The End Of Time Part 2 - Comment & Grading SPOILERS

[Darth_Daver]

Two things...

Rassilion. I'm no OldWho expert, but wasn't Rassilion a millenia old halfdead ex-tyrant who was buried in the dead zone? He founded the Time Lord society some millions of years ago?
Was Lord Dalton the same one?

Susan. Where do you guys get the vibe it was Susan "as a quiet nod to classic fans"?

 

[Sci]

Susan. Where do you guys get the vibe it was Susan "as a quiet nod to classic fans"?

At the wedding, Wilfred asks the Doctor who the female Time Lord who had communicated with him was. Rather than answer, the Doctor responds only by looking at Donna. To me, the strong implication seemed to be that that that woman was to the Doctor as Donna was to Wilfred -- his granddaughter.

I would theorize that that was Susan in her last regeneration -- that she, presumably, left 22nd Century Earth after her Human lover died and returned to Gallifrey, becoming part of the High Council by the time of the Time War.

This actually gives us quite a few interesting tidbits about the Time War. We know from "The Sound of Drums" that the Master abandoned the Time Lords when the Dalek Emperor led Dalek forces in capturing the Cruxiform, which I would speculate was a Time Lord landmark on Gallifrey itself. We know that the Doctor's actions led to the destruction of 10 million Dalek ships and his entire species from "Dalek" and "The Sound of Drums." We see in "The End of Time, Part Two" that the Time Lord Citadel itself was surrounded by downed Dalek ships and was burning. And we know from this episode that the Time Lord High Council was mostly following the Lord President's lead in formulating a plan to end the Time War by wiping out the whole of creation save the Time Lords themselves, which is what prompted the Doctor to destroy both the Daleks and Gallifrey.

Given all this, I would theorize that the Dalek forces had actually defeated the Time Lords in territories held outside their home system and era, and that they were actually in the process of invading Gallifrey itself (a task to which they seem to have dedicated all of their forces) when the Time Lords formulated their plan to bring about the end of time. I would speculate that Susan used her position on the Council to leak those plans to the Doctor, who then used "the moment" -- whatever that is -- to annihilate all of Gallifrey, including all of the Time Lords and the Daleks. Given the reference to the Daleks having "disappeared from time and space" in "The Parting of the Ways," I would presume that the moment and the time lock functioned to remove the Time Lords and the Daleks from history itself, with the more highly-evolved species being aware of history's alteration -- therefore preserving some knowledge of the Time Lords' existence, albeit rendering them as "legends" rather than a civilization only recently destroyed -- and the lesser species being unaware of the changes brought to history.

This would also nicely explain how the Doctor knew that his family was killed in the destruction of Gallifrey (as established in "The Doctor's Daughter").

 

[MikeS]

When he nodded towards Donna, I took it to mean that the woman was a future incarnation of the DoctorDonna. <shrug>

 

[chardman]

Spent the last half of part 2 alternately crying and giggling. Loved the "reward" scenes.

 

[Sci]

When he nodded towards Donna, I took it to mean that the woman was a future incarnation of the DoctorDonna. <shrug>

I don't see how that's possible. It's been very firmly established that if Donna ever remembers anything too Time Lord-y, her brain will fry. And "The End of Time, Part Two" establishes that the Doctor put something into her mind to make her fall asleep (and apparently release Time Lord energy as a defensive weapon) if she began to remember anything.

 

[jamestyler]

I was also damn disappointed that when the Doctor was lying face down in the booth that he didn't lift his head and was Matt Smith. That would have been perfect and understated. Instead we had the Doctor saying "Ulp, looks like I'm dying. Very slowly." and going for a stroll down near-literal memory lane.

I was wondering that when the moment happened, waiting to see Matt Smiths head pop up and cut to a little montage of all te bits and pieces we'd seen filmed (Verity, Jack etc)... seeing what Ten was up to between seeing the Ood on Earth and going to pay them a visit.

As if he wanted a little look around his old friends before heading towards his doom.

Though I was also wondering up to the point of regeneration how the TARDIS would be wrecked so there was a lot of anticipation/waiting from me.

I will say that the handling of Susan was one of the classiest, most subtle and most restrained things this show has ever done. I thought that was wonderful.

The best part being it's so ambiguous it could be anyone, but being an older fan I made the Susan link - and spent a minute or two explaining the possibilities (Susan, Romana..) to my GF. Which was a bit of geeky fun giving her a little Whostory lesson.

Rassilion. I'm no OldWho expert, but wasn't Rassilion a millenia old halfdead ex-tyrant who was buried in the dead zone? He founded the Time Lord society some millions of years ago?
Was Lord Dalton the same one?

The Rassilon thing seemed a bit like the Eye of Harmony in the McGann movie... thrown in there for a bit of old school refrencing, but the ressurection theory posted in this thread fits.

Overall, I thought it was a fun ride. It had it's flaws but they were covered by the pace and the moments such as the Master/Doctor moment before the Time Lords were thrown back into the time lock. I loved Ten joyous that he was alive, as if he'd broken the curse, only to hear Wilf knocking. Which was a wonderful twist...

The rant at the end didn't seem out of character for me. It makes sense to e that any incarnation would want to hold on for as long as he can. I remember Troughten going kicking and screaming against his 'forced change of appearance' and with his fear of dying, it fit to see him ranting against death only to do the right thing.

The death march to the TARDIS at the end and his 'I don't want to go...' line was perfectly done, it really blurred the line between character and actor and then he was gone.

Smiths few moments on screen was fun to see. For several reasons.

One being that, the 1996 movie aside, I've never seen a regeneration of the Doctor as it aired. My GF - who's not a fan but reluctantly enjoys parts, and loves Tennant - laughed at mocking his own apperance and I got to see her son witness his first regeneration. Which... was quite fun in itself.

Overall... some parts of the story were weak, the second part well outshined the first but it hit all the right character moments with the big three cast members, had a nice (if drawn out) goodbye to the RTD era that was much less ridiculous and much better done than the end of the last series andmost importantly... it was fun.

 

[Cutter John]

Okay, I'm gonna break down and give it a 10/10, despite a few niggling nitpicks. Its taken me a few hours to get into any shape to write though. Going from sadness to joy within the space of 5 seconds at the end really messes with your head.

I gotta say, that felt EPIC! Yes, the last ten minutes were a bit contrived and silly. But I still loved it so. It was even nice seeing Rose again. (Blimey, I never thought I'd hear myself say that...)

What was up with the Master playing ordering his copies around like common minions? Obviously the others were imperfect reproductions. The real Master would have told himself to get stuffed.


I'm sooo happy that the innocent bystander aliens didn't get killed off as usual.
I actually thought they were great fun. Hell, I love them just for the 'worst rescue ever!' scene. And god, if that wasn't the dumpiest spaceship ever. I confess I wouldn't mind seeing them again.

WTF? The Doctor jumped from a speeding spaceship, through a glass dome, and onto a marble floor?! At least he got banged up pretty well, but c'mon!

So the Timelords resurrected Rassilon out of desperation? Wow, that was their first big mistake right there. No surprise that he'd be godlike, and a bit mad. I guess the rumors mention in The Five Doctors were true.

A bit puzzled by the diamond though. How did the Master recognize it? Its not like diamonds come out of the ground pre-cut. And I have to say, that was the most rubbish impact crater I've ever seen.

Way to go Mickey!

Smith's "Oh god, I'm a woman!' line was epic. Nice dig at the 'will there be a female Doctor?' element of fandom.

"Still not ginger!" LOL!

The shot of the burning Tardis flying through space reminded so much like the Enterprise in STIII.

One things for sure. RTD's given us plenty to argue about and discuss between now and the spring.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Looks like Tennant bowed out to an audience of 10.4m viewers.

From Digital Spy

David Tennant's final Doctor Who episode was seen by 10.4m on BBC One last night, according to early figures.


In 'The End Of Time, Part Two', Tennant's Doctor regenerated into a new incarnation, played by Matt Smith, after stating his final line: "I don't want to go."


The audience peaked with 10.85m (36%) for the regeneration moment at 7.45pm.
The first half of Tennant's last story averaged 10.03m (42.2%) on Christmas Day.

 

[Starkers]

Brilliant, heartbreaking, action packed, funny...I'll even forgive RTD and DT a slight Return of the King ending that went on and on because it was so beautifully played. Does anyone else think in years to come Tennant will be remembered as the whiny Doctor?

"I don't want to go!"

Martha and Mickey married was the only WTF moment for me!

Told ya Wilf would be the one to kill the Doctor although I didn;t see that he was the one who'd knock four times!

Anyway, lovely end of an era...and I have only one thing more to say..

"Geronimo!"

 

[Starkers]

Brilliant. Loved it. Loved the smaltz at the end. Loved seeing Rose one last time.

And most of all? Honestly?

I'm glad the RTD era is over. Not because I don't enjoy RTD's writing -- but because four years of fanboys whining about it is more than enough for me. Let them whine about how Moffat's ruining the franchise for a while.

See the difficulty is Sci, that often you've taken well reasoned critisisim of RTD as fanboy whining, literally any time anyone slagged RTD off. That's not to say there wasn't fanboy whining but not every critic can be accused of it.

It's been a heck of a ride though, and at times I've loved RTD, at times the reverse, but in the end I think we have to thank him for the wonderful five years he's given us...now bring on Moffat!

 

[Lonemagpie]

The woman in white.

Half of GB seems to think it's his mum, rather than Susan (partly led on by Julie Gardner winding them up in the commentary)

Thing is, dramatically, in terms of the strctures RTD likes to use for these stories (including this one) his mother doesn't fit.

RTD likes to mirror characters and situations - e.g the Daleks have a crazed prophet and so do the Timeys. The Doctor's companions are mirrored with Davros' Daleks in Journey's End. You get the idea.

If this had been, say, the end of season 2, then the Doctor's mum would make sense - it'd fit with mirroring Rose getting a dad back. But in this, the Doctor's not being played against a parent - unless you count Naismith wanting his daughter to live forever, but then he's more bouncing off the Master's desire for immortality, and Wilf wanting Donna fixed.

Also, the Doctor's mum would not just undercut the show as a whole (the clue's in the name, right - Who) but immediately require a whole bunch of explanations. The only thing going for it is that the not-we might like the domestics.

Fannish-wise, FWIW, his mother would be human, and not a Timey. Plus it's implied that the rest of his family is dead as far back as the Troughton era, well before the Time War. Oh, and all the mums RTD has written in DW have been bloody annoying idioitic harridans, which this one wasn't - there's conclusive evidence for you!

So who's most likely? Well, she has to be a Time Lord who cares about the Doctor, so that rules out Rose, Donna, The White Guardian (not Timeys), the Rani (wouldn't care), etc... In descending order of likelihood, the remaining suspects are:

1) Susan - Lost on Earth, psychic enough to contact a human, married one, there's the signifcant look at Wilfs' granddaughter when asked who she is - i.e. "the Granddaughter".... There's enough evidence upthread.

2) The Doctor's Wife (i.e. Susan's gran)- Could be a mirroring with Lucy's "faithful wife" thing as we were reminded in Part 1, except the Doctor's wife sets out to save him, not get rid of him. This would fit with the dramatic structure, and tease the fans (remember JNT's old jape? Then there's Patience/Larna) Also could fit with the look at Donna, as she's a bride at that moment.

3) Romana- Again, a Timey with a great fondness for the Doctor, and who's pretty much smarter than him. Often wore white too. Was President before Dalton

4) Somebody else. The Inquisitor perhaps- if only because she wore white, and might feel she owes him. But more likely it has to be family - a sister, perhaps, to fit in with all the other Star Wars knockoffs in the episode...

 

[MikeS]

Could it be the girl from the Doctor's Daughter. That episode seemed to get forgotten quite quickly.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I thought at first that the woman in white was Romana deposed by Rassilon and working against the corrupt Time Lords in secret. No one though has speculated who the Time Lord on the left with his hands covering his face was...I know the speculation was that it was Matt Smith...it's still curious. I forgot to mention that I loved the Venococci or whatever they're called, particularly the woman she was funny.

I don't think it was an older version of Jenny...Jenny regenerated into herself instead of another incarnation remember.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Wouldn't be an older Jenny- whoever it was was locked in on Time War Gallifrey.

The other double-facepalm was the other person who voted "no" to "Gallifrey Rises" - there's a line that there were only two naysayers, and we know Clare Bloom was one. Presumably the double-facepalm thing was some sort of ritual humiliation, like standing in the corner with a dunce's cap on...

 

[Australis]

Yeah, humiliation was the vibe I go too.

For some reason I didn't think of Romana, and it might make sense if Rassilon was resurrected to replace her. But as with others here, I'm inclined towards Susan.

 

[Rosalind]

Well, it was... entertaining... Wouldn't give it a 10/10, but wouldn't call it shit either. I am so very glad that it was a total reset that I'll probably give it an 8/10, besides Tennant/Cribbins/Simms were brilliant in their scenes.

The goodbye scenes were mostly great, except, Martha and Mickey? RTD could easily not include that bit there, what happened to Tom? The alien bar scene was perfect though, it puts all the aliens we've seen in the last five years together in one room, and it shows what Jack's up to after COE. Maybe this allows Jack to finally find himself and go back to Earth? Verity Newman, brilliant, that scene brought a tear to my eyes.

and Rasillon? ok, it sort of makes sense, I'm glad it's not Romana who was the President then, I still see her as one good thing about the Time Lord high council. Besides, I'm sure it allows the team a little giggle at the "glove of Rassilon" joke.

btw, did anyone thought the time lady killed by Dalton at the beginning is Councillor Flavia?

Star Trek rip-offs: Wrath of Khan death for the Doctor.

I was muttering "I have been and always shall be... your friend" as Tennant ran his hand down the glass pane in his death throes.

As for Claire Bloom - at first I thought she was the White Guardian. Now I think that the Doctor's wife or mother is more likely. I would prefer it if she were Romana or Susan but I don't think they seem to want to go delving into any more past assistants. I've always felt that Susan's story remains very up in the air.

nah, it's more likely to be Romana or Susan, because she said to Wilf "I was lost, so very long time ago." If she's the Doctor's wife or mother, then there's no need for this line. This line was there to give all the classic fans a clue as to who she is. Both Romana (E-space) and Susan (22nd century Earth) fit this line.

From the wedding scene, though, I say this is Susan. Maybe because I'm still hoping Romana will come back, one day.

I do hope, now that we've seen the Time Lords as the colossal douchebags they've always been, that we get to have a Doctor that doesn't suffer any survivor's guilt / species angst.

Indeed. The old "last of the time lords" angst has gotten very old. And Ten did say himself, that he chose to remember the good bits about the time lords.

The regeneration scene I thought was done nicely...

I was disappointed with the regeneration though, specifically, the effects of regeneration. I was hoping for a different effect, because every regeneration has been different since Hartnell.

Finally The Time Lords being thrust back into the Time War and locked...disapointed...I thought it would be really cool to have them back, even in a limited capicity.

I was hoping the time lords would be back too, it's interesting having them around from time to time. but it's no big deal.

 

[Tomalak]

Absolute tripe.

Spoiler: .

I loved every second.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I'm taping End of Time tonight on Space...I should add that I did like his meeting with Verity Newman, and the cover to Journal of Impossible Things was awesome. BBC Books should get Justin Richards or Gary Russel on this as a history of all Ten Doctors (yes I know Gary Russell has a chronology out). The book prop made me drool...lol.

 

[Skellington]

When he nodded towards Donna, I took it to mean that the woman was a future incarnation of the DoctorDonna. <shrug>

I don't see how that's possible. It's been very firmly established that if Donna ever remembers anything too Time Lord-y, her brain will fry. And "The End of Time, Part Two" establishes that the Doctor put something into her mind to make her fall asleep (and apparently release Time Lord energy as a defensive weapon) if she began to remember anything.

Plus, Donna's human. If humans could regenerate, I'd have done so already.
She's clearly someone important in Time Lord society, so Susan seems most likely. (Susan did once claim to have coined the word TARDIS , after all.)
It seems to me that the woman seen by Wilf is a future version of the one with the Time Lords; she appears to have had foreknowledge of the moment when the Doctor is caught between Rassilon and The Master. She also states that this is the Doctor's final adventure, which it isn't. Maybe she comes from a future timeline where the Doctor wins but dies at that moment, and she cares enough about him to tweak the past in his favour.
(Alternatively, maybe she's good pals with the Visionary.)

Just checked out Claire Bloom on the web. She's much older than I thought. It would be very interesting if she played Susan opposite Matt Smith, on whom she has more than 50 years.

 

[Fenric]

Two things...

Rassilion. I'm no OldWho expert, but wasn't Rassilion a millenia old halfdead ex-tyrant who was buried in the dead zone? He founded the Time Lord society some millions of years ago?
Was Lord Dalton the same one?

Susan. Where do you guys get the vibe it was Susan "as a quiet nod to classic fans"?

yes Rassilion was the main founder of time lord society and was also the person who invented time travel and all the other things that the time lords use, It wasn't made clear if Dalton was the same one but I wouldn't bet against it being the same one. probably the timelords in the time war brought him to help them.

also it is nice to see 20 years later doctor who finally beat corination street,