TBBS and treatment of women

[tharpdevenport]

Be respectful of the people on this site (at least where appropriate). However, I don't mind the Babe of the Week Threads or the countless pictures of the male cast of Enterprise shirtless; they are public persons who have these pictures and videos taken so that people can admire their physical qualities.

But they did do all those for profit. I don't think any of those guys ripped their shirts off and let professional photographers snap glamor shots of them, unless stalked by poparazzi on the beach.

Does being "public" make it any better? If you found some shirtless pictures of male TrekBBS posters, would you start a thread with said pictures? And how positive are any of us some of the Trek spin-off cast aren't members here?

I wonder if they enjoy such threads after a while. Maybe it's flattering at first.

Great; I agree with RJDiogenes. What fucking next?

You paint your face purple/pink, and buy a funnny looking offwhite hat. And you cross your eyes.

That's not to say I don't get offended. While in the military, I took issue with a guy making assumptions about who's driving - he thought he was because, naturally, he's the guy and the only reason I was there was because the XO told me to show up so I could drive. After a few words - that couldn't even remotely be called heated - the XO walked in and asked what was going on. and this guy replied "PMS". That offended me.

That guy was a jackass.

We think of (famous) women in sexual terms because that's largely the way they present themselves to us. Lady Gaga poses nearly naked on the cover of magazines, and there's tons of cleavage in other magazines for the consumer who's concerned about too much nudity.

That's the way celebrities, and occassional nobody female for pornography magazines, present themselves, for cash.
The local girl at the gym, the local girl at Wal-Mart, she isn't posing nearly naked on the local newspaper or local magazine. And very few except the younger crowd, especially at events like Spring Break, play up the boobage.

But there is something to be said there. Many women are playing up their physical attributes, from breast lifting bras, butt-rounding & lifting pants, tight pants, tight shirts, low-cut jeans, cleavage showing shirt lines, low-cut shirt lines (not necessarily showing cleavage), exposed & shaved legs, make up, well-kept and styled hair. And they want to wonder why they get some attention? They make considerable efforts to get that attention.
Aside from Fabio and Kevin Sorbo, what guy walks around with his hairy well-toned chest exposed in a silky shirt? What regular guy gets tight, soft pants to show off his ass? What guy gets package hugging pants (or largening and "uplifting" pants for that area, like women and butt pants), what guy buys make up to touch up imperfections on his face? And then, finally, what guy walks around trying to get his ass to get attention from all the girls, and make flex some muscle.
And if you do do all that, you'll probably make The People of Wal-Mart website.

In this bloody PC culture, folks just seem to forget humans are sexual beings, we have sexuallity, and normal ones to want that attention. And then you're suprised when you get a little? I'm not saying it is all good attention, obviously everybody is different and many lack good judgement and thinking when they comment (but do we expect evberybody to be perfect and do and say what we would -- isn't that unrealistic?), and aren't what we are really saying is: I'm basically complaining because I didn't like what you had to say, and it wasn't worded how I would have done it.
As long as it doesn't break the rules, the law, and general "Creepy son of a bitch" lines, then wouldn't we essentially be the Thought Police, and actually enforcing Thought Police calls?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I don't think the sticking point is sensitivity so much as it may be respect.

There is a lack of respect from people in general not just on the issues about female posters and mens attitude toward women. People in general are not respectful...if they disagree with another's opinion they are some how ridiculed and made to look like an idiot...instead of respectfully disagreeing.

This. I made a comment about this just a couple of days ago in some other thread. People ask for opinions and then if someone doesn't agree with the opinion the "offending" poster is ridiculed and ridden. I find it all very tiring.

I agree with Jenee, if you have a problem with the "hot babe" threads, don't go in there. What i cannot escape (and wish i could) are the avatars that are there, in your face, no matter what thread you are in, which feature women with large breasts that are barely covered. Nobody questions whether or not that is acceptable....

Robert, i do appreciate your bringing this topic up. I hope you know that i like and respect you very much outside of the BBS, but i have to admit, i am uncomfortable with your statement, "On the flip side of it, you get comments like "I'd hit it," avatars with bouncing tits, threads about whether or not a given female celebrity is hot."

By using the word "tits" the way you did...it just doesn't seem in keeping with what you are trying to say. Please don't be upset with me, i am not trying to 'call you out' on this. I'm just saying.

Yeah, I admit I was being crass there, but thank you for illustrating my point for me! I shouldn't have used that word in that context and you picked up on it pretty quickly. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I know I'm not perfect, I just try to do better. I'm not asking anyone else to be perfect, either, just to try to be more considerate and thoughtful before posting.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

^ None of us are (perfect that is). {{{{squish}}}

 

[ThankQ]

I don't think the sticking point is sensitivity so much as it may be respect.

There is a lack of respect from people in general not just on the issues about female posters and mens attitude toward women. People in general are not respectful...if they disagree with another's opinion they are some how ridiculed and made to look like an idiot...instead of respectfully disagreeing.

This. I made a comment about this just a couple of days ago in some other thread. People ask for opinions and then if someone doesn't agree with the opinion the "offending" poster is ridiculed and ridden. I find it all very tiring.

I agree with Jenee, if you have a problem with the "hot babe" threads, don't go in there. What i cannot escape (and wish i could) are the avatars that are there, in your face, no matter what thread you are in, which feature women with large breasts that are barely covered. Nobody questions whether or not that is acceptable....

Actually, I think that has been questioned, and I totally understand why you might not like that. I don't like them. But where do you draw the line? Okay, no naked breasts. Got it. But our society (I'm assuming we're playing by USA rules on this board, for if we were German based, or Dutch based, it would be quite different) has determined that you can show anything but the nipple. As silly as that is, and when you get right down to it's laughable on several levels, that's today's society. Breasts can be a sexual symbol. So can a slim waistline. A slim waist gets my man thoughts going much more than big boobs do.

What about a strikingly beautiful face? That's the first thing that will get my sexual attention.

I agree with you that it can be offensive. But I also agree with those who are saying that no ever promised you that you'd never be offended. In a pluralistic world, some of my ideas are going to offend you. Some of your ideas are going to offend me.

In the "prayer" thread from last week, some people were offended by MY feelings about prayer. I wasn't trying to tell them right or wrong, or what they had to think, or to change their minds, I just shared what I thought, and that offended some people. Now, I backed off because I wanted to be considerate and understanding, but that's a choice that I made based on who I want to be.

While I would like us all to be courteous, thoughtful and respectful, it's simply not my place to tell anyone else that they should have to be any of those things.

I would like it if people weren't offended by simply being exposed to an idea they disagree with. But the truth is, there are many people of the attitude, "what I believe I believe so strongly that anyone who doesn't believe what I believe is offensive".

I have no problem with people asking for respect and courtesy from others. I have a problem when we start talking about making it a rule that you can't do anything that anyone might ever find offensive.

When we get to that point, what will there be left to post?

 

[ichab]

I don't know, I just don't think it's kosher to judge women you've never even met and probably never will meet with a simple, "yeah, I'd fuck that." It reduces her to nothing but an object for your sexual gratification. I know that's a cliche but could it be any more obvious?

There are many non-kosher things that are said on the internet on a regular basis.It isn't just women.

And calling women "bitches" or "tramps" or whatever. Is there even an equivalent word for men? "Manwhore" doesn't quite cut it.

There's a difference between being sexually attracted to women and viewing women entirely through that lens. Whether we like it or not, having threads devoted solely to whether you think a woman is fuckable puts off an incredibly negative impression, as if a woman's only value is in whether she's worthy of a guy's dick.

There are many nasty names for males:

Asshole
C*cksucker
F*ckface
D*pshit
D*ckhead

And yes, even "CUNT" has been used to describe men. When people look for nasty words to throw at other people they use parts of the body and sexual putdowns.

 

[KimMH]

The thoughts expressed by RobertMaxwell are greatly appreciated. A point made earlier is that thoughtful intelligent people will use this opportunity to think before they post/speak and thoughtless people will continue on thier way, oblivious to offense they give.

Fortunately, this board seems populated with mostly intelligent thoughtful people and the mods have been very agressive at rooting the most obvious offenders out. There are only so many mods and so many hours and you do have to choose your battles.

I've noticed that many posters here are quick to defend people who are being piled on or are being treated unfairly. This is not always the case but I am always encouraged by the way that many posters will stand up for others.

At the end of the day we all have to self moderate but the occasional reminder that all is not perfect only helps out, imo.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I don't know, I just don't think it's kosher to judge women you've never even met and probably never will meet with a simple, "yeah, I'd fuck that." It reduces her to nothing but an object for your sexual gratification. I know that's a cliche but could it be any more obvious?

There are many non-kosher things that are said on the internet on a regular basis.It isn't just women.

Thanks for stating the obvious, bro.

Just because other people do bad things doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to all of them. "Well, as long as bad shit's going on, why bother to do anything about any of it?" That's not a fruitful discussion.

And calling women "bitches" or "tramps" or whatever. Is there even an equivalent word for men? "Manwhore" doesn't quite cut it.

There's a difference between being sexually attracted to women and viewing women entirely through that lens. Whether we like it or not, having threads devoted solely to whether you think a woman is fuckable puts off an incredibly negative impression, as if a woman's only value is in whether she's worthy of a guy's dick.

There are many nasty names for males:

Asshole
C*cksucker
F*ckface
D*pshit
D*ckhead

And yes, even "CUNT" has been used to describe men. When people look for nasty words to throw at other people they use parts of the body and sexual putdowns.

Yeah, and? Doesn't make it right. I can't tell anyone what to do but I like to think we're all reasonable people here and can at least try to be considerate of each other. Save the real nastiness for TNZ.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Well, "asshole" transcends gender. I can name many assholes, both on and off TrekBBS. A few dickheads, too.


Anyone else notice it took some board issue and general proble, to get some serious, and thoughtful debate going on around here without nasty name calling and political attacks?

 

[TheBrew]

Be respectful of the people on this site (at least where appropriate). However, I don't mind the Babe of the Week Threads or the countless pictures of the male cast of Enterprise shirtless; they are public persons who have these pictures and videos taken so that people can admire their physical qualities.

But they did do all those for profit. I don't think any of those guys ripped their shirts off and let professional photographers snap glamor shots of them, unless stalked by poparazzi on the beach.

Does being "public" make it any better? If you found some shirtless pictures of male TrekBBS posters, would you start a thread with said pictures? And how positive are any of us some of the Trek spin-off cast aren't members here?

I wonder if they enjoy such threads after a while. Maybe it's flattering at first.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. That was just gibberish.

 

[T'Bonz]

Reading through today's threads, I can see that there are differences in how people feel about this. It makes it hard, because there is no *right* way of being - we all have different perceptions.

I'm a female. I don't like some of the stuff some males online say. My response is to either blow past it, or, if I'm irked enough (which is rare for this), to say something and either bring the offender up short or shame them, depending on my mood.

Otherwise, many of the comments here make me wonder what century I'm in. It seems that a lot of people here actually believe that men and women are different species or something; the most sexist comments are the ones coming from people who think they are complaining about sexism. Boys locker room mentality? Are you kidding me?

That's an unhelpful attitude. You obviously feel that you're enlightened and those who disagree aren't, but that is a wrong attitude and frankly, you come off a bit arrogant and smug in saying so.

I don't get bent over most of the attitude, but that doesn't mean I don't see the points. A one-off is one thing, but there are times when as a human, I'm mortified to read some of what people post and I think (but don't say until now) "With that kind of behavior, you'll never get laid, the women will run away." Some of the behavior can cross over into being intimidating and tsk tsking because people aren't enlightened enough to put up with adolescent behavior is rather insulting.

The problem is that people perceive themselves as invisible and are braver (and blunter in many cases) online than in person. If I had money for everyone that I've met who is shy IRL and bold online, I could retire to the Riviera. It rather surprises me, as I'm precisely the same IRL as I am online.

So people will often say stuff online that they would, by societal politeness, wouldn't say online. Unless they were alone with a group of their own sex (male *or* female. Females can be blunt too. Hell, I am blunter than most females.)

We have enough in here uncomfortable with some behaviors that it needs to be addressed. Both extremes will need to experience some discomfort I think, both those who get offended easily and those who don't, and try to find a common middle with which everyone can live.

Many women don't like overt sexual attention, especially from strangers. I remember in my heyday while a male whistling at me was flattering, it was also embarrassing and made me feel at some level uncomfortable. That is what some of this talk does. It may not happen to everyone, but that does not make those feelings any less valid.

* * *

Trekker4747:

If women here are being treated badly, sure, something needs to be said.

Something has been said.

As for slurs against women (bitch, skank, etc.) again if it's being directed towards a poster here, and it's not TNZ, it's worth mentioning. But when it's being directed towards celebrities why is it a big deal?

Probably because of the atmosphere it makes. "If he says that kind of thing against a celebrity female, he really thinks that about females in general, including me."

I must admit, I dislike many celebrities (and am female) and am just as guilty of saying nasty things about them as any male. I guess I need to re-evaluate that...

"c-word", "tramp", "slut" aren't intended to harm the woman or suggest the woman's sexual promiscuity or anything like that but are just slurs against the woman.

Forgive me, but that is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read on this board. You've got to be kidding me. And the "n" word is just a slur against a black person.

Words have power, power to hurt. Saying those words to a woman is often perceived as "you're only valuable for sex" or "I want to fuck you." That may not be the intent, but that is what comes across.

At the end of the day, people need to remember that there are real faces behind the computer screens and try, just try, to be decent. It's not hard. Pretend it's someone you know and like IRL and then it's much easier.

Women like to be thought of as more than their looks. Truly. That doesn't mean they don't appreciate being thought attractive, but they don't want to just be thought of as a sexual object. And the way some words come out, they feel that that is how some view them. It's not fun.

Again, if you think there is a problem, hit the mod notify.

We don't have a female mod, nor do I think we need one in here. Males are just as capable as women of handling this type of situation. It's a bit insulting to them to insist that only a woman can handle it.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Be respectful of the people on this site (at least where appropriate). However, I don't mind the Babe of the Week Threads or the countless pictures of the male cast of Enterprise shirtless; they are public persons who have these pictures and videos taken so that people can admire their physical qualities.

But they did do all those for profit. I don't think any of those guys ripped their shirts off and let professional photographers snap glamor shots of them, unless stalked by poparazzi on the beach.

Does being "public" make it any better? If you found some shirtless pictures of male TrekBBS posters, would you start a thread with said pictures? And how positive are any of us some of the Trek spin-off cast aren't members here?

I wonder if they enjoy such threads after a while. Maybe it's flattering at first.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. That was just gibberish.

The point is you're justifying the action with "public" and celebrity status.

 

[CaptainWacky]

The obvious and only solution is to ban all female posters from the board.

 

[tharpdevenport]

And hang a sign that says "Men Only!" atop the web page.

But this would mean banning our glorious leader, the T'Bonz.

 

[T'Bonz]

The obvious and only solution is to ban all female posters from the board.

OK, who invited Wacky into the thread?

* *

But this would mean banning our glorious leader, the "T'Bonz.

Sucking up doesn't work with me.

 

[TheBrew]

But they did do all those for profit. I don't think any of those guys ripped their shirts off and let professional photographers snap glamor shots of them, unless stalked by poparazzi on the beach.

Does being "public" make it any better? If you found some shirtless pictures of male TrekBBS posters, would you start a thread with said pictures? And how positive are any of us some of the Trek spin-off cast aren't members here?

I wonder if they enjoy such threads after a while. Maybe it's flattering at first.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. That was just gibberish.

The point is you're justifying the action with "public" and celebrity status.

I wasn't justifying it, I was simply saying that it doesn't bother me as much as if it was a poster here.

 

[tharpdevenport]

, as I'm precisely the same IRL as I am online.

You call yourself T'Bonz in real life?

But this would mean banning our glorious leader, the T'Bonz.

Sucking up doesn't work with me.

Drat.


Then I for one welcome our new testosterone driven male leader.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

You call yourself T'Bonz in real life?

It's a play on her real name (Bon), so, kind of.

 

[Jadzia]

Again, if you think there is a problem, hit the mod notify.

We don't have a female mod, nor do I think we need one in here. Males are just as capable as women of handling this type of situation. It's a bit insulting to them to insist that only a woman can handle it.

What you're suggesting isn't going to change anything. People only hit notify if something is big enough and obvious enough to complain about.

Buttons are black&white things. To press or not to press. Problem or no problem. People don't notify the small stuff because the process of typing in an explanation on the notify form will always feel disproportionate to whatever the incident it.

I don't think it's a question of existing mods not being able to handle it. My earlier suggestion wasn't to question moderator competence, but to highlight how a female mod would find it easier than a man to see things from a female perspective. There are two obvious benefits to that:

- That person can say something to the poster straight away, rather people contemplating whether or not a sentence is worth pressing the notify button for.

- A female mod would be a forum leader, and posters will be naturally inclined to think of that person and anticipate their judgement when writing a post. It would help a poster to think of how their post comes across to women.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

, as I'm precisely the same IRL as I am online.

You call yourself T'Bonz in real life?

That would also explain the ale shortage.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I was joking. Yeah, I think the full name was "Bonnie", but I really don't recall.



T'Bonz, I think RJDiogenes did have a point though. Say we switch out "men" and "women" for "white" and "black" people.