The Down Under Lounge
- Thread starter TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME
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One would have to boycott Japan as well as they still have the death penalty.
I understand why there isn't a boycott for Japan. For starters they don't have a reputation for having a corrupt and unreasonable justice system. They may, but it certainly isn't commonly known as such. The US does. It's justice system is a joke and everyone knows it.
More than that Japan isn't a large tourist destination for Australians. The US is. I don't know up to date numbers but the last article I read stated that the US is third behind Indonesia and NZ as a destination. The numbers are actually quite similar although I dare say they'll drop off with the US dollar strengthening.
They're a western nation though and they've not executing Australians so no one cares.
More than that Japan isn't a large tourist destination for Australians. The US is. I don't know up to date numbers but the last article I read stated that the US is third behind Indonesia and NZ as a destination. The numbers are actually quite similar although I dare say they'll drop off with the US dollar strengthening.
They're a western nation though and they've not executing Australians so no one cares.
Fine, stay away from my country. Drugs smugglers and their friends are not welcome.
Fine, Australians can stay away and can also stop giving your country billions of dollars in aid.
I think what many Australians have trouble understanding is why these men were executed while Muhammed Cholili, a man who helped make bombs that killed 20 people, was released after only serving a few years. Why so hard on drug smugglers and yet so lenient on a terrorist?
I think what many Australians have trouble understanding is why these men were executed while Muhammed Cholili, a man who helped make bombs that killed 20 people, was released after only serving a few years. Why so hard on drug smugglers and yet so lenient on a terrorist?
The size of Australian aid is peanuts compared to the Indonesian annual budget. Australian aid isnt given in cash, but is invested through Australian NGO's. In other words, stop thinking that Australia is hugely important to Indonesia, it's not. The biggest donor to Indonesia is and has always been Japan anyway.
And about the Bali bombers, the ringleaders were either executed, or killed by Indonesian police in anti terror operations. Dozens of terrorists have been killed in the last decade. Most of the masterminds are dead by now. And contrary to popular belief, there has never been direct proof that Abu Bakar Baashir was directly involved in this.
No not all of the people in that terrorist organisation have been executed, but neither have all of the Bali nine been sentenced to death. Some of the Bali nine have had their death sentence change to life sentence, other like Renae Lawrence only got 20 years, and will probably get out sooner with good behaviour, just like Schapelle Corby.
I think a lot of Australians need to check up on some facts first.
I never mention Bashir, I only mentioned Cholili. He helped make bombs that killed 20 people knowing that they would kill. He is as bad as any drug dealing ringleader. He should have be given a life sentence as the Bali ringleaders.
I also never mention the other members of the Bali Nine. I have no real problem with their sentences as they haven't been given the death penalty, and it is the death penalty I oppose. And I condemn any time it is opposed, for any reason, in any country. I oppose it even for terrorists and mass murderers.
And if our aid is of so little importance to Indonesia than it should be stopped. We should give it to Papua New Guinea and the Pacific island nations where it would actually do some good. Or to our Aboriginal communities who certainly could use it. Or to genuinely poor countries like Nepal.
I also never mention the other members of the Bali Nine. I have no real problem with their sentences as they haven't been given the death penalty, and it is the death penalty I oppose. And I condemn any time it is opposed, for any reason, in any country. I oppose it even for terrorists and mass murderers.
And if our aid is of so little importance to Indonesia than it should be stopped. We should give it to Papua New Guinea and the Pacific island nations where it would actually do some good. Or to our Aboriginal communities who certainly could use it. Or to genuinely poor countries like Nepal.
I assume the aid buys some kind of mutual good will/political points and that is the true purpose of it. Not actually aiding anyone.
Yes, you are most certainly right. I would rather see aid go to the genuine needy otherwise it isn't really aid and should be given another name.
The giving and withdrawing of aid is political gamemanship, which is also what calling for its withdrawal from Indonesia would serve. Something might get withdrawn, to make a point, and then quietly get added back under some other agreement and no one hears about it or cares.
Are you, sir/madam implying that I am involved in drug smuggling, and or associate with such people?
How about instead of throwing out slanderous imputations against me, you address the points raised in here.
The actions of the Indonesian government have deeply distressed Australians. Nobody disputes Indonesia's right to sovereignty -- including, regrettably state sanctioned exectution of drug carriers -- but the manner in which it has been carried out has been designed, in many Australians' eyes, to cause maximum pain for the families of the dead. It was nothing short of disgraceful, you must concede this, surely?
It is also deeply disturbing that in Indonesia, the law does not rule above all. This will make any person who values their freedom think twice about travelling there.
There are a number of Australians with death sentences around the world, but for some reason our media decided to build up this particular case. In response to this (and probably to distract from his unpopularity), Tony Abbott tried to shirtfront the Indonesians, leading to yet another diplomatic embarrassment, as Indonesia have had enough of our interference in their domestic affairs. No self-respecting foreign leader wants to be seen caving in to this oaf.
The dragging out of the process with endless appeals that were obviously doomed to failure was cruel and self-serving on the part of the lawyers and the Australian government.
Now our ambassador has been withdrawn, which is both hypocritical considering the many death penalty countries we haven't boycotted, and self-defeating. As Bob Carr pointed out, who is going to advocate for other Australians in Indonesia if the ambassador isn't there?
The dragging out of the process with endless appeals that were obviously doomed to failure was cruel and self-serving on the part of the lawyers and the Australian government.
Now our ambassador has been withdrawn, which is both hypocritical considering the many death penalty countries we haven't boycotted, and self-defeating. As Bob Carr pointed out, who is going to advocate for other Australians in Indonesia if the ambassador isn't there?
My decision with this still remains the same. I posted in the lounge, about how I feel about this. Lately reading more about it, and trying to ignore a lot of the drama that has been associated with it. From what I've read the Indonesian president has strong view on executing these drug traffickers. More are planned.
But I have the view we have zero right to tell another country on what they can do. As next week, another Australian will be killed for drug trafficking in China. Do we same with him? Back to Indonesia - another 34 foreigners will killed this year. Indonesia isn't addressing the real problem here - the people who are making the drugs.
But I have the view we have zero right to tell another country on what they can do. As next week, another Australian will be killed for drug trafficking in China. Do we same with him? Back to Indonesia - another 34 foreigners will killed this year. Indonesia isn't addressing the real problem here - the people who are making the drugs.
I think other countries do have a right to question what a country does. I I think it is quite alright for other nations to take Australia to task for our treatment of refugees and Aboriginals and even for our failure to legalise gay marriage.
It's normal to protest shit going on in other countries. It's part of a loud international dialogue. It's not telling people what to do, for that you need drone strikes.
First of all, all you said is irrelevant. Because Indonesia isn't some Australian province. And your points:
The bribery allegations are completely and utterly unproven. If you do insist on the rule of law, bring the proof. And what suddenly makes you an expert on Indonesian law? They have exhausted al their legal appeals, it was just the end of it.
And why send tanks and riot police to transport them to Nusakembangan island? To prevent the chaos and media frenzy that happened when Schapelle Corby was released on parole.
They were never denied spiritual guidance, in the end they got the spiritual guidance they asked for. In fact, the Indonesian prison guards went out of their way of giving them more family time, and the opportunity to spend their last moments together with the other convicts. Something other deathrow convicts never had.
The families that day chose themselves to walk to the port. All they needed to do is take the car but they didn't. The media that mobbed them weren't sent by the Indonesian government, they were lured there by the media frenzy Australians like you, and the idiotic tsunami comments by Abbott, helped to create. If you see the images, you see plenty of white journalists taking pictures as well. Maybe riot police wasnt such a bad idea huh?
And Anzac day? You mean the day where you all celebrate state sanctioned mass killings? It means nothing in Indonesia. Nor should it. The policemen in the firing squads, the doctors, the prosecutors, etc can't all be held up because of some foreign holiday.
And ofcourse, if those two Australian drugdealers wanted to live, they should have done a simple thing: GET PROPER JOBS.
Australia is one of the richest countries on earth. Andrew and Myuran could have had a great life in Australia. But they chose to break the law, to potentially kill Australians with their drugs, and to destroy the lives of the rest of the Bali nine. In the end, it's karma that killed them.
Dont smuggle drugs and you live, its quite simple really.
What you haven't address is why someone like Cholili who seems to be unrepentant for helping to kill 20 people received such a light sentence and was released after serving half that sentence. Why is making bombs a lesser crime than smuggling drugs? Both end up with people dying.
Well the ambassador was just recalled over these events, an unprecedented step, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.
Who ever said it was?
Muhammad Rifan's (ex Bali 9 lawyer) allegations of corruption against the sentencing judges and of government interference in the judicial process were not tested in an open court. The court is the avenue to "bring the proof".
A discreet transfer was beyond the wit of the police? Rubbish. It was pure public spectacle to play to the ultra-nationalists, and quite sickening.
In the end as you say. But they were told initially they would be the only prisoners denied their choice of comforter. Why do this other than to cause them more pain and further rile your Australian friends?
You aren't serious are you? They were forced out of their car 100m from the gate. The result was a sickening, disgraceful spectacle of cold inhumanity. One that really got noticed here. If that was the intent, it worked.
It was requested at the highest level that the announcement not be made on the 100th anniversary of a profoundly important day for Australians. It was the request of a friend to a friend. Ignoring it was very pointed.
Wow. Speechless.
Or pay the right people and you live? Or be politically popular? c.f Mary Jane Veloso.
Look, you and I are never going to agree on this. Let's leave it there. I find your attitude and lack of compassion hard to reconcile with the people I have met travelling in Indonesia and working with Indonesians here. Its also disturbing that a strong friendship between two countries is at such a low ebb. It will endure no doubt, but don't expect too many Australians to mourn when Widodo is consigned to the political dustbin.
This shows how little you understand ANZAC Day. If ANZAC Day was to celebrate mass Killings than we wouldn't have chosen to honor Australia's greatest defeat. If it was a celebration of killing Turks the Turkish people wouldn't respect the day it as highly as they do.
ANZAC Day is about the futility of war and the terrible consequences of it. It is also about how bonds can be forged with a former enemy ,a point not missed on Ataturk when he said that Australia's dead soldiers were now Turkish sons.
Those words appear on the inscription on the Kemal Atatürk Memorial, Anzac Parade, Canberra. Ataturk lead the forces thatopposed Australia and other allies at Gallipoli and he had the upmost respect for Australians, and Australians have the same respect for Turkish people.
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This misinterpretation of ANZAC Day by Krisno has really annoyed me.
maybe he should listen to the words of Australia's two most famous songs about war
And the Band Played Waltzing Matllda (about Gallipoli)
I Was Only 19 (about the Vietnam War)
Both songs give an anti-war message
Our most famous war movie, Gallipoli also has a anti-war sentiment
our two most famous war heroes, John Simpson (KirkPatrick) and Weary Dunlop are not remember for killing but for saving lives, Simpson for risking his life and untlmately dying to save the lives of injured soldiers and Dunlop for his work as a doctor in a Japanese POW camp during WW2.
Our most famous war photo
maybe he should listen to the words of Australia's two most famous songs about war
And the Band Played Waltzing Matllda (about Gallipoli)
I Was Only 19 (about the Vietnam War)
Both songs give an anti-war message
Our most famous war movie, Gallipoli also has a anti-war sentiment
our two most famous war heroes, John Simpson (KirkPatrick) and Weary Dunlop are not remember for killing but for saving lives, Simpson for risking his life and untlmately dying to save the lives of injured soldiers and Dunlop for his work as a doctor in a Japanese POW camp during WW2.
Our most famous war photo
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