that the most touching scene was Verity's. Even though he could have easily gone back to see Joan, this was better. The same actress, but it's a logical extension of that two-parter. When Verity looked up, she knew. And The Doctor was trying to say "Yes" and "I'm so sorry" one last time, if only to her as penance seeing what Joan said to The Doctor when he parted.
The regeneration was fitting. We didn't want to see Ten go either, but Eleven does show promise. That said, it was a fitting sendoff for Tennant and Davies. Like Ten said before pressing that button, it was his honor. No, sir - it was ours to have known your Doctor. To a "brilliant" actor and guardian of the role for four years, Thank you.
Allonz-y!
Absolutely bloody loved every second. A triumphant, bombastic ball-buster of an exit, and what a poignant end to the RTD era. So excited about the future, Matt Smith was bloody brilliant in his post-regeneration trauma and looks to sustain it judging by the new series trailer.
I feel very strange to be in the "fuck the haters" crowd this time... but y'know what? Fuck 'em.*
* Directed at the already vocal "anti-Matt Smith" crowd, not those who didn't like the finale, which is fair enough.
Also directed at the idiots whinging about the Jack/Alonso scene for encouraging gayness. Dear christ, still?!
Addams rocks. Vinvocci also brilliant. More of them please!
Really people were whinging about that? I found it a bit frivolous. "Hey Jack, sorry you killed your grand son here have a shag." but I'd have felt the same if it'd been a woman...didn't quite sit right really.
i cried a little at the verity scene. and then as Ten staggered into the TARDIS.
I liked it. I particularly liked the reward ending. So often in tv they don't do stuff like that, so I was so pleased to see them do it here. I've just watched Confidential and RTD says it was a thanks to the Doctor and to the fans. I really enjoyed seeing all the companions again. I don't know which was my favourite. Maybe Jack and Alonso. In Confidential RTD says that the Doctor is giving Jack some company and companionship after he has lost his friends and family and work. I can see how it might look a little shallow, though, a pick up in a bar. I thought they dealt with Donna quite cleverly. She was in the story and a part of it and yet, wasn't.
I liked what I saw of Matt Smith, I have so far.
I liked what I saw of Matt Smith, I have so far.
Yep, people are trying to get a movement against the gay agenda in it...
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...5409#paginator
Meanwhile, on the Times site:
Quote:
Peter Jones wrote:
What a pity Russell Davies had to write-in gay references and even the word racist was used. Sadly a poor last effort.
Quote:
ROBERT BOYD wrote:
The worst Dr Who I have ever seen,whats with the homosesual bit?,it was sordid.This is a childrens programme!It was Boring crass and just bad acting.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle6973532.ece
Unfuckingbelievable