Supernatural 6x5 "Live Free or Twi Hard" spoiler/discussion thread

[Captain Mike]

WTF???? Sam just stood there...... What the hell is wrong with Sam? It's like he was clinically detached.

I like it.

What was with that "smirky" smile is what I wanna know. And now thanks to the vision Dean had while regurgitating the "cure" we all know he saw it.....

 

[Lt. Trull]

Oh crap...another parodying episode--this time directed at vampires.

Then I'm sure if the entire thing isn't a total farce we'll get treated to a more serious story halfway in. Where did my Supernatural go?

episode's over watcher... do you still have the same opinion

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Oh, some of the Sam girls at TWOP are in a mood. Sam has "Satan cooties."

 

[auntiehill]

I liked this episode; the evil smirk as he watched Dean get turned--that was cold.

SO very interested to see where they go from here.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Thank god--it wasn't a parody episode. That certainly helped things out. It was decent enough but the early passages were a little slow to sit through--the teaser, Dean and Sam at the bar, Dean and Sam in the girl's Twilight plastered room. Things picked up at the point Dean was turned.

I'm sure the Lisa/Dean scene was meant to be more powerful than it was but I just really don't give a crap about their relationship or Lisa as a character. I thought things could have been a bit more interesting at the vamp lair but was fairly ho-hum with the requisite bloody fighting. I also don't care for the forced way the show just goes out of its way to be gorey--it comes across like the producers saying look what we just did are you grossed out--rather than feeling natural and not so much in your face.

But the interesting thing is I used to really not like Dean in season 3 and portions of season 2 and now I like Dean and can't stand Sam--Jared's acting certainly hasn't helped. I've seen actors/actresses who really send chills up your spine taking on a more sinister persona that is so far removed from their normal more "goody two shoes" one and it is sooooooo good you do a double take but Jared, for me, just can't nail it.

I'd give it a B-. Not bad.

 

[mswood]

Ok, I really liked that one. Really, really liked it.

This was the first episode this season where I thought the atmosphere was solid for the full episode, where I was fascinated by the "monster of the week". That I thought all the actors were doing solid or better work. The dialogue was appropriate for the situations, lighter at the start of the episode and once the drama starts to hit, it's gone.

I like that they really aren't forgetting about Lisa and Ben. And while I still am not emotionally connected to Lisa or Ben, I am connected to Dean's bond with them and his situation.

Samuel for the first time gelled for me, perhaps because of the actor and perhaps because we weren't surrounded by Campbell's. He also for the first time comes across as not a bad guy. And I like that. While I don't like him or trust him, I think we need to see other shades to the character so that was nice.

Jensen did some really solid work here. Very nicely done.

Sam, what a twisted cold bastard. I am very, very curious now, far more then before. Not only at how far Sam was willing to go to get the results he wanted, but the almost curious malefic glee he took in watching it unfold. This was also the first episode this season that I really dug Jared's acting. Frankly Jared been able to play straight out menace well before (Born Under a Bad Sign, and several episodes in seasons 4), but this more dispassionate portrayal has left me for the most part unsure of the characterization. But this time, I really, really liked it.

As far as the gore, I was pleasantly surprised by the restraint. As I expected fountains of blood flowing, but most of it was only used after the fact around the decapitated bodies (where it should be).

Nice for them to show that the goth scene is fairly accepting of homosexuality, and that guys and kiss in public. And I liked the guys reactions to this as well, as for the most part the guys are a little conservative in that regard so it fits.

The only scene (and its brief) that didn't work for me was when Dean deep in the nest is about to stab his sire with the dead man's blood. Seriously how stupid is Dean. There are Vamps all around you, so lets attack the sire right in front of them. I mean he was already taking Dean away for some alone time, just go with him you idiot.

One thing I would have liked to see, is some comment about knowing what its like to be drawn to blood.

Oh and for the first time (based on Production Order) I like a sixth season episode more then the 5th produced episode of any other season of Supernatural.
Phantom Traveller
Simon Said
Bedtime Stories
Metamorphosis
Fallen Idols

So thats something for this season at least. Oh and in my book its a A-. I really liked it.

 

[Snaploud]

I like how they're finally selling us on this season's story arc. The last couple episodes have really upped my interest level.

 

[AJBryant]

WTF???? Sam just stood there...... What the hell is wrong with Sam? It's like he was clinically detached.

I like it.

And he SMILED.

Something is up. He KNEW there was a cure. But says he didn't.

Sam has an ulterior motive. The bastige.

 

[Aragorn]

Lucifer made Sam watch "Young MacGyver" while down in hell. That's worse than everything that happened to Dean while there, which explains why Sam is the way he currently is.

 

[Dream]

That was great. Dean killing the entire vampire nest was awesome!

 

[Othello]

I thought it was a pretty good episode. Not liking ti as much as others here but I fell asleep and had to rewind so maybe that spoiled it a bit for me.

Loved that sam is all dark and twisted and it REALLY has me excited to watch where it goes from here.

Now.. I have a real temptation to rip into mswood, who's reviews and opinions I normally really like, for the total rip job on TVD but I'll refrain.

 

[mswood]

Seriously. Someone wnats to defend VD.

Simply put there is no rational reason on that show why Elena would let Damon live. She's an orphan, who had close up views of her adoptive parents dying in front of her. She has seen her brother nearly die and be targeted for death already. She has seen people she knows and who are close to her family be killed by Damon, and she gets to watch this being who she utterly knows is a killer. He has killed for funs, for malice, for thrill and for hunger. And he snaps her brothers neck in front of her eyes, and keeps threatening harm to her and her family.

Sorry but for her to be a real character she would watch that SOB die. Period.

Put it in real life terms if some one took a shot at your family, and kept the gun out and kept threatening your family and you saw some one (who also had good reason to see him die) start to kill him, your telling me you would stop that person? Seriously?

Its one thing to have a stupid plot in an episode here or there, or to have dialogue that isn't appropriate to a character's voice. But when you take a character and make them a joke, especially in what should be some of the most dramatic and hard hitting moments for that character you have ruined that character.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Yes I want to defend TVD. I enjoy it far more than SN and in its first two seasons it is more consistent that SN was.

I have no problem with Elena not wanting to destroy Damon--she clearly has conflicted feelings toward him. Her brother survived and at the end of the day she strikes me as the kind of person that doesn't want to see anyone die--whether they are good or some homocidal maniac. Now had he actually succeeded in killing Jeremy then I'd have a much bigger issue with her being conflicted.

I honestly don't see this as an issue that would destroy one's ability to enjoy the show. It is one part of a much larger tapestry that even if one was to be bothered by it and doesn't want to go to the trouble to rationalize her behavior there is plenty of other stuff to enjoy. That is my problem with SN it relies too much on the brothers to anchor the show and as a result if they act like idiots or don't hold my interest or the writers fixate on their angst it just pretty much leaves me with nothing else to grab onto.

I still stand by my earlier remarks--TVD is one of the better and more consistently entertaining shows on tv that has a nice cast of characters, takes itself seriously, balances character and plot, has developed an intriguing mythology that isn't overly complicated and has solid writing. It was my favorite show last year along with The Legend of the Seeker and so far this season it is leading the pack as well. I'll certainly take it over crap like Caprica, V, Smallville or SGU.

 

[mswood]

Sorry startrekwatcher but the heart of a show is the characters. Even in plot heavy shows like Lost the heart is the characters. The rest is simply window dressing. Heck the plot for shows is just there to bring forth the drama of the characters.

And yeah VD really, really shoot itself in the foot. I mean seriously if you put yourself in the characters situation you would let this killer continue to harm your community and your family? It's the main character for heaven's sake. THis is a character that knows death. Who's family has already been taken from her. Sure if she was spelled, or possessed, or enthralled then her reaction would have a legitimate excuse, but she wasn't. Nor has she been shown to oppose any form of lethal measures.

Put it into SN examples, Bela is an annoyance that puts them indirectly into danger, and Dean wants her Dead. When she makes an attempt on them, Dean takes away her protection from Hell Hounds. He basically opens the door for her to be dragged into eternal torment.

Gordon takes shot at Sam, and yeah Dean tries to kill him, there is no halfway. He's dead.

Dean is convinced that Ruby is warping his brother (or at the least clouding Sam judgment) and he tries to kill her several times.

Its things like that that ground SN, even in poor episodes. Now all shows do mess up characters from time to time, but this wasn't some minor scene. This wasn't a break the fourth wall type show. This was one of the primary relationships of the main character and it wasn't believable in the slightest.

The next episode I watched, I just couldn't even listen the character.The character of Elena died to me. Now I all I saw was the actress. It took the emotional grounding away from the show.

Look at LOTR, its high fantasy with mythic creatures, and settings, but they always tried to keep the characters as the grounding element. Once you lose that all you have left is set pieces. You might as well watch Willow.

 

[mswood]

Oh and the Sam and Dean and their relationship is the heart and grounding material of Supernatural. And has always been. Everything else on this show is just window dressing.

As for their humor, usually I have no problem with their day to day humor (as for the most part their humor feels authentic), and there is never to much angst. As these characters should be swimming in angst.

Hell even in their "comedy" episodes where the are deliberately pushing the fourth wall, the show still treats their relationship as fairly believable.

I mean look at Tall Tales, Hollywood Babylon, Ghostfacers, Mystery Spot, Monster Movie, The Monster at the End of the Book, The Real Ghostbusters, and Changing Channels. All of those episodes still treat the core relationship between Sam & Dean. Some of those episodes I love some I like, some I didn't care for some I hated, yet they all still didn't throw away the primary relationship of the show.

For this show thats usually the one aspect that they get right week after week. Even in their crap episodes.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Well looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No one is right or wrong. Every individual is going to have a different level of interest in characters. It all comes down to the actor, the viewer, the writing, the character--there is just a certain chemistry there that causes one to like or dislike a character.

For me Sam and Dean have always been hit-or-miss--I've never been consistently invested in them except the first season--one season I like Dean then the next I don't. Right now I'm just more interested in TVD cast. It isn't going to revolutionize anything but it is a fun ride and these days that's a rarity when it comes to entertainment.

The angst was alright for a while but now for me it has gotten tiresome. I don't mind issues or conflict to exist between characters but there comes a point where it just wears thin--and for me the brothers constant mistrust that drives the last few seasons has to me gotten repetitive.

I would also argue that characters are an important part of a series but the plot is just as important. I want it all--interesting characters, interesting fresh stories, action, twists, surprises, consistency, solid writing. Yes, SN can sometimes have nice character stuff but when I watch an episode of a tv show I judge the whole body of the hour and not just one aspect. I can't just forget predictable action sequences, false jeopardy, stale supernatural plots, or annoying humor.

In recent years it seems it has become a struggle for writers to balance all these aspects leading to a decade of recycled stories, uneven shows that can't seem to put out 4 or 5 solid seasons in their runs, overly complicated and muddled mythologies, deaths that fail to resonate because they only exist for shock value, an over reliance on pretentiousness, moodiness and angst. Shows 10, 15 years ago were simply better put together than they have become in recent years in my opinion.

 

[Dream]

I don't want to turn this into a Supernatural vs Vampire Diaries topic, but I want to comment a little on TVD.

Damon has stopped being the bad guy for a while now. He has stepped up to become the anti-hero of the series. I don't remember the last time he attacked a human for blood. Should Damon have been punished a long time ago for his crimes? Yeah, probably. But realistically the writers are never going to kill Damon, one of the most popular characters on the show. He has a huge female fanbase mostly because of what Ian does for the character.

What I like about TVD is that it is mostly serious, they don't have goofy humor episodes. They have developed their own mythology quite nicely and there are also no bad actors on the show. From what I've seen, the show is a big improvement over the books.

TVD actually has a strong female cast, which Supernatural has a problem with, since most of the girls they have are evil or eventually end up dead. Elena is actually a pretty good main female character, unlike Bella from Twilight. Bonnie can kill Stefan and Damon with a thought if she really wanted to. Also the fanbase has really been loving what the writers are doing with Caroline this season.

 

[mswood]

I don't want to turn this into a Supernatural vs Vampire Diaries topic, but I want to comment a little on TVD.

Damon has stopped being the bad guy for a while now. He has stepped up to become the anti-hero of the series. I don't remember the last time he attacked a human for blood. Should Damon have been punished a long time ago for his crimes? Yeah, probably. But realistically the writers are never going to kill Damon, one of the most popular characters on the show. He has a huge female fanbase mostly because of what Ian does for the character.

What I like about TVD is that it is mostly serious, they don't have goofy humor episodes. They have developed their own mythology quite nicely and there are also no bad actors on the show. From what I've seen, the show is a big improvement over the books.

TVD actually has a strong female cast, which Supernatural has a problem with, since most of the girls they have are evil or eventually end up dead. Elena is actually a pretty good main female character, unlike Bella from Twilight. Bonnie can kill Stefan and Damon with a thought if she really wanted to. Also the fanbase has really been loving what the writers are doing with Caroline this season.

I love the atmosphere on the show, and I love Ian and I like how he plays his character. I have to disagree about the quality of some of the actors. As I don't care for the actress who plays Bonnie or the werewolf in the making. I liked Jared season one better then those two (and I really didn't like Jared season one).

The whole point isn't that they are trying to change Ian's character he should have never been written going so far, that the only logical and rational course is to kill him.

And sorry the excuse he hasn't drank (to kill) lately doesn't wash. You have a serial killer who you don't see kill for 6 months do you give them the benefit of the doubt? Seriously, you can't rationalize that. For the bulk of his existence he has been a killer. No rational being would forgive or forget that.

And Elena's reaction (and to a few other events) isn't an example of a strong character. Sorry it isn't.

And Supernatural has had several strong female characters, it shouldn't matter that they are killed off or only appeared in one episode. VD is set in one primary location, they should have a large staple of characters to interact with. SN is a show set on the road, as such it wouldn't have much reoccurring roles. And with its exceptionally high body count almost every character is killed off. Most are either killed, or no longer in on earth's plane of existence.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Elena on VDiaries is not a strong female character. Give me Jo and Ellen Harvell, who died as soldiers, ANY. DAY.

Seriously, you can't rationalize that. For the bulk of his existence he has been a killer. No rational being would forgive or forget that

Silly goose. You know being hot excuses brutal murders. Damon is hot, you silly goose.

 

[Dream]

Elena isn't a badass as the Harvells, obviously since she isn't a hunter, but she does pretty well for a normal girl surrounded by monsters.