to me it's the same thing, but i admit i'm having arguments with someone who was on the same side as me before
Swearing in Star Trek - Steve Shives
- Thread starter Tuskin38
- Start date
I don't follow.
My wife and I have a good understanding.
Not well in my opinion. Not additive, enjoyable or informative.
This is a whole other topic, but an interesting one.
A few thoughts on sex scenes:
Stories are about characters and relationships. Sex affects relationships, can define relationships, is often a major turning point in relationships, and frequently motivates characters, possibly to do things they might not otherwise do. It therefore stands to reason that it can play a big part in both dramas, melodramas, and comedies.
And here's the thing: All sexual encounters are not the same. There's good sex, bad sex, casual sex, desperate sex, tender sex, angry sex, playful sex, guilty sex, kinky sex, etc. And what kind of sex we're talking about, and how it plays out, can tell you a lot about the characters and what this particular experience means to them. Is this the consummation of a long-simmering passion, or just a one-night stand? Is this a life-altering, relationship-altering moment, or just another Saturday night? Is it typical of him or her, or completely out of character? Is it the best sex they've ever had or the worst?
Granted, exactly how much of the actual sex you want or need to depict is going to be a judgement call, depending on what kinda story you're telling and for whom, but the old adage "show, don't tell" can apply here. If this is a big moment in the story, maybe you shouldn't coyly keep it offstage? And why should you?
Plus, there's the fact that an erotic scene can be engrossing and entertaining in its own right, just like a car chase, a light-saber battle, a courtroom drama, or a pie in the face. You wouldn't cut away from other kinds of excitement, so why treat sex scenes differently? Especially if it's a pivotal moment in the plot.
Look at it this way. Suppose you're watching (or reading) a western and the whole story has been building up to the big showdown at high noon. Is it fair to the viewer (or the reader) to abruptly fade to black just as the bullets start flying? Putting on my editor's hat for minute, if you've been milking the sexual tension between Dmitri and Sonja for 350 pages, and keeping the reader waiting for them to finally hit the sheets, I'd worry about suddenly cutting to "The next morning, after they made love . . . . " What kind of pay-off is that?
Like I said, it's a judgement call, and while it's certainly possible to get too explicit, it's also possible to be too coy sometimes. I'm recalling a manuscript where I honestly couldn't tell if the Boy and Girl were sleeping together or not, so I had to ask the author to clarify that, one way or another, because I was confused as to what exactly the characters wanted from each other at that juncture in the novel.
Knowing if and when and even how your characters are having sex matters sometimes. Just as it does in real life.
A few thoughts on sex scenes:
Stories are about characters and relationships. Sex affects relationships, can define relationships, is often a major turning point in relationships, and frequently motivates characters, possibly to do things they might not otherwise do. It therefore stands to reason that it can play a big part in both dramas, melodramas, and comedies.
And here's the thing: All sexual encounters are not the same. There's good sex, bad sex, casual sex, desperate sex, tender sex, angry sex, playful sex, guilty sex, kinky sex, etc. And what kind of sex we're talking about, and how it plays out, can tell you a lot about the characters and what this particular experience means to them. Is this the consummation of a long-simmering passion, or just a one-night stand? Is this a life-altering, relationship-altering moment, or just another Saturday night? Is it typical of him or her, or completely out of character? Is it the best sex they've ever had or the worst?
Granted, exactly how much of the actual sex you want or need to depict is going to be a judgement call, depending on what kinda story you're telling and for whom, but the old adage "show, don't tell" can apply here. If this is a big moment in the story, maybe you shouldn't coyly keep it offstage? And why should you?
Plus, there's the fact that an erotic scene can be engrossing and entertaining in its own right, just like a car chase, a light-saber battle, a courtroom drama, or a pie in the face. You wouldn't cut away from other kinds of excitement, so why treat sex scenes differently? Especially if it's a pivotal moment in the plot.
Look at it this way. Suppose you're watching (or reading) a western and the whole story has been building up to the big showdown at high noon. Is it fair to the viewer (or the reader) to abruptly fade to black just as the bullets start flying? Putting on my editor's hat for minute, if you've been milking the sexual tension between Dmitri and Sonja for 350 pages, and keeping the reader waiting for them to finally hit the sheets, I'd worry about suddenly cutting to "The next morning, after they made love . . . . " What kind of pay-off is that?
Like I said, it's a judgement call, and while it's certainly possible to get too explicit, it's also possible to be too coy sometimes. I'm recalling a manuscript where I honestly couldn't tell if the Boy and Girl were sleeping together or not, so I had to ask the author to clarify that, one way or another, because I was confused as to what exactly the characters wanted from each other at that juncture in the novel.
Knowing if and when and even how your characters are having sex matters sometimes. Just as it does in real life.
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As with many things it depends greatly on the execution. Now, my personal experience has not been great for on screen success of building that drama helping, it fit the characters, and making it pay off. And that makes me reticent to try more, especially in an action/adventure vehicle like Star Trek. But, I hold this view with multiple shows and genres. As well as romance. It's a hard sell.
Exactly, but, of course, that applies to any kind of scene or situation. A comedy scene, an expository scene, an action scene, an internal monologue, a death scene, you name it. It can be done well, or badly, or in-between.
To my mind, sex scenes are no different, as with using profanity in dialogue (just to bring us vaguely OT).
Tentatively I agree. I just feel that even if other types of scenes can work even if rough, sex scenes have a tiny margin of error.
Now that is probably just me and I've largely given up at this point. Too much disappointment.
Ideally, the best sex scenes are about people having sex in character. They're not just about generic bodies or body parts colliding; they're about Dmitri and Sonja and what they bring to the encounter: their personalities, histories, issues, hang-ups, wants and desires, etc. Are they shy or bold or awkward with the other? Are they selfish or giving? Are they throughly smitten or just having fun? Are they scared of getting caught or are they all out of fucks?
That's the ideal at least. But, yes, I have read books, and seen movies, where the characters seem to lose all their individuality once things get hot and heavy. To my mind, that's how NOT to do it.
That's the ideal at least. But, yes, I have read books, and seen movies, where the characters seem to lose all their individuality once things get hot and heavy. To my mind, that's how NOT to do it.
exactly
I agree on the principle. The execution has been so poor in my experience that skipping just is my preference.
Mileage will vary.
Where sex is concerned, less is more as far as I'm concerned. Feature it because it's part of life, that's acceptable, but we don't need to know too much
In "Homecoming", a sex scene is handled perfectly. Harry Kim and his old flame Libby are on a trip together. The house they're in has only one bedroom, but Harry explains that he can give her the bed while he sleeps on the daybed in another room. Of course, in the course of the evening, they spend more time together, and old feelings flare back to life. And the book tells us that: "Nobody slept on the daybed that night."
It's simple, it's not graphic, and it tells us everything we need to know.
In "Homecoming", a sex scene is handled perfectly. Harry Kim and his old flame Libby are on a trip together. The house they're in has only one bedroom, but Harry explains that he can give her the bed while he sleeps on the daybed in another room. Of course, in the course of the evening, they spend more time together, and old feelings flare back to life. And the book tells us that: "Nobody slept on the daybed that night."
It's simple, it's not graphic, and it tells us everything we need to know.
And sometimes that's sufficient, and sometimes it's not. Like I said, always a judgment call.
I read a fantasy novel recently in which the actual sex was neatly described by a single line: "And the promise was broken."
Very powerful in context, albeit after two pages of steamy foreplay.
Four minutes from Hitchcock’s Notorious where it sure seems like something is going on.I read a fantasy novel recently in which the actual sex was neatly described by a single line: "And the promise was broken."
Very powerful in context, albeit after two pages of steamy foreplay.
And—oh boy—does it ever advance the plot.
And sometimes that's sufficient, and sometimes it's not. Like I said, always a judgment call.
I read a fantasy novel recently in which the actual sex was neatly described by a single line: "And the promise was broken."
Very powerful in context, albeit after two pages of steamy foreplay.
No one is subtler than Flaubert in "Madame Bovary" about that, he still ended before a tribunal though... This was the 19th century after all.
Most times, the best is left up to one's imagination.
Then let 'er rip.
Then let 'er rip.
I have to agree with the guy in the video. I don't get why people grant so much importance to swearing. I'm much more offended by stupid lines ("I like feeling feelings" was just pure cringe) than lines with swearing.
Especially when it's things like Tilly's line. "This is so fucking cool" harms no one.
I really don't get why people hate expletive attributives directed at no one so much.
Insults are a different matter, but that's because they're insults, therefore aimed at making a person feel worse. You can insult someone greatly without ever using "swear words", anyway.
Clancy's line is also quite understandable in that she's right: it's sheer fucking hubris from Picard, and she's right to be pissed at him.
If I have a problem with that line, it's more about the fact that she's in a professional situation, so she should control her emotions better and be more diplomatic in her refusal... but the "fucking" isn't the problem. "Sheer hubris" would've been the same in that respect, just a bit less emphatic. Though "sheer" is also there for emphasis. In fact, that's a good point: it fulfils the same role as "fucking" here, yet no one objects.
Taboo words are just silly, it depends how they're used (yes, even that one word Americans are supposed to never say - and that I'll avoid saying in order not to disturb the hornet nest).
Especially when it's things like Tilly's line. "This is so fucking cool" harms no one.
I really don't get why people hate expletive attributives directed at no one so much.
Insults are a different matter, but that's because they're insults, therefore aimed at making a person feel worse. You can insult someone greatly without ever using "swear words", anyway.
Clancy's line is also quite understandable in that she's right: it's sheer fucking hubris from Picard, and she's right to be pissed at him.
If I have a problem with that line, it's more about the fact that she's in a professional situation, so she should control her emotions better and be more diplomatic in her refusal... but the "fucking" isn't the problem. "Sheer hubris" would've been the same in that respect, just a bit less emphatic. Though "sheer" is also there for emphasis. In fact, that's a good point: it fulfils the same role as "fucking" here, yet no one objects.
Taboo words are just silly, it depends how they're used (yes, even that one word Americans are supposed to never say - and that I'll avoid saying in order not to disturb the hornet nest).
Don’t forget old sex.
I’ve rubbed more icy/hot on my lady friend than KY…which can actually be counterproductive. Our relationship started like most marriages end in terms of meeting up once and awhile. The “I love you, but I can’t stand you” kind of thing.
She actually wanted to go to sleep (poor thing drove a school bus) and I was going to finish myself off when what I thought was lube in the dark turned out to lice shampoo she kept for the young’ uns and…well…that’s a whole n’other tale of hurt.
The things that happen to me…
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