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TBBS and treatment of women

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Well, I don't spend much time at all in Misc. (I prefer the brutal honesty of TNZ, as obnoxious as it sometimes gets), but I'm sorry to hear this is still a problem for some people.

Still, it seems from what I can tell that the Mods do a great job trying to regulate this activity and make the board welcoming to women. And it's always good to see fellow posters actually trying to communicate the wrongness of certain words and statements rather than relying on the Mods to step in.
 
Overall, I think the Moderators do a good job of keeping the peace at TrekBBS. In my tenure I have only had a problem with two of them. It is in the past and I won't elaborate.

Having raised a little girl into motherhood, I am sensitive to the effect derogatory words have on women... so I do not use them.

As a gay man, I have been attacked for my sexuality on TrekBBS in the past. The Moderator team acted admirably by taking care of complaints (not always made by me). Those who were creating the problem are no longer active so I assume the MOD team took care of the situation.

In an ideal world, posters would police themselves. In reality, Moderators are needed when we are unable or unwilling to do the job ourselves. I agree with T'Bonz and others who have said that we need to help the MOD team. When posting, I tend to post no differently than I would converse in real life. If we all did this, I do not think this thread would be necessary.
 
In all other forums (or fora, for those who like to be oh-so-intellectual),

Ah, now we get to start a thread about how smart people are derided for being intelligent? ;)
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I agree (mostly) w/Rmax. But I also agree w/RJD. Where's the line? How do you define it? Back in the day, I used to flirt up a storm with MissThang. I know she was cool w/it, but I wonder if I ever offended any other women who were just reading it? There's another female poster still on the board I've flirted w/a time or three, though I've backed off quite a bit after I saw some total creep (since banned) literally cyberstalk her. I still give her a little elbow in the ribs every now and then ;)

I do agree, Robert, on the stuff like "I'd hit that". I cannot stand that phrase. I'd hit that. Not her--that. (of course, you really can't say "I'd hit her") With that one phrase, you've reduced a woman to nothing more than a sperm receptical. Might as well say, "That pussy comes attached to a nice body".
 
Speaking for myself -- since I won't for every guy here, in real life I never call a girl words like "whore", "bitch", "cunt" in enduring ways, or sexually complementive ways either.

In fact, I really don't care for the word "cunt" and it's almost non existant in my vocabulary. Only times I've said it as of late, is quoted a friend who says it. I won't repeat what he says, because it's in very poor taste.
Ditto "twat", another word I don't care for. I did use it one time for humor when as I recall a post was made here of some old creepy guy who started a website with a countdown clock to that Happy Potter actress becoming of legal age. He had made, again as I recall, a comment abut where he worked. Many people were leaving negative comments for him, and I was one of them telling him I was going to call his work and let them know what kind of filth they have working there, and theat he can go screw himself "you broom twiddling twat" or something like that. As I recall, I got a few rave comments from TrekBBSers over that. His site vanished sometime afterward.


I also have never said to any girl, "I'd hit that" and do not recall ever saying to any guy "I'd hit that", though I think I've made a couple "I'd Hit That" Thread Bombs -- it was popular for a while there.

I muttered "Holy crap" to myself the other day when I saw a ... particularly beautiful female.


The last thing any board needs is the Sex Police, walking around like a MEter Maid, looking for anything to get in tizzy over. But I doubt it will come to that here. I think we got a fairly good T'Bonz leader here, and some well-meaning MODs (for the msot part).
 
If anybody on TrekBBS makes inappropriate sexual comments or overtures to another Poster, it should be reported and dealt with.

Otherwise, many of the comments here make me wonder what century I'm in. It seems that a lot of people here actually believe that men and women are different species or something; the most sexist comments are the ones coming from people who think they are complaining about sexism. Boys locker room mentality? Are you kidding me? I was the manager of a Midwifery Service for fourteen years and I sat through many a staff meeting where these women-- ranging in age from 30s through 60s-- discussed men and sex. If you people are uncomfortable with the discussions in Misc, you would have run screaming from that room and joined a monastery or something. :rommie:

I think part of the problem is that people have no problem listening to or engaging in such discussions with their own gender-- but become uncomfortable when with the opposite sex. And there's only one solution to that: Grow up.

And calling women "bitches" or "tramps" or whatever. Is there even an equivalent word for men? "Manwhore" doesn't quite cut it.
Yeah, men who call women cunts are dicks. My repressed Irish Catholic mother calls women, including herself, bitches. Tramps? Is that a bad word? It just makes me think of an old Cher song.

There's a difference between being sexually attracted to women and viewing women entirely through that lens. Whether we like it or not, having threads devoted solely to whether you think a woman is fuckable puts off an incredibly negative impression, as if a woman's only value is in whether she's worthy of a guy's dick.
When we have Threads about writers, we view them entirely through the lens of their writing. When we have Threads about athletes, we view them entirely through the lens of their athleticism. Same thing with actors, artists, sfx artists, dancers and so on. Putting beauty or sexuality in a separate category where the normal rules of Human behavior do not apply is just an old religious idea that has no place in the 21st century.

Hey, we have a lot of frustrated, bitter nerds here
And this is your idea of a comment that is appropriate?

This sort of thing makes me angry. I grew up in the era of Women's Lib, when women were struggling hard to be seen as the equal of men. They didn't want to be treated as second-class citizens or the weaker sex. The idea that Misc should have divans for maidens to faint upon at hearing off-color comments by uncouth males would have pissed them off, and it pisses me off. The backward politics of this century boggles my mind.
 
I read trough this topic and I've been thinking a bit about it. And I see the point that sometimes things go over the line and doesn't get dealt with. Hell, there are several female posters around here that are damn near stalked it feels at times. And I think about what I write so as to not come of ass creepy, because that is certainly never my intention.

However, why should I have to be so that I need to actively pick and choose my words in detail so as to not come of as that? Sure, the meaning of communication in text is harder to discern then speech in person. But why should you automatically be read as the worst possible meaning of your written words?

Anyone who knows me on these boards knows that I am all about respect. Even though I have things that get to me and I become brusque at times, most of the time I seek calm discussion as the solution. And I most definitely support men and women being equal. But take extra note of that last word: equal. Not one gender overpowering the other, be it with words or actions.
 
Hermiod would have loved this thread. :(

OT: People need to get over themselves and realize that TBBS isn't a dating site. I think over the decade+ this site has been active, I can recall one pair of posters who actually got married (though I am sure I am forgetting a handful). That isn't a great success rate.

Be respectful of the people on this site (at least where appropriate). However, I don't mind the Babe of the Week Threads or the countless pictures of the male cast of Enterprise shirtless; they are public persons who have these pictures and videos taken so that people can admire their physical qualities. Not that I engage in such activities, but it is a bit hypocritical for people to say "don't objectify me!" and then get revealing pictures taken.
 
Good manners tend to be checked at the login.
See, right there there's a problem.
On this specific board there's a playground for those who need, wish, or want to forget about manners, and that's the unmentionable TNZ.

Which is probably where posters are much more polite to eachother then in the rest of the board, except to those that are just trying to pull everybodies chains...
Ah, the irony...
 
...My repressed Irish Catholic mother calls women, including herself, bitches. Tramps? Is that a bad word? It just makes me think of an old Cher song.

As I said, misogynistic profanities are OK with some members of staff.

Let me see where we are: "bitch" is OK because it was used by your own mother? "Tramp" is OK as it's an 80's pop song as far as you're concerned? Plus, you are not really sure if "tramp" is a bad word anyway. Do you have a wife? Do you have a daughter? How would you feel if they were referred to as such?

I know it's OK with you, RJ, you've made yourself clear on this issue whenever it has come up. If you had been reading this topic however, you might have found it useful to notice it is not okay with many men and women, past and present.

I had imagined a mod's job is to think of the well-being of the community as a whole, rather than whether it's okay with them personally.

I usually have a lot of respect for you RJ, as you know, but I am really taken aback by how dismissive and insensitive you are being on this issue. It has been raised so many times by a number of people. Surely there is something to it. Are all the complainers having a mass delusion?

There is a hostile atmosphere for women, at times. Is this so hard to understand? Are you really implying we should match ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I am sorry if action on creeps and sexists seems last century to you, last time I checked, that kind of thing was still unacceptable in the civilised world.
 
I didn't realize it was so provocative just to ask people to be the least bit respectful.

"But other people do it!" sure is a great excuse, too. :rolleyes:
 
In addition, there's also less moderator experience to go on, so it's harder to enforce something new.

Now we get a hint into the root of the problem. Moderators are not used to taking action on creepiness/sexism, and so, they carry on as before, because it is too hard to set new concrete guidelines.

I think it's most natural for existing moderators to expect new staff to fit in with the existing system and existing ways of running things. But one of the symptoms I feel is that new staff are encouraged (not directly) to interpret comments and situations in those same established ways, to maintain some consistency in how things are run.

Reviewing rules and making small changes of policy and procedure is all very well for a week or two, but things will always slip back to old ways, simply because that is the board's equilibrium.

When I was on the staff here, I mentioned one time that it would be good to have a female moderator in misc, and with the above two paragraphs in mind, I believe that person would need to be given some free reign, if the status quo is to be challenged and a new equilibrium become established.

Some may react by saying that's pushing things too far, or sewing the seeds of chaos and staff disagreements. But I think it would work. :) If it doesn't work, then we can try something else.

Don't underestimate the power of green. A moderator active in her own forum is a powerful symbol of leadership and boundary setting. If people know they are being watched and judged, they will think twice before they speak.
 
BTW, although bitch is directed at women, I don't think it's any worse than dick being directed at men. I think there needs to be some effort to balance both sensitivity in realizing that these words make many women here feel uncomfortable with the simply fact that people use harsh language against non-posters (generally public figures) and we don't generally intervene in those cases (people who say "George W. Bush is a dick" don't get warned). That being said, there are other, harsher, words that I feel more of an effort could be done to intervene against.
 
Are you really implying we should match ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I am sorry if action on creeps and sexists seems last century to you, last time I checked, that kind of thing was still unacceptable in the civilised world.

Are you implying that we should match ourselves to the highest common denominator? That the community should conform itself to your standards? What if your behavior is seen as uncouth and inappropriate by another member here? Are you going to change to match their expectations?

As I hope that you agree, that would be a ridiculous expectation to make. Yes, there is a problem with creepy guys and girls here, but that is an issue that cannot be avoided with a community this size. Instead of just making generalized rants, people could PM these posters to make clear that their behavior is poor or they could notify the mods or they could simply ignore the poster. In the civilized world, we deal with our problems like adults, not tantrum prone children.
 
Are you really implying we should match ourselves to the lowest common denominator? I am sorry if action on creeps and sexists seems last century to you, last time I checked, that kind of thing was still unacceptable in the civilised world.

Are you implying that we should match ourselves to the highest common denominator? That the community should conform itself to your standards? What if your behavior is seen as uncouth and inappropriate by another member here? Are you going to change to match their expectations?

As I hope that you agree, that would be a ridiculous expectation to make. Yes, there is a problem with creepy guys and girls here, but that is an issue that cannot be avoided with a community this size. Instead of just making generalized rants, people could PM these posters to make clear that their behavior is poor or they could notify the mods or they could simply ignore the poster. In the civilized world, we deal with our problems like adults, not tantrum prone children.

That would certainly be nice. I didn't start this thread with the intention of finger-pointing, though it sure went down that road in a hurry. To me, that's indicative of the whole problem: no one wants to take responsibility for anything. It's always someone else's fault. I hope people start notifying on creepy behavior and try to dial back their own. It's not a problem that will magically solve itself, and making excuses for it sure isn't going to help, either.
 
Wish I'd seen this last night. I'm not going to read through 5 pages of this stuff, so if I'm repeating something, please forgive me.

I suppose growing up with four brothers, then entering the military has numbed me to being offended by nonsense. ... well, that's not quite true. I remember being a teen and while a friend of mine and I were dressed for the beach and standing in the yard waiting for others to be ready, a car full of guys drove by and made some comments. I was flattered. My friend was not.

That's not to say I don't get offended. While in the military, I took issue with a guy making assumptions about who's driving - he thought he was because, naturally, he's the guy and the only reason I was there was because the XO told me to show up so I could drive. After a few words - that couldn't even remotely be called heated - the XO walked in and asked what was going on. and this guy replied "PMS". That offended me.

If women here get offended by comments made about their picture, there's a solution - don't post a picture.

If a guy makes a comment you don't like, scroll past it - Honestly, you don't have to read it. The message board police will not come and take you away.

Guys, if a girl shows no interest in chattering away with you like she does with other posters, that doesn't make her a bitch. It makes her human. Get over yourselves.
 
In the civilized world, we deal with our problems like adults, not tantrum prone children.

Thank you. This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. If something offends you, tell the poster and, if you feel the need, notify the Mods. The point is to be proactive; if you expect the Mods to fix everything, then of course things won't get done to your satisfaction. In other words, stop whining and do something about it yourself. No one should be made to feel uncomfortable here, and keeping that in check is a group effort.

The tantrum-prone children comment made me laugh, because I've been on the Mod team for a large online group and worked in real life with dysfunctional toddlers. Honest to goodness, some days the toddlers were easier to deal with.
 
Time to join in without reading the prior five pages!

We think of (famous) women in sexual terms because that's largely the way they present themselves to us. Lady Gaga poses nearly naked on the cover of magazines, and there's tons of cleavage in other magazines for the consumer who's concerned about too much nudity.
 
I grew up in the era of Women's Lib, when women were struggling hard to be seen as the equal of men. They didn't want to be treated as second-class citizens or the weaker sex. The idea that Misc should have divans for maidens to faint upon at hearing off-color comments by uncouth males would have pissed them off, and it pisses me off. The backward politics of this century boggles my mind.

No one's saying we're maidens that can't handle hearing a few words. It's about asking for a bit more respect and consideration in some areas.

I don't know, this whole thread has just made me upset and I'm disappointed in what I've been hearing from a few posters. But I guess I'm just a weak, oversensitive person who doesn't belong on the internet.
 
I grew up in the era of Women's Lib, when women were struggling hard to be seen as the equal of men. They didn't want to be treated as second-class citizens or the weaker sex. The idea that Misc should have divans for maidens to faint upon at hearing off-color comments by uncouth males would have pissed them off, and it pisses me off. The backward politics of this century boggles my mind.

No one's saying we're maidens that can't handle hearing a few words. It's about asking for a bit more respect and consideration in some areas.

I don't know, this whole thread has just made me upset and I'm disappointed in what I've been hearing from a few posters. But I guess I'm just a weak, oversensitive person who doesn't belong on the internet.

I hope I did not contribute to that. I think that you, like most of the people here, are awesome. :techman:
 
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