TBBS and treatment of women

[Jenee]

Robert's original post was written in the hopes that people would show some respect to other posters on the BBS. I don't think that is going to happen if people who try to express their feelings are ridiculed, goaded and insulted for entertainment purposes.

If you have a different opinion that one that's posted, it doesn't give you the right to shoot a person down for fun. Until attitudes about respect are changed, until people realize we are NOT all the same, we all come from different backgrounds with different histories that make us who we are, until popcorn eating icons are no longer posted, until the gang mentality of picking on the one lone guy stops, i think many people will think twice about expressing their feelings.

What happened in this tread was sadly ironic.

I hope this wasn't because of my response to An Officer. I realize we're all different - that was kinda my point with the references to Brad Pitt and Daniel Radcliffe.

But, I'm also not going to sit by and watch someone like RJ be bullied into acknowleging something that people of our generation dismissed a long time ago.

This website is probably the tamest website out there and some still want to complain that someone has said something they don't like.

 

[Switch]

I would have enjoyed it a lot more if it had opened some minds.

Coming from one of the most obnoxiously closed-minded posters on the board, this is all kinds of ironic.

 

[Niorah]

But, I'm also not going to sit by and watch someone like RJ be bullied into acknowleging something that people of our generation dismissed a long time ago.

Which is?

We are not talking about the comings and goings of average conversation, where one can come across as rude or polite according to what they say. We are talking about sexism and creepiness. If those have indeed been dismissed a long time ago, then the situation is sad to say the least.
Because as Yeoman Randi said, and as -I- said in my very first post in this thread, and others also brought up, including T'Bonz, it -is- a matter of respect.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Robert's original post was written in the hopes that people would show some respect to other posters on the BBS. I don't think that is going to happen if people who try to express their feelings are ridiculed, goaded and insulted for entertainment purposes.

If you have a different opinion that one that's posted, it doesn't give you the right to shoot a person down for fun. Until attitudes about respect are changed, until people realize we are NOT all the same, we all come from different backgrounds with different histories that make us who we are, until popcorn eating icons are no longer posted, until the gang mentality of picking on the one lone guy stops, i think many people will think twice about expressing their feelings.

What happened in this tread was sadly ironic.

I hope this wasn't because of my response to An Officer. I realize we're all different - that was kinda my point with the references to Brad Pitt and Daniel Radcliffe.

But, I'm also not going to sit by and watch someone like RJ be bullied into acknowleging something that people of our generation dismissed a long time ago.

This website is probably the tamest website out there and some still want to complain that someone has said something they don't like.

No, actually it wasn't. My post was something i've been thinking about for the last couple of days.

I think you know how much i love you. Right?

 

[Jenee]

But, I'm also not going to sit by and watch someone like RJ be bullied into acknowleging something that people of our generation dismissed a long time ago.

Which is?

We are not talking about the comings and goings of average conversation, where one can come across as rude or polite according to what they say. We are talking about sexism and creepiness. If those have indeed been dismissed a long time ago, then the situation is sad to say the least.
Because as Yeoman Randi said, and as -I- said in my very first post in this thread, and others also brought up, including T'Bonz, it -is- a matter of respect.

That's the thing tho. This isn't sexism. Sexism is being treated special (good or bad) because of your sex.

Sexism is not getting a job because you're a woman - or worse, getting a job and being expected to ... behave or perform certain functions because A) you're a woman or B) you should be grateful you got the job.

Sexism is having to wear a dress or skirt in the middle of fucking winter!

Sexism is having to be dependent on your father or husband for all of life's necessities.

No woman born after 1980 has lived in a world where sexism is prevalent. They've all been treated like princesses by their parents and think the entire world should treat them as such.

No women here are being treated any differently than women treat men. I know you've participated in the sexy man avatar week we've had in the past. If you only did it to 'get back' at men here, you completely missed the point of the exercize.

I hope this wasn't because of my response to An Officer. ....

No, actually it wasn't. My post was something i've been thinking about for the last couple of days.

I think you know how much i love you. Right?

I do. I just wanted to be sure so I could clarify. Love you too and wanted to make sure we're good.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Jen: Cool!

I don't necessarily share all of your opinions on everything, nor would i expect you to agree with all of mine. But that we can acknowledge that we think differently on some matters, and still be respectful of each other, not ridicule each other for those varying opinons and STILL have this great flourishing friendship that i have been enjoying very much despite those different opinions... is how it should be. I actually think you and i are a very good example of how "it" should be.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The way some people have been going at Christina Aguilera for mixing up a few words in a song, you would think she killed a child LIVE on stage or something.

There is a strong and nasty undercurrent of envy that feeds almost all such criticism of celebrity performers, particularly young ones - and the folks who protest loudest that this has no part in their formulation of such vituperative or dismissive opinions tend simply to be the least self-aware or capable of being honest with themselves.

 

[Deckerd]

The way some people have been going at Christina Aguilera for mixing up a few words in a song, you would think she killed a child LIVE on stage or something.

There is a strong and nasty undercurrent of envy that feeds almost all such criticism of celebrity performers, particularly young ones - and the folks who protest loudest that this has no part in their formulation of such vituperative or dismissive opinions tend simply to be the least self-aware or capable of being honest with themselves.

I don't think that's particularly sexist though, and from what you're saying neither do you. What was sexist was the mass national hysteria when Janet Jackson accidentally exposed a nipple. That was disrespectful to all women as well as being institutionalised sexism at its worst.

 

[Jenee]

Jen: Cool!

I don't necessarily share all of your opinions on everything, nor would i expect you to agree with all of mine. But that we can acknowledge that we think differently on some matters, and still be respectful of each other, not ridicule each other for those varying opinons and STILL have this great flourishing friendship that i have been enjoying very much despite those different opinions... is how it should be. I actually think you and i are a very good example of how "it" should be.

I agree. {{hugs}}

 

[Niorah]

That's the thing tho. This isn't sexism. Sexism is being treated special (good or bad) because of your sex.

Sexism is not getting a job because you're a woman - or worse, getting a job and being expected to ... behave or perform certain functions because A) you're a woman or B) you should be grateful you got the job.

Sexism is having to wear a dress or skirt in the middle of fucking winter!

Sexism is having to be dependent on your father or husband for all of life's necessities.

You are right, sometimes the fact that English is my second language doesn't help me carry the point across in the correct way.

What you are talking about is in fact sexism, with an accent on occupational sexism. What I am talking about is degradation and objectification, both as sexual objectification and denial of subjectivity ( when one is treated as if there is no need to show concern for the "object's" feelings and experiences). And it is topped with creepiness.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

NIORAH: What you said! Perfect!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The way some people have been going at Christina Aguilera for mixing up a few words in a song, you would think she killed a child LIVE on stage or something.

There is a strong and nasty undercurrent of envy that feeds almost all such criticism of celebrity performers, particularly young ones - and the folks who protest loudest that this has no part in their formulation of such vituperative or dismissive opinions tend simply to be the least self-aware or capable of being honest with themselves.

I don't think that's particularly sexist though, and from what you're saying neither do you. What was sexist was the mass national hysteria when Janet Jackson accidentally exposed a nipple. That was disrespectful to all women as well as being institutionalised sexism at its worst.

What was sexist about it was going after her on the basis of being a woman. Criticize her performance, fine. I don't see any problem with that. Start insulting her based on her gender, though, and how can that be anything but sexist? The undercurrent is one of, "she's a woman, of course she fucked it up."

 

[Deckerd]

I didn't hear the sexist comments, so I can't really comment on them. In the UK all was reported was that she fluffed the lines and the media reaction in the US was out of all proportion to the 'crime'. One person commented, quite validly, that all the extra notes she added did nothing for her rendition or the song.

 

[Jenee]

That's the thing tho. This isn't sexism. Sexism is being treated special (good or bad) because of your sex.

Sexism is not getting a job because you're a woman - or worse, getting a job and being expected to ... behave or perform certain functions because A) you're a woman or B) you should be grateful you got the job.

Sexism is having to wear a dress or skirt in the middle of fucking winter!

Sexism is having to be dependent on your father or husband for all of life's necessities.

You are right, sometimes the fact that English is my second language doesn't help me carry the point across in the correct way.

What you are talking about is in fact sexism, with an accent on occupational sexism. What I am talking about is degradation and objectification, both as sexual objectification and denial of subjectivity ( when one is treated as if there is no need to show concern for the "object's" feelings and experiences). And it is topped with creepiness.

I understand that - and my first instinct is to agree. But, I have to then look at myself, my own thoughts and my own behavior.

I do like to look at men and most of the time without any thought to his intelligence or personal feelings. I only care about what he looks like and, in my fantasies, he can 'be' anyone I want him to be. Is that hurtful to him? Does it do him any harm? Even if I said something to him, does it make him any less of a person than he already is?

What I feel is degrading are strip clubs - and the signs out front. "Beer on tap, rock music on the sound system and naked girls on the dance floor"

As if they're nothing more than a commodity.

To me, that's objectification and degradation.

Putting up a photo on an internet message board and expecting someone not to compliment it - even to extremes because we're all different - is, to me, a very naive and very "princess-like" attitude.

You can't make people behave the way you want them to. You either accept people are different and scroll past the posts you don't like, or end up agrophobic and ... internet-phobic and never interact with other people again.

 

[Neroon]

I didn't hear the sexist comments, so I can't really comment on them. In the UK all was reported was that she fluffed the lines and the media reaction in the US was out of all proportion to the 'crime'. One person commented, quite validly, that all the extra notes she added did nothing for her rendition or the song.

Which is how most of my friends and myself saw it. The over-singing continued a trend that so many folks find bothersome and distracting. When she committed the actual flub in the lyrics, frustrations that had been pent up spilled out. It also didn't help that Ms. Aguilera (sp?) does not have the best image to begin with, so I can see where many folks' criticism of her got more than a little out of hand.

 

[Kestra]

I enjoyed it.

I would have enjoyed it a lot more if it had opened some minds. Unfortunately, these are the same arguments I was having with my Irish Catholic family 35 years ago.

I was trying to be lighthearted and move on. Unfortunately, you felt the need to get one more comment in there where you can laugh at everyone's closemindedness. Congrats, you win. Trying to discuss anything with you is so frustrating I basically stopped trying to post anything meaningful in this thread.

 

[Niorah]

Jenee, I do believe that people are different, and I do believe that there is a profound difference between the two genders. Some of it is genetic, some of it is cultural, you know, both nature and nurture. I also do believe men should be gentlemen, or at least strive to be.

I mean no offense to you directly by saying this, it is a general remark about the attitude instead, which is what we (as a community, albeit an internet one) should be tackling: when you say

Even if I said something to him, does it make him any less of a person than he already is?

I can tell you that from my point of view, it doesn't make -him- any less of a person, it makes -you- (general you) less of a person.
My attitude may sound very idealistic and utopian, but everything is a utopia until somebody decides that it is time to give it a good try. Really, it's just respect. I know I sound like a broken record, but it is what it is. And yes, I know I am not perfect and I indulge (quite rarely) in the ogling of celebrities, I won't set myself up as a paragon. It doesn't mean I don't strive to better myself though.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I think it's time for a drummer's choice.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEmO-Rr4tFA[/yt]

 

[Deckerd]

I would have enjoyed it a lot more if it had opened some minds.

Coming from one of the most obnoxiously closed-minded posters on the board, this is all kinds of ironic.

There's a name for people who come onto a thread for the sole purpose of flaming another poster, without adding anything to the conversation. That name is Switch, apparently.

 

[Jenee]

Jenee, I do believe that people are different, and I do believe that there is a profound difference between the two genders. Some of it is genetic, some of it is cultural, you know, both nature and nurture. I also do believe men should be gentlemen, or at least strive to be.

I mean no offense to you directly by saying this, it is a general remark about the attitude instead, which is what we (as a community, albeit an internet one) should be tackling: when you say

Even if I said something to him, does it make him any less of a person than he already is?

I can tell you that from my point of view, it doesn't make -him- any less of a person, it makes -you- (general you) less of a person.
My attitude may sound very idealistic and utopian, but everything is a utopia until somebody decides that it is time to give it a good try. Really, it's just respect. I know I sound like a broken record, but it is what it is. And yes, I know I am not perfect and I indulge (quite rarely) in the ogling of celebrities, I won't set myself up as a paragon. It doesn't mean I don't strive to better myself though.

I also believe there there is a profound difference in the sexes - this is where RJ and I differ. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus.

I understand (I don't agree, but I understand) your position about not treating people like objects. I don't think it makes more or anyone else less of a person - and no, I didn't take offense. But, that's one of the things that makes everyone different.

The most we can ask for, then, is when someone crosses the line with you (general you), perhaps you (again, general you) should let them know that that sort of talk is not ok with you - not an "OMG, you dirty pervert!", just an "I'm not really ok with that kind of talk directed at me, thankyouverymuch".

I have had men here say as much to me and I respect that and haven't crossed that line with them again - I don't think. Sometimes I forget - and I'm sure some of those men will also - it's a fairly big board and over the years ... we forget who said what and where which boundaries are for some.

OTOH, I would also like to say to those who do like to banter in a way that someone dislikes that you respect their choice, don't get offended and curb your behavior towards that person who asked you to do so. It's not difficult. Many others are just as willing to engage.