• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The (almost) steady increase in "epicness" of Trek...

Enterprise is... Enterprise. We both have the same opinion of this series. So let's just skip it. Entirely.



I completely ignore and disregard ENT.

I agree with you totally here! ENT could not possibly be a prequel to TOS for many reasons! The only explanation I have for it's existence is that the Temporal Cold War and it's interference with past events created a parallel reality which has led us to DSC! So both shows which present such advancement in science and weaponry and the like couldn't possibly be before Kirk's epic voyages so I DO ignore both and neither sit on my shelf for repeat viewings! :D
JB
 
I agree with you totally here! ENT could not possibly be a prequel to TOS for many reasons! The only explanation I have for it's existence is that the Temporal Cold War and it's interference with past events created a parallel reality which has led us to DSC! So both shows which present such advancement in science and weaponry and the like couldn't possibly be before Kirk's epic voyages so I DO ignore both and neither sit on my shelf for repeat viewings! :D
JB

I have no problem with if DSC was another timeline.

But, either way, I still put DS9 at the top of the "epic" scale, even though it's only my third-favorite Trek series. At the end, you have all four major Alpha Quadrant powers united against the Dominion.

Afterwards, Cardsassia is in ruins, the Federation has a mole on Romulus thanks to Section 31, the Klingons fought a lot harder and are thus in much rougher shape... and, overall, it looks like the Federation is on top of the Quadrant.

We see so little of the Alpha Quadrant after DS9, it might as well be the final word on the state of things, for now.
 
Last edited:
Along with the epic stakes rising, is the disaster porn. I noticed a lot of large scale disasters and destruction that increases with each series.

TOS started with the Eugenics war which killed 30 million. DS9 has the Breen attack earth. TNG makes WW3 a separate incident, 600 million killed. The Cardassians are decimated by the Dominion, close to a billion. The Xindi from Enterprise appear out of nowhere, and attack earth, 7 million.

Then the JJ movies has the entire planet Romulus destroyed, and later Vulcan.

The problem with all this is, the more destruction they showed the less I started reacting to it later. By the time they showed the Xindi attack, Romulas and Vulan being destroyed, I had almost no reaction.

I know I was supposed to, but so much of it was piled on at that point, that I just didn't.

In the opening of TOS episode "The Changeling":

KIRK: Any response from the Malurians, Lieutenant?
UHURA: Nothing since their original distress call, sir.
KIRK: What about the Federation science team working there? Doctor Manway had a special transmitter.
UHURA: There's nothing, sir. I'm scanning all frequencies.
KIRK: They have to answer.
SPOCK: Captain. They will not answer. The long-range sensor sweep of this system reveals no sign of life.
KIRK: That can't be. The last census reported a total inhabitation of more than four billion people.
SPOCK: I register no life readings at all, sir.

And later Earth is threatened with the same fate:

SPOCK: Even worse. Nomad just now made a reference to its launch point, Earth.
KIRK: Spock, do you think it's possible that it got a fix on Earth when it tapped the computers earlier?
SPOCK: I do not believe there is much beyond Nomad's capabilities.
KIRK: And we've shown it the way home. And when it gets there
SPOCK: It will find the Earth infested with imperfect biological units.
KIRK: And it will carry out its prime directive. Sterilise.

KIRK: Then you will continue to destroy that which thinks and lives and is imperfect?
NOMAD: I shall continue. I shall return to launch point Earth. I shall sterilise.

So the stakes got very large scale in some TOS episodes, and sometimes millions and billions of people died.

...
TOS started with the Eugenics war which killed 30 million... TNG makes WW3 a separate incident, 600 million killed...

In "Space seed":

SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

So Spock and McCoy established that the last so called world war on Earth is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Thus the list of world wars on Earth that was taught in schools when Spock and McCoy attended ends with the Eugenics Wars. The Eugenics Wars might be listed as the Second World War, the Third World War, the Fourth World War, the Fifth World War, the Sixth World war, etc., but it was certainly listed as Earth's last world war when Spock and McCoy studied Earth History (possibly on different planets).

The mid 1990s in the calendar sued in "Space Seed" should be defined as lasting from approximately 1993.333 to 1996.666 in that calendar. Since interplanetary (and possibly interstellar) space travel became much faster around the year 2018 (about 2016 to 2020?) in the calendar used in "Space Seed" the Eugenics Wars were about 19.334 to 27.666 years before the time when interplanetary travel became much faster and the earliest possible time when warp capable ships could have been introduced.

Spock also describes that era as:

SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence...

This implies that maybe hundreds of millions of people were killed in the Eugenics Wars. Possibly billions.

In "The City on the Edge of Forever":

SPOCK: This is how history went after McCoy changed it. Here, in the late 1930s. A growing pacifist movement whose influence delayed the United States' entry into the Second World War. While peace negotiations dragged on, Germany had time to complete its heavy-water experiments.
KIRK: Germany. Fascism. Hitler. They won the Second World War.

This shows that the Second World War in the history books used by Kirk, and possibly also by Spock and McCoy, was the one with Hitler and the Nazis and more or less the equivalent of the Second World War in our history and in our lists of World Wars. Which means that the Eugenics Wars must have been World War III, World War IV, or later, but were definitely the last in the list of world wars on Earth in the era of Kirk.

in "Bread and Circuses":

SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism.
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?

This directly states that Earth had at least three world wars. And strongly implies there may have been more than three.

Earlier in the episode:

KIRK: What era?
SPOCK: No sign of atomic power as yet, but far enough along for radio communications, power transportation, an excellent road system.
UHURA: Captain, both amplitude and frequency modulation being used. I think I can pick up something visual. It's a news broadcast using a system I think they once called video.
SPOCK: Television was the colloquial term.

And:

KIRK: Slaves and gladiators. What are we seeing, a twentieth-century Rome?

This indicates that the planet in "Bread and Circuses" seems to be approximately as advanced as Earth was at a time somewhere between 1901 and 2000 in the Earth calendar used in "Bread and Circuses". So possibly Spock listed the first three world wars in Earth's history, the ones that happened before the approximate Earth equivalent of the planet's stage of development..

The thirty seven million who died in Spock's Third World War are a horrifyingly large number, but seem far too few for World War Three as it was imagined when "Bread and Circuses" was being produced, and also far too few for the whole populations being bombed out of existence in the Eugenics Wars. Thus it seems logical to deduce that the Eugenics wars were listed as World War Four, World War Five, or whatever, but were definitely after World War Three in Spock's historical list.

So your statement:

...
TOS started with the Eugenics war which killed 30 million...

Seems to be to be an inaccurate deduction. I believe that the Eugenics Wars in which whole populations were bombed out of existence was a later world war than the Third World War on Spock's list of Earth conflicts, a Third World War in which "only" 37,000,000 and not 30 million people were killed and which was much less bloody than the Eugenics Wars.

When they chase a Borg sphere back in time in Star Trek: First Contact:

DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.

Clearly this Third World War must have been much more devastating than the Third World War in Spock's list of Earth's world wars. Therefore the more or less official list of Earth's world wars must have changed between when Spock studied Earth history and when Data and the other officers of the E-D studied Earth history.

Maybe Spock's First World War was left off the list because it wasn't big enough, which would make Data's Third World War equal to Spock's Fourth World War or a later one.

Maybe Spock's First and Second World Wars were left off the list because they weren't big enough, which would make Data's Third World War equal to Spock's Fifth World War or a later one.

Maybe Spock's First, Second and Third World Wars were left off the list because they weren't big enough, which would make Data's Third World War equal to Spock's Sixth World War or a later one.

Maybe Data's list of Earth's world wars included the Third, Fifth, and Sixth World Wars on Spock's list, but not the First, Second, Fourth, and Seventh World Wars on Spock's list.

Perhaps it is possible that Earth's last world war, the Eugenics wars, happened sometime after the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact.

But if so, there would not be much time for it to happen between the Eugenics Wars and Star Trek: First Contact or after Star Trek: First Contact and before Earth became peaceful.

As I said above: the Eugenics Wars were about 19.334 to 27.666 years before the time when interplanetary travel became much faster and the earliest possible time when warp capable ships could have been introduced.

A little while later in Star Trek: First Contact:

PICARD: A missile complex? ...The date? Mister Data, I need to know the exact date.
DATA: April fourth, two thousand sixty-three.
PICARD: April fourth?
RIKER: The day before First Contact.

On April 4th in the year 2063 in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact, Zefram Cochrane makes the first test flight of a warp drive ship and the Vulcans land to make First Contact with Earth. This leads to the rebuilding of Earth and in most interpretations a rather swift end to wars on Earth which means that in most interpretations the Eugenics Wars could not happen many years after First Contact.

And once Zefram Cochrane has invented the warp drive Earth people are eventually going to start building warp drive ships. Warp capable ships are definitely going to make interplanetary travel much faster and easier than it was before. How long after Star Trek: First Contact do you think it will be before Earth stars building warp capable ships? Five years? Ten years? Fifteen years? Twenty years?

What do they say about interplanetary travel in the era of the Eugenics Wars in "Space Seed"?:

MARLA: Captain, it's a sleeper ship.
KIRK: Suspended animation.
MARLA: I've seen old photographs of this. Necessary because of the time involved in space travel until about the year 2018. It took years just to travel from one planet to another.

Obviously sleeper ships wouldn't be used once warp capable ships come into use, and if that might be five to twenty years after First Contact in 2063, it might be about 2068 to 2083.

As I wrote above:

The mid 1990s in the calendar used in "Space Seed" should be defined as lasting from approximately 1993.333 to 1996.666 in that calendar. Since interplanetary (and possibly interstellar) space travel became much faster around the year 2018 (about 2016 to 2020?) in the calendar used in "Space Seed" the Eugenics Wars were about 19.334 to 27.666 years before the time when interplanetary travel became much faster and the earliest possible time when warp capable ships could have been introduced.

So 2068.00 to 2083.999 minus about 19.334 to 27.666 years puts the latest possible dates for the Eugenics Wars, Earth's last world war, in about 2040.334 to 2064.665 in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact.

Data's statement that the Third World War happened approximately ten years before 2063 in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact puts it in about 2052 to 2054 - in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact.

The possible date range for the Eugenics Wars puts it before, during, or after the Third World War in Star Trek: First Contact. But since the Eugenics Wars were the last of Earth's world wars they must have happened during or after the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact.

Thus the Eugenics Wars happened sometime during the period of about 1993.333 to 1996.666 in the calendar used in "Space Seed" and also sometime during the period of 2052.000 to 2064.664 in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact. Thus the first years of the two calendars are separated by about 55.334 to 71.331 years.

And this proves that the number of deaths in the Eugenics wars were not retconned between "Space Seed" and Star Trek: First Contact to multiply the number of deaths twenty times. Instead the dialog in the movies and episodes indicates that Spock's last world war, the Eugenics Wars, was after his Third World War and had a different and probably much larger number of casualties.
 
Last edited:
Evidence seems to point to TOS believing the 90's were the turning point in human history, and after that was when humans began to advance. Some of the key words are "20th century".

Space Seed suggested that the leaders of the eugenics wars were defeated and that the war itself ended in the 90's. I think from the 60's point of view, the 90's was far enough away for use as a 'sci fi future', and eugenic wars was a futuristic enough.

TOS doesn't seem to mention anything else beyond the 20th century, except a mars colony.

Ret-coning and inserting events out of nowhere is common in Trek. It has done it so much they often forget when certain were supposed to happen.

Voyager visited the mid 1990's, right when the Eugenics War was supposed to take place. It didn't say a single thing about it and everything looked completely normal.

Dr Bashir, I presume, The Judge3Advocate General says that 200 years ago genetic engineering it led to the eugenics wars. The problem is that places it in 2173, when the Federation was already founded. Earth is having an eugenics war after all this progress?


There's even more evidence that TNG ret-con things even more when you read or hear the dialog between Q and Picard during their trial.

They showed a post apocalyptic horror court of "2079" when supposedly by 2063 humans contacted the Vulcans and were starting to solve their problems (with the Vulcan's help). Picard condemned it.

Just 40 something years later all poverty, war and social problems were solved. it seems strange that Earth would still have a court system like this after the Vulcans came in and still went on to solve all their problems.

It looks like this thought up before TNG FC came up with the Cochrane and Vulcan idea.

There was a lot of ret-conning and rearranging of events which resulted in the over-doing of the epic proportions thing the OP is talking about.
 
Last edited:
I mean, let's start with TOS. Kirk was an important Starfleet captain, since he commanded one of the twelve Constitution-class ships. But he was just a captain, fundamentally - not all that special. His interactions across the series were mostly with planetary-level crises.
Isn't this the same Kirk who fought a god-made-flesh in the second pilot? Who confronted at least five more gods on screen after that? Who stopped intergalactic war with the Romulans, the Klingons, and the Gorn all in the same year? Season 1 (airdate/Netflix order at least) ends with him facing off against three different galaxy-scale threats, and that's before we get into Season 2 with its Doomsday Machines and its Changelings and its Immunity Syndromes.

Or are we talking backstory only? Cuz being one of the only survivors of space-Mussolini's failed governance is pretty epic on paper. Certainly more epic than Picard's "my family are space-Amish" background.
 
TOS was not epic, but we made it epic in our minds. I think we are seeing characters become more epic, and the universe smaller, because i think there's an assumption that old fans want nostalgia and new fans need to understand what's going on, and small universes are a compromise.
 
TOS was not epic, but we made it epic in our minds. I think we are seeing characters become more epic, and the universe smaller, because i think there's an assumption that old fans want nostalgia and new fans need to understand what's going on, and small universes are a compromise.
I tend to agree here. There's the context of 'in story' whereby an adventure or an arc is epic. The fate of the world/universe rests in the hands of our heroes/heroines (anti-heroes, mirror heroes/villains). With subsequent Trek we have a history like a mythology of character and deed. Obviously The Original set the scene for this Universe and thereafter it has been important to link it all together. It's like a family. You discover your great, great, great Grandmother was a suffragette or some distant Uncle had a town named after him. It means more. Like that episode in Voyager where Janeway and Tuvok revisit Tuvok's time with Captain Sulu on the Excelsior (Flashback), Tuvok acknowledges that Janeway could enjoy the nostalgia of those days for both of them.

I think maybe it is time to dial back the frequency of these all or nothing fates. Totally different show but I'm reminded of Doctor Who and how the Doctor's companions have started to become crazy important universe and time dimensional altering, super duper god-like. Time Lord? That's nothing. You get desensitised to importance after a while.
 
Well I don't mind the ocasional planet or ship or the like being snuffed out, like the Imunity syndrome, Billions dead, etc. The universe is a cruel cruel thing, To close to a supernova, you get a gamma ray burst that burns your planet, and if you don't have SPF 1million, your crispy. Neutron star points it jet at you, dead, Black hole nearby, dead. Rouge planet or star through your star system that either rams your planet, or destroyes the orbits and you end up in your sun.. so Dead..
Von neuman machines pass thru your system, gobbling up everything, Dead ( Makes me think of those Arm robots from Lexx.. hehe)
In ships? Radiation burst, and one of your sheilds 10,000 parts goes ploink.. Dead. Your inertal dampeners have a hicupp while your at a 20 G accleration.. your now red paint on the aft wall, Dead.

As McCoy said
"Don't pander to me, kid. One tiny crack in the hull and our blood boils in thirteen seconds. Solar flare might crop up, cook us in our seats. And wait'll you're sitting pretty with a case of Andorian shingles, see if you're still so relaxed when your eyeballs are bleeding. Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence."

So there are 1001 dangers to ships, planets etc. that could happen in an episode, true not every episode has to have a planet or ship, or universe in the ballence. Some of the best episodes were Picard playing a flute, or Picard getting handsy with Vash, or Picard back in time with a Knife in his Heart. But Also the best were Mr, Space Amoeba, or the Paper Mache Cornucopia Cone of Death, or Few screws loose ultimate computer. Or how most of the time Mr. Redshirt doesn't last to the opeing credits.. Sometimes showing a death to show that, things are real/dangerous.

Maybe have an anthology show, and 1 episode shows someone making a part, but they make it like a 60's british car.. kinda, "Good Enough" and they show it being installed, and through the episode ocasionall go back and see it running, or even have engineering work on it, end of the show, it fails, causeing a 1 second power loss to the gravity and inertial dampeners, but there accelerating away from a planet at the time.. woops.. I mean, things happen every day.
 
SPOCK: The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
So Spock and McCoy established that the last so called world war on Earth is also known as the Eugenics Wars.
I take that exchange as McCpy correcting Spock on a mistake Spock just made. The wars in the mid 1990's were the eugenics wars (as McCoy said), and not the last world war (as Spock said).

Spock subsequently agrees with McCoy.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top