TBBS and treatment of women

[Shatnertage]

On a serious note then, the truth of the matter is that there isn't a solution.

Never has been, never will be.

But... but... it's star trek... and there's always a solution.. for everything.

TOS: Kirk talks the creepy posters to death

TNG: Picard will pontificate about how he, too, was once a creepy poster, which will inspire creepy posters to become more evolved.

DS9: Sisko will look stern as Garak secretly bans the creepy posters--"You knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing."

VOY: B'Elanna and the Doctor will use Seven's nanoprobes to genetically modify the creepy posters so they're no longer creepy. Janeway gets to fire them from a Really Big Gun.

ENT: Archer will threaten the creepy posters with the airlock. Or will let Porthos pee on them to show his displeasure.

 

[T'Bonz]

It's also easy for Bon to pop in and give a final ruling. If she sees a notification for a post she believes needs a warning, rest assured she lets us know.

Yeah, she's a typical woman like that.
I keed, I keed...

Me, typical?

Damn, I am failing somewhere...

 

[Alidar Jarok]

What you're suggesting isn't going to change anything. People only hit notify if something is big enough and obvious enough to complain about.

Buttons are black&white things. To press or not to press. Problem or no problem. People don't notify the small stuff because the process of typing in an explanation on the notify form will always feel disproportionate to whatever the incident it.

I think I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that it's too small to notify, but a moderator is supposed to notice it and act on it.

Now I think there are ways a moderator can improve things, but only with cost. To truly and effectively do this job without flaws, it would have to be a full time commitment. I think there are things mods do that can help, but none of us have the time to be perfect.

However, if a person is unwilling to notify on what they think is a small issue, I can offer a compromise. I won't speak for other moderators, but if they want to send me a PM whenever something bothers them, I'm willing to either discuss it in the BR for them or document everything so it's much easier for the moderators of a forum to make a final decision. I can't promise drastic action to change the culture (especially since I'm not exactly a moderator of a high profile forum), but I can promise to at least be an ear for the problems even when I haven't seen them.

 

[mimic]

The web in general is not a very friendly place for women. Hank Green gave an interesting answer to the question "Why are male youtubers more popular than female youtubers?" (scroll down a bit and click on the question) that I think can apply here. In general women get appraised for their looks a lot more readily than our male counterparts. I mean, it's awkward for good looking women, but lord forbid if you dare to be female and overweight.

As far as avatars go, there are at least two on this board that bother me.

 

[iguana_tonante]

So - here is my solution. If you think someone is crossing the line, hit the mod notify (even if the post is not directly aimed at you.)

This is probably the only sensible thing we can do. We can't censor thoughts or intent, but at the same time we can notify problematic posts and have the staff deal with them in whatever way they find appropriate, instead of just cringing and then shrug it off because "it's not my problem".

 

[RJDiogenes]

Let me see where we are: "bitch" is OK because it was used by your own mother? "Tramp" is OK as it's an 80's pop song as far as you're concerned? Plus, you are not really sure if "tramp" is a bad word anyway. Do you have a wife? Do you have a daughter? How would you feel if they were referred to as such?

I have all sorts of female relatives and friends. Probably 85% of the people I've been personally involved with in my life have been women, most of them medical or other professional women with multiple degrees and a wide variety of life experiences. The vast majority of them would find the complaints in this Thread silly and would be offended at the idea that women need to be treated with kid gloves.

I know it's OK with you, RJ, you've made yourself clear on this issue whenever it has come up. If you had been reading this topic however, you might have found it useful to notice it is not okay with many men and women, past and present.

Gay marriage isn't okay with many men and women, past and present, too. So what? Wrong is wrong.

I had imagined a mod's job is to think of the well-being of the community as a whole, rather than whether it's okay with them personally.

And I do. I don't think indulging immature attitudes toward sex and chauvinistic beliefs are beneficial to any community.

I usually have a lot of respect for you RJ, as you know, but I am really taken aback by how dismissive and insensitive you are being on this issue. It has been raised so many times by a number of people. Surely there is something to it. Are all the complainers having a mass delusion?

I think civilization evolves only very slowly.

There is a hostile atmosphere for women, at times. Is this so hard to understand? Are you really implying we should match ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I am sorry if action on creeps and sexists seems last century to you, last time I checked, that kind of thing was still unacceptable in the civilised world.

Nope, I already said that unwanted personal advances or interactions should be dealt with. Nobody disagrees with that. What is wrong is the idea that sexuality is sexism, that the mere mention of anything remotely sexual is automatically hostile to women. That is misogynistic.

When I was on the staff here, I mentioned one time that it would be good to have a female moderator in misc, and with the above two paragraphs in mind, I believe that person would need to be given some free reign, if the status quo is to be challenged and a new equilibrium become established.

Now there's a totally sexist idea.

I grew up in the era of Women's Lib, when women were struggling hard to be seen as the equal of men. They didn't want to be treated as second-class citizens or the weaker sex. The idea that Misc should have divans for maidens to faint upon at hearing off-color comments by uncouth males would have pissed them off, and it pisses me off. The backward politics of this century boggles my mind.

No one's saying we're maidens that can't handle hearing a few words. It's about asking for a bit more respect and consideration in some areas.

Please explain what you mean so I'll know how to respond.

It's not just judging her attractiveness, it's sizing her up like a piece of meat, criticizing all her various features--yeah, I've seen exactly that in the "babe" threads. It's sick and it would be nice if people kept such garbage to themselves. I don't think mods should issue infractions for it, I just wish people had some sense of decency and consideration.

Seriously? Beauty contests are sick? You know, this is one reason I always made a point to participate in, and occasionally host, auntiehill's Hunk Threads-- to set an example of grown up behavior. It's no different to appreciate, and vote on, somebody's physical attributes than it is their poetry or their singing or their photo captions. As I said before, this idea of putting sexuality in a strange little box where the normal rules don't apply is just Medieval.

By using the word "tits" the way you did...it just doesn't seem in keeping with what you are trying to say. Please don't be upset with me, i am not trying to 'call you out' on this. I'm just saying.

Good grief, now "tits" creates a hostile environment for women? That will surprise all the hundreds of millions of women who use it freely.

Otherwise, many of the comments here make me wonder what century I'm in. It seems that a lot of people here actually believe that men and women are different species or something; the most sexist comments are the ones coming from people who think they are complaining about sexism. Boys locker room mentality? Are you kidding me?

That's an unhelpful attitude. You obviously feel that you're enlightened and those who disagree aren't, but that is a wrong attitude and frankly, you come off a bit arrogant and smug in saying so.

I don't understand what's unhelpful, especially since you cut off the part of my post where I made my point. Is it unhelpful to expect people to be mature? Is it unhelpful to expect women to be equal? I don't get it.

I should point out that we don't expect mods to read every post in their forum. This is a volunteer position, after all, and reading every post in some forums would be the equivalent of a part-time job.

Just reading this Thread is a full-time job.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Oops, I almost forgot. I always like to include this in this type of Thread:

 

[Trekker4747]

Oops, I almost forgot. I always like to include this in this type of Thread:

This

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

Been reading through this thread in last 24 hours, and do agree with treatment of women by some people. Seen many people leave, while myself I try to treat everyone with respect.

 

[tharpdevenport]

And then your butt falls off.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

RJ, not getting into whether you're right or wrong, I have noticed in the past, you never really take an effort to see the other viewpoint. Obviously, this thread wouldn't be 10+ pages every six months if there weren't legitimate concerns. I think you take a "equality means pretending distinctions and context doesn't matter", while I think there needs to be a more nuanced approach. Otherwise, the extreme end of your position would be like one poster, who feels that males exposing their chest is a double standard.

I really don't think either extreme is right. I also don't technically think right is what the answer is. It's a balance of viewpoints that the greatest amount of people can accept to encourage fun participation in this board and interesting discussion. Diversity of posters is an important aspect of this, so I always hate it when posters leave. But diversity of ways to express oneself is also an important goal. So the question isn't who is right on this issue, but how can we work this out to make most people happy.

 

[Lookingglassman]

I don't trust chicks so I don't kiss up to any of them here. That and the fact I am a fatty and no chicks here would even be remotely interested in me.

 

[Gryffindorian]

I think people take the Internet way too seriously, instead of just treating things with a grain of salt.

 

[tharpdevenport]

mrcoaster is "the naked moderator". That's offense. We'll just have ot ban mrcoaster (should he ever come back).

 

[Lookingglassman]

mrcoaster is "the naked moderator". That's offense. We'll just have ot ban mrcoaster (should he ever come back).

I'm offended by the little smiley face sticking out its tongue at me. I think it is trying to flirt with me!

 

[tharpdevenport]

mrcoaster is "the naked moderator". That's offense. We'll just have ot ban mrcoaster (should he ever come back).

I'm offended by the little smiley face sticking out its tongue at me. I think it is trying to flirt with me!

BAN THE SMILEY ICON!!!

 

[JarodRussell]

TBBS and treatment of women

This bothers me for a while now. And in general, the treatment of non members. I'm already quite sick of reading how other people are called dumb asses and fuck ups and whatnot. Were they members, it wouldn't be allowed. It's hypocrisy. That became apparent in the whole Chase Masterson thing.

 

[T'Bonz]

I don't understand what's unhelpful, especially since you cut off the part of my post where I made my point. Is it unhelpful to expect people to be mature? Is it unhelpful to expect women to be equal? I don't get it.

So wait, sexualizing everything is "mature?"

The problem is, RJ, you and I have different perceptions as to what is appropriate and what is not, and what is mature and what is not.

I don't consider some of what you find to be appropriate to be "mature." Your implication is that if women (or society) is not comfortable with a level of sexuality that you are, then we're immature.

Frankly, that's a load of rubbish. I accept that you have a higher tolerance for some things than I do, but that doesn't make your viewpoint any more (or any less) valid/correct.

Plus - you're on the "power" end of the equation. Try being a woman and being made to feel uncomfortable with unwanted attention. It. Sucks. It's not flattering or mature, it's, frankly, at times, unwanted and a pain in the ass.

Even women have differing levels of acceptance towards some of this behavior. No one, not even I, has all the answers or even the right answer. It's very annoying to hear you go on about maturity and how fucking Neanderthal we are because we don't all want to prance around naked or have the opposite sex leering at us, etc. You and I have had this discussion before and nothing has changed. You feel that those who are not as uninhibited as you are immature and that kind of attitude makes me very, very, angry, as a woman.

Maturity is considering that others have different viewpoints towards the issue and trying to be as accommodating as is possible towards the feelings of others. It doesn't mean belittling others because they don't feel the same way that you do.

*

What I'm trying to do on the BBS is find a bit of a middle ground, where most will be comfortable. We can never please everyone, but we need to keep a majority happy as best we can. That is all we can do.

People need to be civil, treating other posters as if they are cherished people worthy of respect. Given that this is the Internet, regrettably that's a bit of a dream. But if people thought of more than themselves when they posted, they could save the rest of us a lot of grief.

 

[mimic]

I'm offended by the little smiley face sticking out its tongue at me. I think it is trying to flirt with me!

BAN THE SMILEY ICON!!!

^Yes, let's mock legitimate concerns with hyperbole.

For the record? The janitor at work the other day told me "You look good in jeans," which would have been fine if he hadn't followed up my "thank you" with 'No, thank you." That crossed the line into creepyland, and it's a line that's crossed here enough that it clearly bothers some people. Those people deserve to be heard, and treating them like they're imagining it or like they're easily offended doesn't help.

 

[Amaris]

I'm offended by the little smiley face sticking out its tongue at me. I think it is trying to flirt with me!

BAN THE SMILEY ICON!!!

^Yes, let's mock legitimate concerns with hyperbole.

For the record? The janitor at work the other day told me "You look good in jeans," which would have been fine if he hadn't followed up my "thank you" with 'No, thank you." That crossed the line into creepyland, and it's a line that's crossed here enough that it clearly bothers some people. Those people deserve to be heard, and treating them like they're imagining it or like they're easily offended doesn't help.

Yeah, I can definitely see where that would make you uncomfortable. He complimented you first go round, you responded positively, and then he complimented you like seeing you in jeans was a service to him, as if your intent was to display your body as an avenue for his amusement.

That, I completely understand.