Kind of like how security footage in The Search for Spock was perfectly edited with close ups and everything during the dramatic moments.
The age of the antihero
- Thread starter Refuge
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Call me crazy, but I kind of just assumed it worked like in real life. You know, like, it's taken back to the estate and at some point within the next 6 months an executor processed the will and someone looked up Burnham's address. But I guess that's too complicated. Must have been an elaborate scheme by Saru involving magic and luck, and therefore a plot hole. That's much more logical.
With moral relativism/rationalizations like that this thread is sooo on the edge of Godwin's law.
Everyone I think innately knows the difference between bucking unfeeling bureaucracy for the sake of loyalty to a friend and simply being an unlikeable and unfeeling PRICK (like Lorca).
Very likely crew members are trained extensively, especially for emergencies. Also, those would have been personal effects belonging to someone else.
That doesn't make any sense. If Starfleet values personal effects, then necessarily they have to board every battle-damaged starship floating around ? They can simply tell the crewmen they are allowed to bring onboard the escape pod what they think has sentimental value for them. Is that like rocket science ?
I'm sure one can imagine anything about this, but logically crew members would at most bring their own personal effects. And given the point that the ship was not destroyed, then they would have prioritized anything that they could not destroy and that would be advantageous to the enemy. The last thing they would probably do is to bring along personal effects that belong to someone else.
Who said about carrying it for others ? I never said Starfleet demanded its crewmen to recover the personal effects of other crewmen. Besides, Jesus, this is the future. There's technology that's actually made for the whole purpose of carrying heavy objects around, you know ? I think Saru is a big boy and he can manage to carry that Telescope on his own.
I'm sure there's such technology, but we barely see it being utilized in any of the shows or movies. Of course, one is free to hedge (again) and claim that barring such technologies, one can always rely on "big boys" to carry anything. That probably leads you to prove that that's what Saru actually did. Or maybe you can just use common sense and say that the telescope, which was found in a very secure container, was recovered later.
I'm sure they do, but I think that level of organization involves priorities, including destroying or rendering unusable critical devices that the enemy might use. In which case, they would have set some sort of self-destruct mechanism to render things like the power core inoperable. Personal effects of those who are live would come next. The effects of those who are dead might probably be recovered later.
Because they were in a midst of a major battle, and the first thing that they value besides their own personal effects and of others is their lives. The last thing that they would try to bring with them are personal belongings that belong to those who are already dead. That's why when crews abandon ship, many of such effects remain on board. Priorities dictate that they stay alive as long as possible, and if there is time destroy or damage important things that might give the enemy an advantage (such as encryption devices for transmitting coded messages). If they have any personal effects, such as images in memory chips, then they can easily bring them. Anything else they can hope to recover later.
Probably small components whose removal or damage would have rendered the power core inoperable, and probably chips containing code used to encrypt and decrypt classified information between ships and bases.
My understanding is that STD takes place only a decade before TOS, which means it involves combinations of military operations, colonization, administration, and commerce. And if it is implied in the show that they only had a limited number of ships, then that would have made training for battle and even trying to avoid a war important.
Given these, I think you're talking about another show.
Star Fleet most likely used encryption systems that were different from what the Klingons used. Breaking such codes would have been very important in gaining information on ship and base locations, levels of resources available for various operations, etc.
As for gaining advantage, this does not necessarily refer to things that Klingons don't have but may use, such as power cores.
The fact that you refer to them as "small[,] worthless details" proves my point!
That way I will start calling Saru's taste for blueberries a plot hole too. What the hell do they meant by that scene ? When we first saw Saru he didn't look like someone who ate blueberries. How did he acquired that taste ? I demand an hour long sequence explaining it.
Now, you're understanding my argument. If the recovery of the telescope and the dead captain's message is "small" and "worthless," then there was no point in depicting that scene or even recovering the dead captain's personal effects. Unless it is true that Yeoh will return to the series through flashbacks, with the intention of developing the backstory between Michael and her former superior.
"I served with Georgiou god knows how many years, I'm very sad because of her passing, I can run like hell and I have superior physical strenght... But you know what ? Fuck all those personal belongings of my dear Captain. I'm outta here" - Saru, probably
Makes sense.
I felt the same thing! And because the backstory of Michael and Georgieu was hardly developed, it looked awkward. I would have used it as a cold open for future episodes involving flashbacks that develop that story.
Unless they care about that someone else. And we're talking about a Captain. Captains generally are adored by the people who serve under them and Georgiou seemed like a nice person. Not only Saru and her senior officers had motivations to carry her stuff around to honor her, the entire Shenzhou crew probably had.
If you pay attention very closely to Star Trek, there's this thing they use now and then called a Transporter... It's very handy when you want to move objects from one position to the other.
By the way, there's Anti-gravs in Star Trek too.
Common sense is believing Starfleet during wartime would do something pointless as redirecting Starships from the battlefront to board derelict ships with nothing crucial to the war inside them, in an area controlled by the Klingons ? Or you could, you know, just assume the evacuees took these objects with them to their pods. Why do you feel the need to complicate matters ?
There were no critical devices onboard the Shenzhou.
Some people, yeah, would just run for their lives. You never heard of people literally dying by going back inside their homes during a fire to save their personal effects, though ? Humans are emotional. No training in the world can change that.
Oh, yeah, I'm sure old peacetime Federation encryption devices were not decoded a long time ago by every hostile faction in the Quadrant. It's not like the last war the Federation fought was one hundred years prior to DSC. It's not like the entire premise of DSC is that the Federation wasn't focusing on military tech at all before the war either...
Again, even if the Shenzhou crew had clairvoyance to predict some Klingons would use that power core to not starve to death, what the hell would be gained by doing that ?
Military operations ? Training for war ?
I'm certain the confused Shenzhou crewman screaming "We're explorers" just before getting sucked into the vacuum of space had some extensive war training. Yeah, I don't think we're talking about the same show here. The whole point of Star Trek is that the Federation is supposed to be a pacifist entity.That's why the main BSG ship was made to launch fighter jets and the main ST ships contained ugly wonky exploratory pods. The day Star Trek protagonists are fighter jet pilots and not hippie explorers, then, you will have all the arguments in the world to say Star Trek is about "military operations" and "war training". Until then, I still think you're confusing two different TV Shows.
In other words, the Federation did not have any superior type of technology in relation to the Klingons besides the Spore Drive...
It doesn't. The types of plot holes that are generally heavily criticized in Star Trek are not the small details you're obsessing about, they're some story breaking stuff like the infinite Shuttlecrafts Voyager carries around or those damned reset buttons they pressed after the end of every episode.
Every scene needs to be intrinsically explained beforehand, then ? So everytime we have a guest in a Star Trek ship, you need to show them getting beamed into the transporter room, otherwise the audience would be confused by the means that guest arrived there ?
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It wasn't controlled by the Klingons. Starfleet and the Klingons ignored that binary star system for six months.
"What you call your most remote borders, I call too close to Klingon territory." This was pretty much the basis of the whole war. The Klingons wiped out Starfleet there and kept them fighting for 6 months, and the border is constantly moving. It's pretty obvious that this is now Klingon territory.
As I said earlier, you can create all sorts of stories to explain what happened, but unless they are expressed, then you have to follow what makes the most sense. In this case, the crew acted as they would in such an emergency, and the container was recovered later.
If you pay attention very closely to Star Trek, there's this thing they use now and then called a Transporter... It's very handy when you want to move objects from one position to the other.
They were used in the show to transport something that would allow the protagonists to win or that was critical for their survival, not to develop whatever love stories you imagine.
From what I remember, the scenes in any of the shows that did involve such emergencies involved crew members carrying whatever was needed for the escape pods. There were no efforts to call the transporter room to beam their personal belongings or to use other devices.
Why not? This took place in various wars in real history. And I recall that it was mentioned in STD that they had limited ships.
It's common sense to believe that such vessels used encryption devices to transmit classified information, that many devices are critical for their continued operation, and that others may be used by the enemy for their advantage. That includes power cores.
You mean non-humans going back to recover personal effects belonging to someone else, right? And where is this evidence showing that Saru "literally" died?
So much for complicating matters!
First, you claim that such ships have no critical devices, but now you do, except that they were decoded by "every hostile faction". Any evidence for that?
Because clairvoyance is not involved.
Military operations ? Training for war ?
Except that it's not, as the various shows reveal.
You must be referring to another universe. You do realize that the main ships featured prominently in the shows and movies are armed?
Hippie explorers? So that explains the love story fantasies you've been concocting!
Critical devices don't refer to superior types of technology, just resources that the enemy may use for their advantage. Now that is not rocket science.
It's not a small detail because you've been taking so much effort trying to explain it away.
And you're always free to refer to what you think are the other plot holes in STD.
No. Rather, every scene has to make sense. Otherwise, it has to be explained.
In this case, viewers are confronted by what you think is a small detail but actually an important one because it attempts to develop the relationship between Burnham and Georgie. The problem is that it is left hanging, and it involves Burnham receiving a container that I think only she could open that contained a telescope and a final message from Georgie. (Presumably, that backstory will be developed later, but I would have used the telescope scene as a cold open leading to a flashback.)
Likely, the captain prepared it beforehand, and was recovered later. The power core and anything else that could still be used by Starfleet was not. There's the plot hole.
So far, you've been trying to explain this way by arguing that Saru recovered the container and that the power core was not recovered because Starfleet could not imagine that the Klingons needed it. The first is too fantastic to believe (unless it is developed in a future episode through a flashback) and the second makes no sense at all.
Why? While there would surely have been some overall urgency to the evacuation, given that other enemy ships could theoretically have shown up at any time, for the moment the sarcophagus ship was the only one left, and it was in no position to mount an immediate counter-attack. There's no suggestion the evacuation would need to have been a particularly rushed or chaotic one, rather than orderly and organized. Why shouldn't people have had time, and been allowed, to grab a few limited personal effects under those circumstances?
Now that's silly. (As was your earlier suggestion that they should have gone back again to try to take prisoners.) How could they have done that? The ship, though disabled, was swarming with Klingons. And Shenzhou was equally disabled. That would be a ridiculous risk to take, especially given how their previous boarding attempt had just gone.
It actually would make a lot of sense that she'd been preparing to do exactly that right before being convinced her to try Burnham's plan, since up to that point she had been intending a solo suicide mission in a worker bee. But the telescope is still mounted in the window at the point she hits on the idea of mining the corpse, so it would have to have been between then and the following scene in the transporter room where she'd already told Saru to meet them with the warhead. (Conveniently, there is an intervening commercial break and the beginning of a scene aboard the Klingon ship, so it is possible. It's not as if it would take a lot of time to unbolt it and stick it in a carrying case, especially if she already had the latter standing by.)
That doesn't make any sense at all. What reason is there to think this? Why do people still keep suggesting it? (Unless you meant "later" in the sense of "after Georgiou's death, but before the evacuation.")
Not really. The decision to abandon ship was apparently made subsequent to Burnham's return to Shenzhou, as Georgiou originally thought they'd be able to get at least the impulse engines working again and withdraw while she departed on her proposed kamikaze mission. Evidently that was re-evaluated after her death. The telescope was a small, easily portable item. The dilithium processor was not, because it had to be removed by a complex and delicate procedure with great danger of it blowing up in one's face at the slightest misstep. (And hey, that gives me an idea: maybe they left it there deliberately as a booby trap? Voq did say there wasn't anything else left worth taking, didn't he?)
-MMoM
@ralfy has adequately addressed these issues.
I've just now reviewed the pertinent scenes, and I still don't see how.
The telescope was Georgiou's most prized possession, a precious family heirloom. Neither Saru nor Burnham would want it left behind. They would want it returned to her family. Neither expected to later receive it themselves. After being processed at Starfleet Command, it was packaged and sent to Burnham through Starfleet's internal mail system in accordance with Georgiou's will, as indicated by the labels and attached message. That's why the case was coded for Burnham. There was no apparent obstacle to its being taken during the evacuation. It was not particularly bulky—and would be even less so without that case, which again I now see was just how Burnham later received it, there isn't even any need for what I said earlier about Georgiou packaging it herself between scenes—and the evacuation did not seem to be overly hasty. There is zero indication it was retrieved at a later time.
-MMoM
Wait, what ? So the transporters only work for things and in situations the writers decide they should ? If they are shown to transport all types of objects in a certain range they do transport all objects in a certain range. There's no more to it. No mental gymnastics can change that.
"We never saw anything else that doesn't resemble a Connie in TOS, therefore, all ships belonging to that Era must look like a Connie"
Ah, yes! All those times when the British parachuted thousands of soldiers on France before D-Day so they could recover some outdated French encryption code. Yes, yes, wasting manpower and resources to venture inside enemy territory to capture useless garbage is a common phenomenon in recorded History.
I don't remember any line like that in DSC. Even if that's true, what you're saying is: Let's destroy the only few ships we have to recover unredeemable dead ships inside Klingon territory. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
All non-Humans in Star Trek are cold hearted bastards like the Vulcans ? Just because Saru is an Alien it doesn't mean he isn't sentimental.
You missed the point. I meant people risk their lives for objects that are dear for them or the people they love. They don't need to "literally die".
If they are decoded they aren't critical. The evidence is that the Federation always puts its priorities in peace time tech in the Prime Timeline and the Encryption Device is a wartime tech. That's why we have an entire Kelvin Timeline Movie dedicated to the thought of what would happen if the Federation was more dedicated to war tech. That was the point of Yesterday's Enterprise too. Like I said, you're confusing stuff like Starship Troopers with Star Trek.
How the hell would they predict there would be a bunch of starving Klingons on those ships and that they would solve the situation by getting the power core of one of their ships ? Even if they did predict that, what is gained by preventing starving people from dying ? Are they sadistic or what ?
Ah, yes! I remember Kirk's monologue from TOS:
"Space, the final crusade. These are the battles of the warship Enterprise. Its five year mission: To enslave strange new worlds. To destroy new life forms and whole civilizations. To boldly conquer what no ubermensch has conquered before!"
There's also that time Picard decided to genocide the Borg, Sisko decided to kill the prophets so they couldn't create any more wormholes connecting to Dominion space and those times Voyager pillaged planets in the Delta Quadrant for resources. How I could've forgot all those moments that show us that the Federation is definitely not a Pacifist Entity ?
Having guns means you don't believe in peace ? Just because you believe in pacifist ideals it doesn't mean you're not allowed to defend yourself. That's why Gandhi is a National Hero in India but the Indians still have a Military. Are they dishonoring him or what ? I don't think so.
Kirk is an idealist that doesn't believe in defeat, is concerned half of the time with his romantic life and gives inspirational speeches all the time.
Picard believes in ethics above all, often tries to solve problems using philosophy, has the soul of an artist and sought out the origin of life as we knew it.
Janeway considers the people around her a family and had more patience with annoying highly advanced energy beings than any other ST Captain, even tried to save them.
Sisko is literally a new age religious figure, even if he doesn't want to.
Now, I don't know about you, but these characters archetypes sound more like "Hippie explorer" to me than "sociopath soldier who solves all problems at gunpoint".
This Klingon War isn't about resources. How hard it is to understand that ? Maybe if you weren't hate-watching DISCO you would've understood that a long time ago.
Since people are engaging in pedantry, I'm taking my time to engage in it too. If you want to be ridiculous let's be ridiculous, then.
The telescope scene is a small detail about Georgiou and Michael's relationship if compared to the first two episodes. There was even a long flashback scene about the time Michael first arrived at the Shenzhou, but hey, let's consider the short telescope scene as important as those!
Well, thank the Gods you're not in charge of DISCO then.
Because a flashback scene at that moment would not only be boring as hell but would screw up the entire rhythm of the episode.
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The escape pods had to have been picked up by Starfleet ships. Unless you want to suggest they made it to the next Federation installation on their own.
Burnham and/or Saru would have relaid the information regarding the sarcophagus ship, the people on it and the cloaking tech it contains to the officers on the rescue ships. Starfleet would have then made an effort to get their hands on that tech. Which would not have been that hard, as the Klingons would not show up for another six months in that binary star system.
But, it would have required some competent writing. Either to avoid that plot hole or to create a satisfying solution to it.
But what does any of that have to do with the telescope, though?
And you seem to continue to overlook that the location of the sarcophagus ship and Shenzhou's wreck would now be behind the enemy lines.
That is a common setting of war, going into another's territory. It's going to be someone's territory, I mean if they all remained in their own and or kept their weapons at 'home' it wouldn't be much of a war. Starfleet going into enemy territory (especially if it used to be theirs) isn't an outrageous expectation.
This bloody telescope was either thrown into an escape pod during evacuation, likely by someone who felt its significance beyond their own necessities. Saru seems to be the only candidate that the story has hinted at (and that's a bit of a stretch anyway). Frankly when Michael gives him the telescope later he seemed so touched in his memory of it that for me at least, it cancels out the thought he had fairly recently nursed it to safety in the first place. I mean really? They have to evacuate and he's fussing over a telescope??
Other option it was retrieved later. The will is viewed and someone goes - hey where's this blessed telescope? Oi you, go and fetch it!
This bloody telescope was either thrown into an escape pod during evacuation, likely by someone who felt its significance beyond their own necessities. Saru seems to be the only candidate that the story has hinted at (and that's a bit of a stretch anyway). Frankly when Michael gives him the telescope later he seemed so touched in his memory of it that for me at least, it cancels out the thought he had fairly recently nursed it to safety in the first place. I mean really? They have to evacuate and he's fussing over a telescope??
Other option it was retrieved later. The will is viewed and someone goes - hey where's this blessed telescope? Oi you, go and fetch it!
The question is, could such an effort be mounted, and would it be considered worth the risk? My impression was that the Klingons basically had Starfleet on the run from that initial battle up until Discovery got the spore drive working properly and turned the tide.
Yes. That's exactly what I think happened. And no one has yet given a satisfactory answer as to why the circumstances actually shown would preclude it.
Why? He cared about Georgiou just as much as Burnham did.
And why not Michael herself? Georgiou had apparently allowed her to resume her duties before they went to the sarcophagus ship. She wouldn't have been arrested again until after they were picked up by another ship. She might even have been acting captain up to that point. She could have ordered anyone to grab it (although I think she would have done it herself).
For like the millionth time, there is no reason to think that this happened. It's an entirely unsupported suggestion, and only introduces further "plot holes" that aren't otherwise present. It doesn't make sense, and I can't see any reason to believe it was intended.
-MMoM
