TBBS and treatment of women

[Robert Maxwell]

Something's been bothering me lately. It's something I only peripherally noticed at first, but lately it's been more and more in-my-face. The Christina Aguilera/national anthem thread really clinched it for me, I think.

"Pop tramp," "pop tart," etc. As if a woman should be defined primarily by the fact that she is a woman, and being a woman is a bad thing, particularly if she appears to be the least bit in control of her sexuality. What is this, the 1950s?

Elsewhere, you have women getting called "bitches" or "cunts," which is just so casually done around here few people even bat an eye, and it amazes me. A woman can't just do something bad, no, she's a bitch if she does something bad--it becomes her whole identity. You sum up her entire being in one hateful word, inextricably bound up in her gender as if being born female is an insult in and of itself. Do people even pay attention to how they talk and how their words are perceived?

On the flip side of it, you get comments like "I'd hit it," avatars with bouncing tits, threads about whether or not a given female celebrity is hot. You get the guys who kiss ass and suck up to female posters, oblivious to the fact that it's not attractive or friendly, it's creepy. (This is something I've had to face on my own forums, I just notice it happens here, too.)

I guess this came out as more of a rant than I intended, it all just makes me kind of ashamed to be a male posting around here. The behavior towards women here is often so very inappropriate yet simultaneously so entrenched it's as if nothing can be done about it. This isn't something I expect the admins and mods to fix--it's so ingrained I don't think any level of moderator intervention is going to correct it. But I want to offer this thread as an opportunity to reflect. Think about the things you've said here and if they're really appropriate and what kind of light they shed on your character. If you don't think you're "that guy," take a closer look and make damn sure.

Pre-empting some likely tangents: women do sometimes abet this type of behavior, and engage in it toward men, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as prevalent as what I described above. I am not against discussing all of those angles but I would really like to see discussion of the main point, too.

 

[Spot's Meow]

I've noticed it too, for many years. Its not just here though, it's a part of everyday life. Sometimes it makes me really sad, other times it makes me really angry, and a lot of the time I try to just ignore it. It sucks, but I don't see it changing any time soon.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Hmm. Chauvinism makes you ashamed to be a male-- there's irony.

If you see this as a problem with male posters, I can only imagine it's because most posters here are male. Women make these type of comments about other women at least as frequently, if not moreso, than men do. And they do indeed speak about men in sexual terms, endlessly (that's the definition of chauvinism, right? When men talk about women the same way women talk about men. ).

As for "I'd hit it" and "Babe Threads," yeah, most men are sexually attracted to women. Again, women do the same thing. I hardly think that's a problem.

I'm not seeing much of an issue here, except maybe that some people are cruder than others-- but that's the world we live in.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I don't know, I just don't think it's kosher to judge women you've never even met and probably never will meet with a simple, "yeah, I'd fuck that." It reduces her to nothing but an object for your sexual gratification. I know that's a cliche but could it be any more obvious?

And calling women "bitches" or "tramps" or whatever. Is there even an equivalent word for men? "Manwhore" doesn't quite cut it.

There's a difference between being sexually attracted to women and viewing women entirely through that lens. Whether we like it or not, having threads devoted solely to whether you think a woman is fuckable puts off an incredibly negative impression, as if a woman's only value is in whether she's worthy of a guy's dick.

 

[An Officer]

You wouldn't be the first to say so. This very thing has driven many good people from the boards. Nothing much ever gets done about it, because at least 80% of the mods think it's perfectly OK behaviour, some even openly engage in what you describe themselves. MISC has no female mods at the moment, if there were a fairer representation of the board, then things might finally start to change.

I believe there is something of an old boy network at work here, when one mod leaves, he is replaced with an exact replica, usually one of their buddies.

You are right, this behaviour is deeply ingrained, but that's what mods and rules are for... Unfortunately, we do not have enough well-mannered people like yourself notifying. Still, what's the point? It's like notifying the mafia when there has been a robbery.

I do believe that T'Bonz has tried to stamp this out though. "Tried" being the operative word.

 

[Jetfire]

The only way you can deal with this if you feel it is a problem is implement rules specifically to deal with it and enforce it.

"Infraction for ???" What ever you are going to call it and there you go.

 

[Canadave]

I definitely know what you mean, Robert. It's to the point where (for example) if a female poster posts her picture, I get very hesitant about saying something innocuous like "You're cute!" or "You're pretty!" In that example, I'd never mean anything more than that, but because of the way I've seen some people act around here, I get worried that it might be taken the wrong way. Hence I don't tend to hang around in the picture threads on a regular basis.

Now, admittedly, the BBS is much better than a lot of the Internet (a statement that can be applied on a general as well as a specific basis ), but there really can be an unfortunate element of creepiness underlying some of the posts on here. And it is important to use qualifiers like "some," as it's hardly applicable to all posters, but I definitely see behaviour here on occasion that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, and it's not even directed at me. And it's really unfortunate that it's driven good posters away in the past.

And I agree that there's nothing that can realistically be done to change the way it is, but it would be great if there was a solution.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Officer, I disagree with your assessment of why nothing changes. It's not complicity, it's because rules are inadequate to deal with things of this nature. There have been at least six discussions of this topic (out here or in the BR) since I became a mod. Even when there isn't a full discussion, there are always little "can we do anything here" type situations. The sad truth is the only thing that can be done is to change the culture, and the posters make the culture, not the mods. I know mods that have taken it on themselves to speak and say "that's not appropriate", but they can only do so as regular posters and let's be frank, the posters who say these things are oblivious enough that they don't get the hint when hit over the head with it. There's very little that can be done that can be backed up with warnings. There is no warning for being creepy button we can push.

It's unfortunate that there have been no female Misc mods since May left. I know it's been on everyone's mind for a long time and is certainly a factor when we look for a new mod. In the end, it sucks, but there is a balancing act from our end. The board serves the interests of the posters and most posters don't want us being too heavy-handed and no one wants warnings for vaguely defined rules.

 

[An Officer]

There is a sticky topic right at the top of this page, Jetfire, specifically addressing "sexism" and "creepiness"... people toed the line for a little while, then things got back to business as usual... hence the wobbling tits bombs in the middle of ordinary threads, not to mention the misogynistic profanities as mentioned by the OP.

Hey, we have a lot of frustrated, bitter nerds here, and they're venting on these boards in a very anti-social way, because they're once again allowed to do so by the mods. Sexism and creepiness used to be warnable (but only 1 or 2 mods availed themselves) but that has been shamelessly flouted for some time now.

 

[Amaris]

The problem is intent. The more obvious ones are easily handled enough, but what do you do if someone says "You look beautiful!", and the female poster takes it as a creepy comment? Perception is reality. 9 out of 10 women may not find the comment creepy, but that one woman is going to be pretty frustrated to see the free reign in creepy comments allowed to take place on the board. Aside from posters with long track records of very creepy comments, zeroing in on the intent of the poster is going to be very difficult.

Then you have the fun, jokey comments, ones that are tongue-in-cheek, and most people laugh at them and move on. How do you regulate a jokey comment compared to a creepy comment? Again, it comes down to intent, and it comes down to the perception by the receiving party.

All of that is a bit too nebulous to contain inside of a regulation, short of saying "no directed comments of a personal nature toward any member that may be perceived as sexual in nature", and if you do that, you're in for a lot of work as a Mod or Admin.

 

[Franklin]

A few things:
-- Flip and glib remarks seem to rule the day. We are all guilty of that from time to time on here. The cheap shot. Some pull it off better than others, too. Some know the targets who "get it" or even deserve it, others don't. When the target is a woman, it becomes even more problematic.
-- There is a locker-room mentality here. Men call other men douchebags, question each others manhood, and get into cussing matches. Women are objectified as objects of lust. There's an adolescent air to it. Men's lockerrooms are seldom open to women. When they are, those women seldom see the type of behavior that would normally go on in there. Women who post here see everything.
-- Overfamiliarity. We could all be in line with each other at a Starbucks and not know it, but there's a tendency to go back and forth on here as if some folks are drinking buddies. I may have walked right by one of you, today. One of you I tend to "like" may have slammed a door in my face. One of you "douchebags" may have held open a door for me.
-- I think people overplay certain personas. I doubt many of us are truly the type of person we take on when we post here. We all come off a little bit different.
-- All the different regions and nationalities represented here makes what's appropriate relative.
-- Fewer women posting here leads to some of the men either becoming the "protective brother," or he treats the woman like "one of the boys." Neither may be entirely appropriate or appreciated.

Of course there is a degree of "buyer beware" for all of us when we post here. Good manners tend to be checked at the login.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's very unpleasant to see and be around, yes. It's a very immature, 6th-grade handling of sexuality--very disrespectful. Most often I see it addressed towards women, but I also see men insult and degrade each other if they think that something is wrong with the other person's "manhood." Also quite disrespectful. Women have made inappropriate remarks, too, towards men.

I think that mods do set a critical example. They have a larger responsibility than an ordinary poster and when they do not model proper behavior, then it shouldn't surprise anyone when the result is anarchy.

 

[Switch]

Hey, we have a lot of frustrated, bitter nerds here, and they're venting on these boards in a very anti-social way, because they're once again allowedto do so by the mods.

And so your solution is to muzzle "a lot of frustrated, bitter nerds" so as to spare the sensibilities of the few? Interesting sense of entitlement there.

 

[Niorah]

Good manners tend to be checked at the login.

See, right there there's a problem.
On this specific board there's a playground for those who need, wish, or want to forget about manners, and that's the unmentionable TNZ.

In all other forums (or fora, for those who like to be oh-so-intellectual), good manners should be required just as if the conversation were taking place in public, among friends. I'm quite sure if you are friends with someone it means you respect him/her, therefore I don't understand the lack of said respect.

This said, I agree that it is a question of personal mentality and outlook, some people are naturally more prone to behave in a dignified way, some show themselves for the half-animals they are as soon as they have carte blanche. Pity.

It needs to be said though, that sometimes, some -rare- times let me underline, the situation goes completely berserk because this or that female poster has zero tolerance, no sense of humour, and a skin thinner then air. To be fair.
Unfortunately, as I said, that is the rare occurrence.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

That's a good point...people forget that they are in public. If it would earn you a punch in the face for saying it in real life, then it's not appropriate online either.

 

[An Officer]

There is no warning for being creepy button we can push.

Alidar, if you recall, T'Bonz said this:

Don't say sexist things like this. Don't say CREEPY things when women post their photos or say things in Misc. Don't do it.

Because it will be warned from here on out.

Perhaps it is an oversight this button hasn't already been created, since this has been a specific re-occurring issue here for many people, over many years.

 

[Jetfire]

An Officer I think if these rules were actually being enforced some might be more mindful and then some might keep doing what they are doing until banned.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

An Officer I think if these rules were actually being enforced some might be more mindful and then some might keep doing what they are doing until banned.

That goes back to the "setting an example" point I was making before.

It's a tough pill to swallow, but if you have a position of responsibility, you give up a certain degree of your freedom. Period. That's true if you're a manager IRL or a mod online. I have been both (and will NEVER do the mod thing again), and I can tell you that if you don't set a good example and watch what you say and do, and if you are not consistent in enforcing the rules, then people will not take you seriously when you tell them to do something.

 

[Amaris]

There is no warning for being creepy button we can push.

Alidar, if you recall, T'Bonz said this:

Don't say sexist things like this. Don't say CREEPY things when women post their photos or say things in Misc. Don't do it.

Because it will be warned from here on out.

Perhaps it is an oversight this button hasn't already been created, since this has been a specific re-occurring issue here for many people, over many years.

Again, how do you warn for it? Which post is the creepy one?

"You look pretty!"
"Wow, you're hot!"
"I love your hair color."
"You have a gorgeous complexion."
"W00t! Sexy!"
"How you doin'? "

I mean, I understand what you're saying, but how to enforce it?

 

[Caliburn24]

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of posters on TBBS are female?

As to the topic at hand, I deplore how women are viewed and objectified here, and most other places(while I am admittedly guilty of it myself sometimes). But our culture, particularly pop culture is all about appearance, fame and sex. That ain't gonna change without some sort of religious revival or deep moral shift from another source.

Trying to put some rules in place here, without changing the overall mindset, would just make for a stuffier atmosphere.