The End Of Time Part 2 - Comment & Grading SPOILERS

[Count Zero]

Oh yeah the list from Hell. I think the Doctor was referring to the Nightmare Child (which is something or someone that we never see) and his (!) army of never-weres. There was also a lot of other stuff mentioned that seems to make the Daleks a pathetic also ran in the terror stakes.

I especially liked the hordes of travesty. Timelords have all those fancy names for places and villains.

 

[Timby]

One little thing I don't like about this episode is that it finally confirmed that The Master has indeed been hearing the sound of drums all of his life (whereas it was left a bit ambiguous in series 3 and some of us chose to believe it was something he had been hearing since the Time War). This means The Master we've seen all these years has been hearing the sound of drums but never said anything. Why does he say something now?

Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.

It's explicitly stated that in the final day of the Time War, the Time Lords retroactively imprinted the drumming into the Master's head, as a way of achieving a link to the Master and anchoring themselves to something outside the time lock.

The implication I got is that the Master only thought he had been hearing the drums since he was a child.

Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.

It is explicitly stated that the drumming was retroactively implanted in the Master as a child.

Could well be that I didn't pay attention well enough. The way I understood it, the retroactive implantation meant that the Master thought he had heard the drumming since he had been a child, but it really only existed in his current incarnation, which was the Time Lords' way of extracting themselves from the time lock to modern-day Earth.

None of it really makes sense, and either interpretation is valid. I just think that between the Time Lords resurrecting the Master during the Time War (as said in "The Sound of Drums") and the drumming sounds hitting Simm's Master and only that Master), it works better in my mind that the Time Lords saw the current-day Earth, retroactively implanted the drumming into the Master's mind so as to drive him mad and then hurled down the diamond so as to embrace the current Master's insanity.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.

It's explicitly stated that in the final day of the Time War, the Time Lords retroactively imprinted the drumming into the Master's head, as a way of achieving a link to the Master and anchoring themselves to something outside the time lock.

The implication I got is that the Master only thought he had been hearing the drums since he was a child.

Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.

It is explicitly stated that the drumming was retroactively implanted in the Master as a child.

Could well be that I didn't pay attention well enough. The way I understood it, the retroactive implantation meant that the Master thought he had heard the drumming since he had been a child, but it really only existed in his current incarnation, which was the Time Lords' way of extracting themselves from the time lock to modern-day Earth.

None of it really makes sense, and either interpretation is valid. I just think that between the Time Lords resurrecting the Master during the Time War (as said in "The Sound of Drums") and the drumming sounds hitting Simm's Master and only that Master), it works better in my mind that the Time Lords saw the current-day Earth, retroactively implanted the drumming into the Master's mind so as to drive him mad and then hurled down the diamond so as to embrace the current Master's insanity.

That doesn't really work, because Professor Yana heard it too.

 

[USS KG5]

Someone didn't pay attention to the episode.

It is explicitly stated that the drumming was retroactively implanted in the Master as a child.

Could well be that I didn't pay attention well enough. The way I understood it, the retroactive implantation meant that the Master thought he had heard the drumming since he had been a child, but it really only existed in his current incarnation, which was the Time Lords' way of extracting themselves from the time lock to modern-day Earth.

None of it really makes sense, and either interpretation is valid. I just think that between the Time Lords resurrecting the Master during the Time War (as said in "The Sound of Drums") and the drumming sounds hitting Simm's Master and only that Master), it works better in my mind that the Time Lords saw the current-day Earth, retroactively implanted the drumming into the Master's mind so as to drive him mad and then hurled down the diamond so as to embrace the current Master's insanity.

That doesn't really work, because Professor Yana heard it too.

I thought it was really rather simple, the Time Lords knew only two Time Lords would escape, the Doctor and the Master. Knowing the Doctor was responsible for their imprisonment and therefore unlikely to help they implanted the drum sound through the time vortex when the Master was shown it on Gallifrey.

It is a paradox of sorts.

 

[captcalhoun]

it's a predestination paradox and a causal loop.

it was the Nightmare Child (previously mentioned in 'The Stolen Earth') and the King of Never-Was, i think.

TARDIS wiki mentions Skaro degradations and Hordes of Travesty

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Could well be that I didn't pay attention well enough. The way I understood it, the retroactive implantation meant that the Master thought he had heard the drumming since he had been a child, but it really only existed in his current incarnation, which was the Time Lords' way of extracting themselves from the time lock to modern-day Earth.

None of it really makes sense, and either interpretation is valid. I just think that between the Time Lords resurrecting the Master during the Time War (as said in "The Sound of Drums") and the drumming sounds hitting Simm's Master and only that Master), it works better in my mind that the Time Lords saw the current-day Earth, retroactively implanted the drumming into the Master's mind so as to drive him mad and then hurled down the diamond so as to embrace the current Master's insanity.

That doesn't really work, because Professor Yana heard it too.

I thought it was really rather simple, the Time Lords knew only two Time Lords would escape, the Doctor and the Master. Knowing the Doctor was responsible for their imprisonment and therefore unlikely to help they implanted the drum sound through the time vortex when the Master was shown it on Gallifrey.

It is a paradox of sorts.

That's the way I saw it too, they used the schism to implant the signal in The Master when he was shown it as a child, so he has always heard the sound, and it's been getting more prominent as he gets closer in the "causal nexus" to the time it was sent...

 

[Bob The Skutter]

it's a predestination paradox and a causal loop.

it was the Nightmare Child (previously mentioned IIRC in 'The Stolen Earth') and the King of Never-Was, i think.

These names are reminding me of names of things in The Nightside novels.

 

[EJA]

One question: How was the Woman (I'm going to assume she was Susan) able to appear to Wilf when she and the rest of the Time Lords were still locked inside the Time War?

 

[Bacl]

One question: How was the Woman (I'm going to assume she was Susan) able to appear to Wilf when she and the rest of the Time Lords were still locked inside the Time War?

Wilf is really a Timelord who used a chameleon arch to turn himself human, Susan is Wilf's daughter, and The Doctor is Wilf's father. Susan was able to appear to him telepathically both because they are family, and because the Time Lock was about to be broken. This also explains Wilf being the only human who could remember the dreams, as well as how he was able to track the Doctor down so easily.

I'm just kidding, of course.

The real answer is that the woman is The Doctor's mother, and Wilf is The Doctor's father...

 

[Captaindemotion]

I just keep thinking about 10b with all the Doctor's memories living in a parallel dimension - a bit of pseudo-science and the walls between worlds can come down again and out pops Rose and 10b; this probably won't happen of course, but it allows for an easy two doctors story in the future without having to worry about walking all over the Doctor's personal timestreams etc. so 10 hasn't actually gone...from a certain point of view.

I have a friend who is convinced that the 10b thing is being kept in reserve in case Smith doesn't work out and then they can bring back Tennant.

I keep pointing out that the show is bigger than any one actor and that (a) if Smith doesn't work out, they'll bring in a brand new guy (b) Tennant has moved on and won't be returning to the role full time (c) a Doctor can't regenerate into a past self (though that could be broken for a 14th regeneration, I suppose) and (d) 10b isn't a proper Doctor anyway. No talking to the silly f*cker, though.

But yeah, a Two Doctor (or Doctor and a Half) team up could be good and it allows DT to return without committing to a full series.

 

[USS KG5]

One question: How was the Woman (I'm going to assume she was Susan) able to appear to Wilf when she and the rest of the Time Lords were still locked inside the Time War?

I very much doubt this will be left open.

Think how dark the whole concept of the timelords in EOT was, the darkness and desperation of what they were planning, the truly scary route of exploring it further....

Moffatt's first finale maybe?? We will see something very different to RTD's ones I am sure.

 

[AJBryant]

On Rassilon -- if they did bring him back, it is clear they must have used the same technique that Dawn used in trying to bring Joyce back after she died, and as mentioned to Dawn and Spike as a possibility by the Joel Grey demon, he "came back wrong."

I'm adding my vote to "It was Susan" by the way.

 

[KevasTrader]

Afraid I haven't read all of the posts but has anyone mentioned the similarity in planting the pattern/drumbeat of four to ST:TNG's 'Cause and Effect'?

 

[USS KG5]

Afraid I haven't read all of the posts but has anyone mentioned the similarity in planting the pattern/drumbeat of four to ST:TNG's 'Cause and Effect'?

That was three not four - but I think it dates back a lot earlier than that as a dramatic device.

 

[Bacl]

Afraid I haven't read all of the posts but has anyone mentioned the similarity in planting the pattern/drumbeat of four to ST:TNG's 'Cause and Effect'?

Hmmm...

The Doctor destroyed Galifrey along with all the horrors of the Time War, daleks included. The Time Lords learned he was going to do this, but could not prevent it because the Time War was "Time Locked." They needed an escape hole: As the Doctor said, "Think of a bubble." They poked a hole in the bubble. They went back in time to when the Master was a child, and put a little beacon in his head. They were able to find the beacon AFTER the Time War. Knowing where they could go AFTER the Time War, they escaped at that moment when the Master found the diamond.

 

[BenRoethig]

Really people were whinging about that? I found it a bit frivolous. "Hey Jack, sorry you killed your grand son here have a shag." but I'd have felt the same if it'd been a woman...didn't quite sit right really.

Yep, people are trying to get a movement against the gay agenda in it...
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...5409#paginator

Meanwhile, on the Times site:

Quote:
Peter Jones wrote:
What a pity Russell Davies had to write-in gay references and even the word racist was used. Sadly a poor last effort.

Quote:
ROBERT BOYD wrote:
The worst Dr Who I have ever seen,whats with the homosesual bit?,it was sordid.This is a childrens programme!It was Boring crass and just bad acting.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle6973532.ece

Unfuckingbelievable

Look, RTD can do overboard by well, a lot with his agenda to the point where just about every male character on TW is either bi, gay, or was turned by Jack. On the other hand he does make very compelling stories and on DW its been very subtle and respectful of the viewership.

When he nodded towards Donna, I took it to mean that the woman was a future incarnation of the DoctorDonna. <shrug>

I took at it a moment between proud grandfathers.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I just keep thinking about 10b with all the Doctor's memories living in a parallel dimension - a bit of pseudo-science and the walls between worlds can come down again and out pops Rose and 10b; this probably won't happen of course, but it allows for an easy two doctors story in the future without having to worry about walking all over the Doctor's personal timestreams etc. so 10 hasn't actually gone...from a certain point of view.

Oh, I like that.

It also opens up the possibility of a DW theatrical movie with Tennant and Piper.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

If they were going to do a Doctor Who movie with Tennant, I'd prefer they just do one that takes place before this finale. I'm certainly not against potential appearances from 10b in a movie or the new series at some point, but I'd rather they explore the idea of him being a different character. Hell, if it didn't mean ruining Rose's ending, it'd be interesting to have him pop up sometime as a villain.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

True, the best period for a movie would probably be Season Two.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I also like some of the open-endedness for stories which take place before The End of Time, Part 1. I'm not too into media tie-in books, but that's some fertile ground, there.

A movie would shoulder the responsibility of introducing a wider audience to Doctor Who, which makes me think they'd either come up with a companion exclusive to the film, possibly working previous companions later into the story.