The best first officer in the Fleet?

[Holopat]

Ever watch Top Gun? Only the best of the best, etc. The military just loves to rank their officers from top to bottom. They fast-track the best; they fire the worst.

Well, they certainly promoted Kirk fast, for him to be given command of one of 12 Starships in his early thirties. Most Starship captains that we saw in TOS looked "seasoned", about a decade or more older. (this assuming that humans' ages appear as they do now and I think that's probably not true. So they could be somewhat older. Kirk appeared to have been super "fast tracked".

It could be Spock should have been promoted somewhat earlier, if he became "the best first officer in the Fleet" after only about two years as exec (and holding down the science officer duties too). A quick rise, given there were 11 other first officers on active duty Starships, most probably having more time in the position. As others have suggested, Starfleet was perhaps uncomfortable with a Vulcan in a top command position on a human ship, so he might have been well versed in the exec duties for some time, even if he didn't officially hold that position. And perhaps Spock was unwilling to take the position, not wanting command. Perhaps preferring his science officer duties (and he certainly kept them after becoming First Officer). Perhaps he refused or dodged the position until he had seniority enough that it was a case of him accepting the position or being forced to resign or be reassigned. If he's qualified, has the efficiency ratings, has the time served and is due for the promotion and refuses it, Starfleet could think it might cause problems to have an over qualified officer in a subordinate position. Maybe they gave him a choice to accept the promotion or reconsider his position. It's interesting to consider. Not sure if Spock was fast tracked or if he was "force" tracked, so to speak, to be exec. And that's why he became the best Exec in the fleet after only a couple of years in the position. Just speculation. Maybe it happened that way, maybe not.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

And perhaps Spock was unwilling to take the position, not wanting command. Perhaps preferring his science officer duties (and he certainly kept them after becoming First Officer).

He says the first part of this quote repeatedly throughout the show. And his mirror-version even says the second part outright.

 

[blssdwlf]

Captain Pike in TOS was arguably younger than Kirk when they commanded the Enterprise. Pike was "about Kirk's age" in "The Menagerie" so he would've been a decade younger back in "The Cage". This would suggest that there is a fairly wide range of ages for starship captains.

 

[Holopat]

Captain Pike in TOS was arguably younger than Kirk when they commanded the Enterprise. Pike was "about Kirk's age" in "The Menagerie" so he would've been a decade younger back in "The Cage". This would suggest that there is a fairly wide range of ages for starship captains.

Part of Kirks character bio from Roddenberry was that he was the youngest — making of Star Trek I think or character bios for the series writers. Pike of course was the original series lead so naturally he was young too. But when Shatner took on that character he took on the ‘youngest’ characteristic.

 

[blssdwlf]

Part of Kirks character bio from Roddenberry was that he was the youngest — making of Star Trek I think or character bios for the series writers. Pike of course was the original series lead so naturally he was young too. But when Shatner took on that character he took on the ‘youngest’ characteristic.

The problem with bios and behind-the-scene materials is that it doesn't always match up with what has been aired. Pike was almost a decade younger than Kirk when he got the Enterprise as far as TOS goes.

From "The Menagerie"

MENDEZ: You ever met Chris Pike?
KIRK: When he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
MENDEZ: About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active.
KIRK: I took over the Enterprise from him.​

 

[Holopat]

The problem with bios and behind-the-scene materials is that it doesn't always match up with what has been aired. Pike was almost a decade younger than Kirk when he got the Enterprise as far as TOS goes.

From "The Menagerie"

MENDEZ: You ever met Chris Pike?
KIRK: When he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
MENDEZ: About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active.
KIRK: I took over the Enterprise from him.​

This was from Roddenberry, and the original series canon bible, so to speak, so I take it as definitive. Pike was young - because he was meant to be the original lead, so the bio applied to him. He was the Kirk of the first pilot. But Kirk had to be the youngest to fit the character as written. Mendez was a quite a bit older so from his perspective, Pike (when he got injured) and Kirk were about the same age.

 

[blssdwlf]

This was from Roddenberry, and the original series canon bible, so to speak, so I take it as definitive. Pike was young - because he was meant to be the original lead, so the bio applied to him. He was the Kirk of the first pilot. But Kirk had to be the youngest to fit the character as written. Mendez was a quite a bit older so from his perspective, Pike (when he got injured) and Kirk were about the same age.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about captain age ranges then as we're using two different sources.

 

[Holopat]

The Cage was a failed pilot. It got included in the series because a combination of series costs and delays from the special effects made it attractive to use the original pilot in a bookended episode with the regular series characters. I don't think expediency invalidates the original premise characterization of the series lead. Part of his character was that he was the youngest. Sure we can disagree, but to me, economics of network television don't override the series premise for that character.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

This was from Roddenberry, and the original series canon bible, so to speak, so I take it as definitive. Pike was young - because he was meant to be the original lead, so the bio applied to him. He was the Kirk of the first pilot. But Kirk had to be the youngest to fit the character as written. Mendez was a quite a bit older so from his perspective, Pike (when he got injured) and Kirk were about the same age.

That's right. Kirk would be 33 in "The Menagerie." That's very young for the captain of a capital ship. If Pike and Kirk were the same age, then Pike would have to be a 20 year old boy in "The Cage," and that's preposterous.

Mendez was speaking in very general terms, to prep the audience for a bigger shock. If we know Pike is a fairly young man, the sight of him in his wheelchair lands that much harder on us. So for Mendez, 33 and 46 are about the same. His dialogue meets the needs of drama.

 

[blssdwlf]

That's right. Kirk would be 33 in "The Menagerie." That's very young for the captain of a capital ship. If Pike and Kirk were the same age, then Pike would have to be a 20 year old boy in "The Cage," and that's preposterous.

Mendez was speaking in very general terms, to prep the audience for a bigger shock. If we know Pike is a fairly young man, the sight of him in his wheelchair lands that much harder on us. So for Mendez, 33 and 46 are about the same. His dialogue meets the needs of drama.

Is there anything in TOS that points to Kirk to being unusually young to being a starship captain? We know Lt Commander Gary Mitchell was age 23 and Doctor Elizabeth Dehner was age 21 in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". So would it have been unusual for Captain Pike in "The Cage" to be around his mid-to-late twenties or even as you suggest around his early thirties?

Keep in mind that my response was to Holopat's suggestion that Kirk was "fast tracked" and cited examples of only seeing older starship captains. I pointed out that Captain Pike, another starship captain, wasn't older as per dialogue which would suggest that there is a much wider range of ages than Holopat's suggestion.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Is there anything in TOS that points to Kirk to being unusually young to being a starship captain? We know Lt Commander Gary Mitchell was age 23 and Doctor Elizabeth Dehner was age 21 in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Life is hard in space.

 

[blssdwlf]

Life is hard in space.

Yeah, life is hard in space. Another thought is that if you were an older, active, starship captain you were extremely lucky or awesome given the number of dead or insane starship commanders (Excalibur, Defiant, Constellation, Enterprise/Pike, and Exeter). Starfleet would want to keep a steady flow of young captains (and crews) to replace the ones that are not going to make it.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Is there anything in TOS that points to Kirk to being unusually young to being a starship captain? We know Lt Commander Gary Mitchell was age 23 and Doctor Elizabeth Dehner was age 21 in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Mitchell and Dehner were that young when those pages were typed up, but they were older than that in WNMHGB. Counting four years of university, it takes 12 years to become a psychiatrist. Dehner was at least 30 in the story (Sally Kellerman was about 28). And Mitchell looked older than 23. Gary Lockwood was also about 28, which seems more in keeping with Mitchell's rank.

Nowadays, Wikipedia pages update a person's age automatically, but back in the 2260's, computers couldn't do that. You got scans of paper documents. It's retro-futurism.

The onscreen evidence that Kirk was young for the job is the ages of Tracy, Decker, and Wesley.

 

[blssdwlf]

Mitchell and Dehner were that young when those pages were typed up, but they were older than that in WNMHGB. Counting four years of university, it takes 12 years to become a psychiatrist. Dehner was at least 30 in the story (Sally Kellerman was about 28). And Mitchell looked older than 23. Gary Lockwood was also about 28, which seems more in keeping with Mitchell's rank.

Those are assumptions that they are too young for their positions. We know that in TOS that people can be educated very quickly like Uhura in "The Changeling" where she goes from 1st grade education to college level in days and back to her rank and role in a week.

The onscreen evidence that Kirk was young for the job is the ages of Tracy, Decker, and Wesley.

The onscreen evidence you've cited are for commanders on the upper age range. Tracey, one of the "most experienced captains" and two Commodores who have been promoted above the rank of Captain. However, you left out Captain Christopher Pike to anchor the younger set of the spectrum. So is it unusual in TOS for Captain James Kirk to be young? Did he get "fast tracked" when you look at all of TOS?

Captain Ron Tracey, USS Exeter, "One of the most experienced captains in the Starfleet"
Commodore Matt Decker, USS Constellation, and how old was he when he was just a captain? Does Matt look older or younger than the experienced Tracey?
Commodore Robert Wesley, USS Lexington, same question as Decker. How old was he when he was just a captain? Does Wesley look younger or older than Tracey?
and for contrast, a Captain Christopher Pike as Captain of the Enterprise back in "The Cage".

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Those are assumptions that they are too young for their positions. We know that in TOS that people can be educated very quickly like Uhura in "The Changeling" where she goes from 1st grade education to college level in days and back to her rank and role in a week.

NOMAD was fallible as hell, and did not know everything about the human brain. It seems clear that Uhura was suffering temporary amnesia, not the total wipe NOMAD thought he'd inflicted.

The onscreen evidence you've cited are for commanders on the upper age range. Tracey, one of the "most experienced captains" and two Commodores who have been promoted above the rank of Captain. However, you left out Captain Christopher Pike to anchor the younger set of the spectrum. So is it unusual in TOS for Captain James Kirk to be young? Did he get "fast tracked" when you look at all of TOS?

Captain Ron Tracey, USS Exeter, "One of the most experienced captains in the Starfleet"
Commodore Matt Decker, USS Constellation, and how old was he when he was just a captain? Does Matt look older or younger than the experienced Tracey?
Commodore Robert Wesley, USS Lexington, same question as Decker. How old was he when he was just a captain? Does Wesley look younger or older than Tracey?
and for contrast, a Captain Christopher Pike as Captain of the Enterprise back in "The Cage".

I'd like to add a nuance here: the boast that Kirk is the youngest starship captain in the fleet is not about his promotion to captain's rank. It's about which officers with the required rank get to command a starship. "Captain" can mean the rank, or it can mean the job. A lieutenant can be the captain of a ship. So the fact that Wesley and Decker were commodores is less of an issue. They were older guys in command of capital ships.

 

[Warped9]

I know it bucks the popular opinion, but I have long taken to heart the idea Kirk was 34 when he got command of the Enterprise. And I got this idea from “The Deadly Years” when Kirk was asked his age during his competency hearing. Kirk’s faulty memory was him remembering his age when he achieved his life-long ambition—to command a starship.

To be “youngest starship Captain in the fleet” doesn’t have be by much, but it it is clear he is younger by maybe a decade than the average based on the other samples we saw: Stone, Krasnovski, Chandra, Matt Decker, Ron Tracey and Robert Wesley. Pike could have been the youngest before Kirk beat him by a year or two.

 

[Metryq]

It was the '60s. Kirk was a Kennedy.

 

[blssdwlf]

NOMAD was fallible as hell, and did not know everything about the human brain. It seems clear that Uhura was suffering temporary amnesia, not the total wipe NOMAD thought he'd inflicted.

Well technically she was suffering from amnesia (partial or total loss of memory.) However there does not appear to be any evidence to suggest that it was temporary though. If it were temporary then the crew wouldn't have agreed with Nomad's statement and just let Uhura recover on her own.

From "The Changeling":

NOMAD: The unit Scott required simple structural repair. The knowledge banks of this unit has been wiped clean.
SPOCK: Captain, if that is correct, if there has been no brain damage but knowledge erased, she could be re-educated.
KIRK: Bones?
MCCOY: Yes, I'll get on it right away.
...
MCCOY: How's she doing?
CHAPEL: Well, she's on the first grade reader. She's learning. Seems to have an aptitude for mathematics. Do you think we can re-educate her, Doctor?
MCCOY: Well, she checks out with no brain damage. We've got all the educational tapes in our library. Now it's up to us.
...
MCCOY: I thought you might like to know that Lieutenant Uhura is back to college level. She'll be back on the job within a week.
KIRK: Good. Bones, good.​

I'd like to add a nuance here: the boast that Kirk is the youngest starship captain in the fleet is not about his promotion to captain's rank.

Where again in TOS is there any dialogue or something that states Kirk is the "youngest starship captain in the fleet"?

It's about which officers with the required rank get to command a starship. "Captain" can mean the rank, or it can mean the job. A lieutenant can be the captain of a ship. So the fact that Wesley and Decker were commodores is less of an issue. They were older guys in command of capital ships.

The thing is that your examples of Commodores show that you can have someone with much more experience and older in appearance like Tracey being just a captain and Commodore ranks with Decker appearing younger than Tracey. Throw in Pike back in "The Cage" and it shows that starship commanders have a larger range of ages than posited by Holopat's earlier post that I was replying to.

EDIT: One more Starship Captain to throw into the mix. Former Fleet Captain Garth from "Whom Gods Destroy". Steve Ihnat who played Garth is 3 years younger than Shatner. Kirk referenced reading of Garth's exploits when he was a cadet. How old would Garth had been when he was just a captain?

To be “youngest starship Captain in the fleet” doesn’t have be by much, but it it is clear he is younger by maybe a decade than the average based on the other samples we saw: Stone, Krasnovski, Chandra, Matt Decker, Ron Tracey and Robert Wesley. Pike could have been the youngest before Kirk beat him by a year or two.

At least you're recognizing Kirk isn't the only young captain depicted in TOS Is he the youngest? I have yet to see anything in TOS that supports that.

EDIT: An interesting question back at you @Warped9 and @ZapBrannigan - how many years do you think Kirk, Garth, Stone, Krasnovski, Chandra, Matt Decker, Ron Tracey, Robert Wesley and Christopher Pike have been starship captains? What age were they when they got their command? Care to speculate since we're seeing most of them at a later point in their careers (some already Commodores and Fleet Captains).

 

[Henoch]

At least you're recognizing Kirk isn't the only young captain depicted in TOS Is he the youngest? I have yet to see anything in TOS that supports that.

I have yet to see anything in TOS that disproves it, either.

In my head canon, Kirk got promoted to captain just before his 31st birthday (April 1), so, he was 30. He then got assigned to replace Pike on the Enterprise. By the time he flew out and caught up with the Enterprise, his birthday passed, so, he was 31 when took command of the Enterprise. Don't know if he was the youngest captain, but he was certainly young-ish. Kirk takes over Pike's probing mission at the edge of the galaxy (not on a 5 year mission) in WNMHGB. I add in about 1-1/2 years to get back to Earth then oversee the ship refit. The ship is relaunched on its five year mission (Sept. 1) <just in time for the fall TV season>. By stardate, two more years occur until The Deadly Years, where Kirk is 34 years old. <No, he's not that senile that he doesn't know his own age.> YMMV .

 

[blssdwlf]

I have yet to see anything in TOS that disproves it, either.

Yes, a stalemate.

In my head canon, Kirk got promoted to captain just before his 31st birthday (April 1), so, he was 30. He then got assigned to replace Pike on the Enterprise. By the time he flew out and caught up with the Enterprise, his birthday passed, so, he was 31 when took command of the Enterprise. Don't know if he was the youngest captain, but he was certainly young-ish. Kirk takes over Pike's probing mission at the edge of the galaxy (not on a 5 year mission) in WNMHGB. I add in about 1-1/2 years to get back to Earth then oversee the ship refit. The ship is relaunched on its five year mission (Sept. 1) <just in time for the fall TV season>. By stardate, two more years occur until The Deadly Years, where Kirk is 34 years old. <No, he's not that senile that he doesn't know his own age.> YMMV .

Right. Kirk's age has never been in question in my posts. I questioned if he was unusually young or "fast tracked". And there is not any evidence in an episode to show that so far.