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Supernatural5x18"Point of No Return" spoilerish/discussion

We'll have to disagree, Star Trek Watcher. I think SPN continues to be a great show. In all fairness, you seem to burn out on most shows except Lost.
I expect shows to be great and consistent LOST just happens to have all the ingredients I look for in a show--great writing, clever mysteries, inventive ideas, great command of plot structure, little filler, urgency and be compelling. If all shows were as excellent as LOST you would hear very little complaining from me.

I don't think I burn out on shows I just don't have patience for middling fare. CAPRICA was plodding with characters I could care less about. I gave it 10 episodes--more than a lot of series get before getting canned--to win me over it didn't so I stopped watching and posting in the forum--why waste any more time on a show that wasn't for me. V was poor in the fall but seems to have found its legs so I'm sticking with it. It isn't earth-shattering but it fills the bill for mindless entertainment. I still enjoy Legend of the Seeker, Fringe isn't as solid as I'd like but it appears to be trying, Vampire Diaries I'm enjoying as much as I ever have. Burn Notice is a decent episodic series. So I haven't abandoned tv shows that entertain me. Maybe I am more demanding as a viewer and maybe shows just aren't as good as they once were.

I used to really like SN but this season has been very underwhelming for me. I understand many still think it is still firing on all cylinders. I'm not trying to impose my will on those people I'm just sharing one person's opinion--mine.
 
And Dean's eyes turning white. He's killed two supernatural creatures now he shouldn't have been able to kill. I guess it's because of his bloodline. Not sure.
I have to disagree on this. In the last episode, Dean was not supposed to be able to kill the whore due to he fact that he wasn't a servant of heaven. I think it was quite clear that during that episode he had finally (internally) decided to be Michael's Condom, thus he was for that time a servant of Heaven.

As for killing Zach, well when we have seen humans use those swords, Angels have taken it seriously (see them back in the 70's as several humans use them), so I would assume you don't have to be a host of heaven to kill with them.
 
It's cool and the gang. That's what these threads are all about. You see, I love Caprica, too. I find the characters fascinating. Maybe I just love broody, mopey character shit above all, but I love it. Vampire Diaries pissed me off because it could be so much more than it is, but Stefan makes me wanna retch he's so effiminate girly teen dreamish. Not for me. The mythology is fairly interesting, but the actors are, IMO, not up to the task by a mile. The only decent cast member is Ian Somerhalder. He's excellent. The others? Teen dream tiger beat mish mash.
 
Yeah too bad Lost isn't consistent (and its a show I do really love, and one that is better then SN, but one that doesn't interest me as much as SN). As they have about 20 - 25 episodes that I don't like at all. Though as you have a fondness for SN first season, Lost is probably my personal example of a show where it's first season is my favorite (and I still like the others to various degrees).

And that's a far better overall production then Supernatural (and it should be). It's got some of the best production values on broadcast tv (and its got the budget to cover that), it gets more prep time (thus more time for script work, and yes they do spend more time on each script then SN can), as a product of the big four it has available more talent (both behind and in front of the camera as it pays more (shows produced for the CW don't have to meet the same guild requirements that the big four have to, so their base rate for salary on things like actors, writers, directors is about 75% of what the big four offer at a base rate. And of course sense Lost has one of the largest budgets for scripted hours it can afford to get both a larger staff, actors of higher caliber and keep them available year after year for guest roles.

Now I am not saying money makes a great show (because we have thousands of tv shows that tell us different, Look at Heroes to see this example). But when you do have a strong premise and start out of the gate strong (with good writers, good directors, good actors) it makes it that much easier to keep getting good talent. Being so successful keeps the studio interference to a minimum.

What is a better idea is to compare SN to shows that are produced with limited resources (and their are quality shows that this does occur with). We have for example lost both writers and directors not because they didn't like the show, but because other higher paying options (not to mention there is an stigma in the industry for working on a syndicated show or a something like the CW), was the primary reason for them leave (which hey I understand I have changed jobs in the same field due to one offering a considerable pay raise). Compare that to a show like Lost where really the only higher paying ground is film.

One of the other strengths of lost (or a show like BSG) is their extensive cast. Now as a viewer that (especially for Lost) can be a serious drawback as their format for most of the years provides those individuals with specific episodes fully devoted to them. And if its a character you have no interest in, then an episode focused on them and their back, side or future story is probably going to be a negative to you.

Having a larger cast also allows actors the ability to avoid getting burnt out. Not on their job, but being so tired that they can't focus as much as we might like.

A typical week for a lead in lost could be as little as one day that week to 5. With hours being anywhere from 5 hours to 14 hour days.

SN has with only a handful of exceptions had the guys working 6 days with 8 - 16 hour days being typical.

Even the X-Files didn't have the problem as they often kept Mulder and Scully separate just to keep the number of hours they had to work down to a manageable level. Though of course on occasion that exhaustion can play into at times.

I guess my point is that I don't hold (insert name of a great show) as the standard for what I expect shows to produce. I try and look at the whole medium (and I do watch at least one of every show offered on network tv, at least once) and judge that (and in my opinion most is crap) so when for me any show can produce mostly average or better, then thats a good show.

Take for example I watched (I had some kids over for a while) 4 episodes of this season's Smallville. And I couldn't believe how bad it was. This was a show that I never loved, but early on found charming. But Yikes.
 
Jared and his wife were in Germany as late as the 10th of April. I hope they had a flight home or they're still there taking in vivid red sunsets.

Meh. I haven't liked Lost since I gave up on it in season two.
 
The reason I constantly bring up LOST is that I found it to be one of the truly great series I've ever seen. It just impresses on so many levels and that can't help but spoil me a little in what I expect out of other shows.

Lost, like SN, had the constant guiding vision of the same people over its lifetime. Lost is by no means perfect. But it is as close to perfect as I've seen. It had its slump in season two but it recovered nicely from it and since season 3 up until season 6 in my opinion has been the most consistent series ever in terms of producing solidly good to great episodes week in and week out.

Rarely have I felt like the writers were stretching out the seasons due to a lack of material to sustain the year like say ENT's third season or nBSG last few seasons where those shows would definitely have benefitted from truncated seasons rather than supplementing the more interesting mythology arc episodes with those less interesting filler hours.

It was actually the opposite with LOST where it felt like they had far too much ground to cover. The writers don't sit on their hands they get down to work and don't waste a single second of screentime. Every episode feels possessed and driven--fast-paced covering numerous threads constantly, feverishly providing exposition, introducing characters, introducing mysteries, adding new clues and pieces of the puzzle to the mix, always advancing the plot, maddeningly weaving in and out of stories, setting up everything. There is an urgency to LOST that I have rarely encountered in terms of narrative purpose. The only other show that comes close was season one of Heroes.

Yes I'll be the first to agree that the series drew things out but in hindsight you can see why it was necessary--the show is so interconnected that the writers had to methodically time when they revealed things otherwise it would have spoiled what was to come. The writers had to introduce something and stop short of going any further, set it aside and then proceed working on another part of the Big Picture then set it aside and work on yet another section and in that regard I would call them architects. And as the show nears the finishing line you can see how carefully everything was mapped out in the writers' minds--they knew what they wanted to cover in each season and when the revelations should be unveiled to the audience. You can see how they carefully almost Tetris-like would drop in place a key piece of the puzzle that suddenly unified several seemingly disparate threads and smoothed the frayed edges by bring them in line settling a particular unfinished piece of the puzzle. To me that is truly impressive. One criticism I do have is the series covers so much in an hour jumping around from thread to thread that I sometimes regret that it doesn't stop and take the time to give some depth to the thread but I long ago accepted that everything is in service of the Bigger Story that is the series and any additional depth I want to inject will be up to me filling in the blanks.

And what I find so impressive is how beautifully intricate the show is when you step back and retrace all the various character paths and histories. And it was the kind of heavily serialized drama I'd been clamoring for years--LOST showed you could do all mythology all the time and it work. I always hated when shows like DS9 would leave the Dominion war alone for nearly entire seasons but with LOST I get all mythology, all core material all the time. Every thread is about the arc. In fact, the one hazard with arc storytelling is inevitably having a weak thread(s) that are less interesting than others but LOST has managed to make the alternating threads interesting and because of this I would argue that LOST is the most consistent series with the weakest episode being merely average--always of course a Kate or Jack/Kate episode--otherwise the rest range from solid to great to excellent.

It demonstrated how expertly the writers could juggle not just two or three separate threads but several within an hour. Their seasons were also self-contained with its own set of guest characters and specific elements to focus on yet marvelously threaded into the much larger Tapestry.

It has just been a series that has been a great reward to watch every week and a thrill ride to watch waiting to see what happened next, how characters would cross paths, what shocking plot revelations were up the writers' sleeves, what secret character connections there were, seeing the writers capturing all the character reactions and remembering all the details like who knew what when. It was a series I have probably invested more time in than I normally would have analyzing, picking apart, looking for subtleties weaved in by the writers but it was the worth it given the extra effort the writers put into it.

I also appreciated how it ushered in a whole new brand of storytelling where things weren't answered immediately, the narrative was non-linear which was something we had to become accustomed. The series saw an episode as merely a piece of a larger puzzle and its purpose was to contribute various individual pieces to the building Big Picture. Its interconnected nature offered numerous ways to examine storylines and character histories. The show provided some of the best in tv history cliffhangers and twists that I know I never saw coming.

So has LOST spoiled me? Of course. Do I penalize other series that don't emulate it? Nope.

The issues I have with SN have nothing to do with LOST but rather the perceived weakness I have for it. Is a limited budget going to affect the show? Yes. Am I disappointed that it isn't as strong on plot as I would like? Yes. But I've watched plenty of shows--not for action, eye candy, fight sequences, location shoots etc--for just their quiet intimate low-key non-ambitious character drama and I honestly feel SN often misses the mark for me as a viewer. I'll be the first to admit I will never love these characters the way mswood, Dorian or the big Dean contingent or Sam girls do--I connected with them early on and over the years that connection has weakened for a variety of reasons. So when you are doing character stories when that investment isn't there it is going to factor into how much I enjoyed a particular episode as well as how much the other factors--like budget, plot etc--are going to bother me. If I enjoy the episode I'm not going to be bothered much by limited budget for instance as I would if I was bored the entire time.

I only post here to provide another perspective. Afterall that is the point of discussion threads. Otherwise they'd be pointless if they were a unified chorus. I don't go into any episode of any show with a checklist of what must be present for me to enjoy it. That's why I avoid trailers, spoilers, leaked script sides, podcasts, leaked clips taken out of context and why I never read a thread until I've seen the episode and typed up my opinion & posted it etc because I want to go in unsoiled by expectations one way or the other.
 
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For myself, Lost a show that is very well done, on a purely character level is very hit and miss for me (again that is something with such a large cast, and one that gets features everyone), that I don't connect with a majority of the regulars (though there are a few I really do). But its strong direction, and production and often writing in general usually keeps me glued to it (minus the about a third of the 2nd season and the first 5 of the 3rd). Then take a show like the Sopranos, which I didn't like a single character (not a one), yet I could see it was a well crafted, well directed show that appealed not a damn bit to me.

And yeah the single biggest appeal for me on the show is the two characters, and it wasn't how it started out. I started out just watching it and finding it divertingly entertaining. But by teh end of the first season (even with a bunch of episode that I found all over the place), the show became must see tv for me. And I realized how much I was into the characters when watching In My Time of Dying, the episode as a few tiny problems with it, but the heart of the episode is absolutely stellar. And its not the plot, it was all the character work.

And for myself rarely does the show not deliver something int he character department (Hi Changing Channels, you SUCK!!). THough I also admit that I think overall the character work is worse then season 4 (my favorite on that front as well, though character work in season 2 was really pretty consistently strong as well). SO I would like to see a bit of improvement.

THe best example of this season that really should have been far, far better to me isn't last week's (though I thought it could be sharper), but the episode in the institution was just begging to be an in depth character study and basically they just handed the information (that we should have seen presented in an organic manner) just told to us like we were idiots.
 
I am less thrilled with you at Lost as I find the characters often not behaving logically. I am always going why isn't someone doing this...... But I do appreciate the larger tapestry they have woven (something that is a great treat), as for dragging things out, as long as its done logically or at least consistent (not just with one or two characters, but all of them on the Island, my biggest fault) within the larger framework of all survivors. Slow I don't mind. In fact pacing wise, I had real problems with season 5 as I hated that it all basically occurred over a handful of days. I don't fell like they let the episodes in that season fully breathe. I still like it, but I really felt that having a shorter season really hurt that season.

I still say the Wire is far superior show, though I admit that most people would never, ever want to watch that show.

One of the things though about lost that we should truly be thankful for is that out of the gate it was so successful that the network didn't try and interfere with it. Many shows that I have loved over the years have disappointed me not just due to the writer/ acting/ production but due to the interference of rules placed upon the production by the studio.

You mention DS9, and hell studio rules, no 3 or more parters, kill the Bajorean political stories, then kill the Bajorean religious stories, ect, ect. Al mandates from the studio about what type of shows you can or can't make.

For SN they will never be allowed to have a fully serialized show, the best they will ever be allowed to do is a the current mix, a few heavy myth based episodes, then try and tie the character arcs to separate individual story lines. There is a huge fear in the media that serialization really hurts not only ratings but the syndication value of shows (and this does appear to be accurate in general). I mean even Lost a show that has done it all along, has one had a huge drop in ratings over its 6 years (though of course it started so exceptionally strong) that even today at least in the demo they are doing very well.
 
For myself, Lost a show that is very well done, on a purely character level is very hit and miss for me (again that is something with such a large cast, and one that gets features everyone), that I don't connect with a majority of the regulars (though there are a few I really do).
I'll agree the characters aren't very deep and the connection isn't as strong as with characters on other shows. LOST excels in the plot department. It is mainly plot-driven and throws in the occasional character moment. The characters are there mainly in service of the plot--providing exposition, reactions, being action figures, asking questions aloud the audience have. LOST is all about objective storytelling where you as a viewer pans around this big narrative landscape peaking briefly into a slice of an event or a characters' life. A lot of scenes are less about the character reactions to certain revelations--in many cases characters never learn of a revelation--it is there for the viewer's benefit and their reaction to the new piece of information--they just exist as a means to facilitate it. So as long as the characters are likeable enough--which most are--that is adequate for a show like this. The writers wisely make up for any character shortcomings with their intriguing/inventive mysteries, twists, cliffhangers, narrative structure, pace which is really what keeps people coming back. Also their expansive cast of characters allows them to throw out a wide net so that if you don't like a character the story won't linger on them that much in a given season.

Also between the writers enjoying trying all sorts of permutations on character pairings and so many characters on the show--you don't really get those quality scenes like older shows had where the same characters were written together and given more depth to their scenes week in and week out.
Then take a show like the Sopranos, which I didn't like a single character (not a one), yet I could see it was a well crafted, well directed show that appealed not a damn bit to me.
I agree with you here as well. Sopranos' subject matter never appealed to me. So I stopped watching it despite all the buzz around it.
And for myself rarely does the show not deliver something int he character department (Hi Changing Channels, you SUCK!!).
Yes it does but an isolated scene or two will never ever be enough for me to salvage an episode.
In fact pacing wise, I had real problems with season 5 as I hated that it all basically occurred over a handful of days. I don't fell like they let the episodes in that season fully breathe. I still like it, but I really felt that having a shorter season really hurt that season.
I personally really enjoyed season 5--a very tightly written season chocked full of lots of interesting revelations and very effectively pulled together a myriad of pieces established in the first 4 seasons and tied them together beautifully while setting up the final pieces as well as establishing a beautiful timeline/history for the island & its inhabitants . The brisk pacing and the tendency not to really dwell on any one thing for too long is just LOST's style--like I mentioned earlier it is all about servicing the bigger picture and forging ahead feverishly--no time to stop and smell the roses-- a show like this really expects the viewers to provide the depth and fill in the margins as it were. LOST doesn't do those big build-ups the way some traditional dramas would but then again those shows usually centered around one or two ongoing threads--LOST a lot of times doesn't make a big production out of something they just drop it in your lap and move on to the next. And as we were talking about the characters they too are all about servicing the story--deaths of characters are sometimes just a mere footnote--since they are about writing out a character who the writers-acting much like the island--feel have served their purpose and are no longer needed. The deaths aren't the big events they once were on tv shows.

Also scenes these days have so much going on in them that you have to rewatch them a few times to appreciate all the dynamic at play among the characters, their histories together, what they know or don't know vs the audience. Writers don't really acknowledge it they expect you to catch all of the nuance.

It sorta bothered me but after Heroes season one, LOST, I got used to it. Heck even SN does this sometimes probably due to only having 39 minutes or so to tell a story these days so I guess writers just figure we'll do the rest --I'm used to it.
 
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It was okay I guess. But I expected more from the 100th episode, something like The Song Remains the Same probably would have been the better choice.

I was never a fan of Adam. The whole third brother concept had always felt too fanfic. The episode was pretty slow. However, I really think Kurt Fuller did a great job as Zachariah and he got a fitting end. Cas was also badass.

Hopefully the next four episodes episode are awesome. This season really deserves a strong finish.
 
I don't know why people expect anything special just because it happens of what episode number it is. It was a decent episode, just like most of the show's episodes. This one was Castielicious. Not only did we get a fun bit of humor of him on the cellphone, but we got to see him slap Dean around for being a douchebag AND we got to see him show just how badass he really is in a fight.

It's really telling about him as a person, too, by how he's acting despite having lost most of his faith in God. He's still trying to do the right thing, and he's still willing to put his life on the line to do it. That's what makes him a hero in my opinion. And if God can be snapped out of his depression, Castiel is the one who's going to do it through his actions.
 
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