The best first officer in the Fleet?

[Warped9]

One of the issues not really addressed in TOS is average human lifespan in the future. Today people on average stay younger and more vital longer than even fifty years ago. 50 is the new 40 and 60 is the new 50. If this trend were to continue (not necessarily in a linear manner) than humans might live about 20-30 years longer on average than they do today or the average in the ‘60s.

The one time that issue might have been apparent was in “The Deadly Years.” By the standards of the average lifespan in the mid 20th century at the rate our heroes were aging I would have expected them to be dead in short order. But if the average lifespan in the 23rd century were longer than that window of survival would have been greater.

And finally in TNG’s “Encounter At Farpoint” we see McCoy at 137. Maybe he was an exception, but it did suggest humans of the 23rd century are expected to live longer on average than today. And that was bolstered by Picard being physically and mentally vital and in command while in his 60s.

 

[Henoch]

35 was my new 55 and that was 30 years ago.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

If I recall, at least in the Star Trek Chronology, Picard is stated to be the youngest captain in Starfleet history when he took command of the Stargazer at age 28. If Kirk was as young as 29 when he took command of the Enterprise, and Pike was as young as 30 when he took command of the Enterprise, they could have all set records without being all that much younger than some other captains, but still younger than most from any given graduating class (yet all 3 exceptional, all 3 worth making a TV series about).

So, going by the stardates, if "The Menagerie" is during the third year of the 5-year mission (3012), then Kirk is about 33, and we see Pike when was in command 13 years ago at the age of 30, and Pike is about 43. They would be about ten years apart in age, just close enough that "about your age" is only a very small exaggeration by an emotional man about to show them Pike's injuries. Even rounding ages differently, Kirk would still be about 30 with Pike about 45.

I think that there is not really that much of a conflict between what is shown and the idea that Kirk could have set the record for youngest captain, even allowing for other young captains that we did not see to exist.

Also, (dare I say it) since anyone commanding a ship could be its captain, even at another rank, I am assuming in all this that we are talking about the actual rank of captain and the command of a "starship," and not a lesser vessel. If we go way out on a limb and strictly interpret the older rank insignia from the pilots by the series system (which is a ridiculous stretch), then Pike would be a LT or, generously, a LTCMDR commanding a then-smaller ship, but still a "starship," of only 203 people.

 

[Warped9]

When I’m trying to figure out what is intended in TOS I essentially throw away and ignore whatever came later because that will inevitably be nothing but retconning to satisfy the agenda of that later production.

The problem with “The Cage” and, to some extent, “Where No Man Has Gone Before” is that those were early drafts of Star Trek where the major kinks were not yet worked out. Indeed a fair portion of the first season still has things not yet worked out. Initially “The Cage” was never meant to be seen at all until production issues forced them to be creative and utilize the first pilot. Subsequently WNMHGB should have been the first TOS episode aired, but it wasn’t and thus sowed confusion amongst viewers for decades.

 

[Poltargyst]

When I was a kid back in the 70's watching reruns every night, I believed Kirk was the youngest Captain in the fleet. I didn't just make that up, I had to have gotten that from somewhere. If it's not actually said in an episode, could it have been in TMOST? Or TAS?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Well technically she was suffering from amnesia (partial or total loss of memory.) However there does not appear to be any evidence to suggest that it was temporary though. If it were temporary then the crew wouldn't have agreed with Nomad's statement and just let Uhura recover on her own.

Come on, man. There is nothing but evidence that it was temporary. Does anybody seriously think Uhura was starting from zero, and yet was talking so soon? Or that the Chapel Curriculum begins with attaining Swahili fluency for some reason, and then goes on to English? Or that Uhura spent the entire rest of the series with no memories prior to "The Changeling"? That means she was a total newbie, an overgrown child with no life experience, no wisdom, just hasty book learning. That's the theory that doesn't fit the evidence.

 

[Holopat]

Is there anything in TOS that points to Kirk to being unusually young to being a starship captain? We know Lt Commander Gary Mitchell was age 23 and Doctor Elizabeth Dehner was age 21 in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". So would it have been unusual for Captain Pike in "The Cage" to be around his mid-to-late twenties or even as you suggest around his early thirties?

Keep in mind that my response was to Holopat's suggestion that Kirk was "fast tracked" and cited examples of only seeing older starship captains. I pointed out that Captain Pike, another starship captain, wasn't older as per dialogue which would suggest that there is a much wider range of ages than Holopat's suggestion.

There weren't any younger Starship Captains than Kirk. Not only is it canon, part of the series character guides, but there were none shown. Pike was an earlier iteration of Kirk, so naturally he shared the character guide, but when he was replaced in the series, Kirk was canonically the youngest starship captain. There's no empirical evidence of any younger Starship Captains. All that were shown in TOS were older, some quite a bit older. Given this is supported not only by series guides but empirical (series episodes) evidence, I don't get the insistence that Kirk's character isn't what he was written to be. The definition of Kirk's character was that he was the youngest most exceptional officer to make Starship Captain

As for Gary Mitchell, no way was he that young in WNMH. Dehner looked early 30s. Mitchell too.

Is there anything in TOS that points to Kirk to being unusually young to being a starship captain? We know Lt Commander Gary Mitchell was age 23 and Doctor Elizabeth Dehner was age 21 in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". So would it have been unusual for Captain Pike in "The Cage" to be around his mid-to-late twenties or even as you suggest around his early thirties?

Keep in mind that my response was to Holopat's suggestion that Kirk was "fast tracked" and cited examples of only seeing older starship captains. I pointed out that Captain Pike, another starship captain, wasn't older as per dialogue which would suggest that there is a much wider range of ages than Holopat's suggestion.

 

[Warped9]

When I was a kid back in the 70's watching reruns every night, I believed Kirk was the youngest Captain in the fleet. I didn't just make that up, I had to have gotten that from somewhere. If it's not actually said in an episode, could it have been in TMOST? Or TAS?

It’s not mentioned anywhere in TOS, TAS or any of the films. But it is mentioned in TMoST.

But an important point is Kirk could be the youngest starship Captain in the fleet, but not necessarily absurdly young like below 30. Starfleet, in a more credible reality, would not hand command of one of their most prestigious ships to a youngster no matter how gifted. So the insistence to make Kirk 30-32 when getting command of the Enterprise strikes me as pushing credibility. On the other hand lining up Kirk’s age with Shatner’s kinda works. If Kirk was born in 2231 and takes command of the Enterprise in 2264-65 that puts him at 33-34, or about 34, years of age. That works. And he could still be the youngest starship Captain in the fleet while the others are about 5-10 years or so older than he is when they attained starship command.

 

[Holopat]

Again, Pike was the original series lead, before the pilot was replaced with Kirk. It was only included in the series because they needed to cannibalize it for economic and logistical purposes. But when Shatner took over the character, he took over the bio. Pike's history (added as a late addition for expediencies' sake) can't invalidate the series' bios and TMOST where Kirk is said to be the youngest Starship Captain. Even Startrek.com says in Kirk's bio he was the youngest. There's no empirical evidence in the series of any younger captains. They all were older. So via Star Trek written canon, and TOS episodes, there multiple instances of evidence to validate it. I can't see why anyone is arguing it, since it is part of his character bio and a series premise).The extreme reach to say Kirk was not what he was written to be, seems, frankly ridiculous to me.

 

[blssdwlf]

Come on, man. There is nothing but evidence that it was temporary. Does anybody seriously think Uhura was starting from zero, and yet was talking so soon? Or that the Chapel Curriculum begins with attaining Swahili fluency for some reason, and then goes on to English? Or that Uhura spent the entire rest of the series with no memories prior to "The Changeling"? That means she was a total newbie, an overgrown child with no life experience, no wisdom, just hasty book learning. That's the theory that doesn't fit the evidence.

That's how the episode played out and that's what the dialogue indicated. You can interpret it as Uhura being taught her native language first before progressing to English in 1st grade and continuing on or some variation of that.

But the point still stands that in TOS there is a way to educate someone from 1st grade to qualified communications officer in a week.

There weren't any younger Starship Captains than Kirk. Not only is it canon, part of the series character guides, but there were none shown. Pike was an earlier iteration of Kirk, so naturally he shared the character guide, but when he was replaced in the series, Kirk was canonically the youngest starship captain. There's no empirical evidence of any younger Starship Captains. All that were shown in TOS were older, some quite a bit older. Given this is supported not only by series guides but empirical (series episodes) evidence, I don't get the insistence that Kirk's character isn't what he was written to be. The definition of Kirk's character was that he was the youngest most exceptional officer to make Starship Captain

As for Gary Mitchell, no way was he that young in WNMH. Dehner looked early 30s. Mitchell too.

And that is why we have to agree to disagree. You know if you use the episodes as any evidence you run into the problem of a young Captain Pike who "shares the same character guide" and therefore just as young as Kirk. Therefore Kirk is not unusual in being young as there is another captain just as young as he was in TOS.

It’s not mentioned anywhere in TOS, TAS or any of the films. But it is mentioned in TMoST.

But an important point is Kirk could be the youngest starship Captain in the fleet, but not necessarily absurdly young like below 30. Starfleet, in a more credible reality, would not hand command of one of their most prestigious ships to a youngster no matter how gifted. So the insistence to make Kirk 30-32 when getting command of the Enterprise strikes me as pushing credibility. On the other hand lining up Kirk’s age with Shatner’s kinda works. If Kirk was born in 2231 and takes command of the Enterprise in 2264-65 that puts him at 33-34, or about 34, years of age. That works. And he could still be the youngest starship Captain in the fleet while the others are about 5-10 years or so older than he is when they attained starship command.

Yeah, it's only mentioned in TMOST. No other episode mentions age being a factor. The only episode that ever talks about "the youngest starfleet captain" is in TNG's "Conspiracy" and that was Captain Tryla Scott.

 

[Poltargyst]

It’s not mentioned anywhere in TOS, TAS or any of the films. But it is mentioned in TMoST.

Ah. I had TMOST. That's where I got it then.

But an important point is Kirk could be the youngest starship Captain in the fleet, but not necessarily absurdly young like below 30. Starfleet, in a more credible reality, would not hand command of one of their most prestigious ships to a youngster no matter how gifted. So the insistence to make Kirk 30-32 when getting command of the Enterprise strikes me as pushing credibility. On the other hand lining up Kirk’s age with Shatner’s kinda works. If Kirk was born in 2231 and takes command of the Enterprise in 2264-65 that puts him at 33-34, or about 34, years of age. That works. And he could still be the youngest starship Captain in the fleet while the others are about 5-10 years or so older than he is when they attained starship command.

In my head canon I like to think of Kirk as being Shatner's age. Like you say, it makes some things line up better.

 

[Henoch]

In my head canon I like to think of Kirk as being Shatner's age. Like you say, it makes some things line up better.

Shatner was 36 and1/2 years old in The Deadly Years when Kirk was 34 (and maybe 1/2).

 

[Poltargyst]

Shatner was 36 and1/2 years old in The Deadly Years when Kirk was 34 (and maybe 1/2).

Works for me.

 

[johnnybear]

The thing is we have to accept that Spock is the best first officer in the fleet as we never saw any of the others!!! We rarely saw another Starship in the series outside of three instances in season two and one in the third season and in all those times we only ever saw the Captains (or Commodores) so it's Spock all the way!
JB

 

[blssdwlf]

The thing is we have to accept that Spock is the best first officer in the fleet as we never saw any of the others!!! We rarely saw another Starship in the series outside of three instances in season two and one in the third season and in all those times we only ever saw the Captains (or Commodores) so it's Spock all the way!
JB

LOL, Spock wins by default.

 

[johnnybear]

He does indeed, blssdwlf!
JB

 

[Nerys Myk]

The thing is we have to accept that Spock is the best first officer in the fleet as we never saw any of the others!!! We rarely saw another Starship in the series outside of three instances in season two and one in the third season and in all those times we only ever saw the Captains (or Commodores) so it's Spock all the way!
JB

Number One says “Hi.”

 

[blssdwlf]

Number One says “Hi.”

True, if we go back 13 years then "Number One" is the number one first officer Kirk crushed Mitchell's aspirations for being the best first officer so that leaves Spock as the one and only known first officer at the time of "Operation: Annihilate". (Assuming Number One got a captain's spot by the time TOS comes around.)

 

[johnnybear]

Gary Mitchell was a Lieutenant Commander and Helmsman, not a First Officer to be honest and I'm not sure he had aspirations in that direction either. It might be true that his death may have led to Spock becoming Kirk's best friend though...
JB

 

[blssdwlf]

Gary Mitchell was a Lieutenant Commander and Helmsman, not a First Officer to be honest and I'm not sure he had aspirations in that direction either. It might be true that his death may have led to Spock becoming Kirk's best friend though...
JB

Ohh yeah. No one was called out as Kirk's first officer in WNMHGB. That is wild!