LeahBoBo
Commander
I liked that line, too. It cracked me up when Dean whipped out his knife and started slicing hunks of meat off the thing.
Supernatural 5x6"I Believe the Children Are Our Future" spoilerish
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
I have never said Castiel wasn't manipulated (I even state that Castiel most likely wasn't aware of the manipulation until towards the end of the season), but yes at some point he absolutely was aware.
And even if Castiel utterly in the dark over every single event until the moment Zachariah told Dean (and face it Castiel doesn't show shock at this news), he still absolutely knows that Sam was lied and manipulated. Even if it is solely due to hindsight (which it clearly wasn't at least at the very end if nothing else).
And as such his claim about Sam making an informed, yet wrong choice is still an out and out falsehood.
Checkmate
Castiel didn't seem too freaked out by any other form of ability gifted by demons (such as witchcraft), in "In the Beginning" it was all about showing Dean 3 things. One that Sam is doing something he shouldn't be, that Castiel (and Heaven itself) doesn't know what Azazel's end game was (this was a lie, and at what point Castiel is told the truth is not clear but it has to happen before Dean discovers the truth). And while of course he doesn't like anything to do with demons, Castiel seems especially against Sam's abilities. So it leads more credence that its Sam's unknown role (and its connection to a powerful demon) that has him up in arms.
Is Castiel the best example of an angel we have seen? Probably, at least with a speaking part.
Is Castiel currently working with Dean and Sam, yeap no question (already stated that I like them as comrades or allies).
Well see this is where you get into trouble. Castiel is a black and white kind of guy (the Winchesters not so much) and that, that has the potential to utterly doom them. Castiel is not human, he likes humanity (because like all things its part of God's creation). But the minute his goals and the guys don't match, then all bets are off. As for being a bad person, you are right, he isn't. He isn't a person.
I do agree about him being upset about the events that have happened, and I hope (though we really haven't seen much evidence of this, hopefully something they will develop) that he is now holding himself to blame for it.
THough so far, he has blamed Dean for being to slow to stop Sam (when hello if you would have acted sooner.....), and Sam (and hello you shouldn't have freed him.....).
But hopefully we will get to see him, take responsibility and admit his own failings on this manner.
Castiel didn't seem too freaked out by any other form of ability gifted by demons (such as witchcraft), in "In the Beginning" it was all about showing Dean 3 things. One that Sam is doing something he shouldn't be, that Castiel (and Heaven itself) doesn't know what Azazel's end game was (this was a lie, and at what point Castiel is told the truth is not clear but it has to happen before Dean discovers the truth). And while of course he doesn't like anything to do with demons, Castiel seems especially against Sam's abilities. So it leads more credence that its Sam's unknown role (and its connection to a powerful demon) that has him up in arms.
Is Castiel the best example of an angel we have seen? Probably, at least with a speaking part.
Is Castiel currently working with Dean and Sam, yeap no question (already stated that I like them as comrades or allies).
Well see this is where you get into trouble. Castiel is a black and white kind of guy (the Winchesters not so much) and that, that has the potential to utterly doom them. Castiel is not human, he likes humanity (because like all things its part of God's creation). But the minute his goals and the guys don't match, then all bets are off. As for being a bad person, you are right, he isn't. He isn't a person.
I do agree about him being upset about the events that have happened, and I hope (though we really haven't seen much evidence of this, hopefully something they will develop) that he is now holding himself to blame for it.
THough so far, he has blamed Dean for being to slow to stop Sam (when hello if you would have acted sooner.....), and Sam (and hello you shouldn't have freed him.....).
But hopefully we will get to see him, take responsibility and admit his own failings on this manner.
LeahBoBo
I used Lucifer and his first host, because out of the initial interactions between human and Angels, his (so far with what we know) was the most honest. Was it still manipulation, of course. But you can use facts, and be manipulated someone. One doesn't have to lie to manipulate.
On my point that you didn't understand. The writers use Castiel confronting Sam, about his wrong choices and why telling the kid the truth (at least as much as they are aware) is not a viable option.
My point is that since Castiel is completely aware that Sam never was told the truth, then one can't truly judge his choice as wrong, since it wasn't an informed choice.
Meaning that if Castiel believed Sam made an informed choice, then Castiel is a fool or a liar. Since I don't believe Castiel is a fool, it leaves us with Castiel manipulating Sam's guilt to try and convince both brothers to kill the child. But his point is based on the lie that Sam made an informed choice.
AS to wanting Castiel humbed, and while it is true that does put human perceptions to what I would like to see happen to Castiel. It also fits both biblical stories and Supernaturals own mythology of Angels and demons. Haven't we already seen Angels' humbled? I mean llok at all the humans emotions we have seen the various angels experience (from Zachariah, Lucifer, Anna, Uriel and Castiel). We have seen many.
I used Lucifer and his first host, because out of the initial interactions between human and Angels, his (so far with what we know) was the most honest. Was it still manipulation, of course. But you can use facts, and be manipulated someone. One doesn't have to lie to manipulate.
On my point that you didn't understand. The writers use Castiel confronting Sam, about his wrong choices and why telling the kid the truth (at least as much as they are aware) is not a viable option.
My point is that since Castiel is completely aware that Sam never was told the truth, then one can't truly judge his choice as wrong, since it wasn't an informed choice.
Meaning that if Castiel believed Sam made an informed choice, then Castiel is a fool or a liar. Since I don't believe Castiel is a fool, it leaves us with Castiel manipulating Sam's guilt to try and convince both brothers to kill the child. But his point is based on the lie that Sam made an informed choice.
AS to wanting Castiel humbed, and while it is true that does put human perceptions to what I would like to see happen to Castiel. It also fits both biblical stories and Supernaturals own mythology of Angels and demons. Haven't we already seen Angels' humbled? I mean llok at all the humans emotions we have seen the various angels experience (from Zachariah, Lucifer, Anna, Uriel and Castiel). We have seen many.
Checkmate
Commodore
I didn't say he was freaked out. Cass doesn't freak out very easily at all; he barely shows emotion at all, in fact. He also doesn't go around smiting every single afront to God he comes across. That's, apparently, a task left to humans to perform (else Cass would be out there helping the boys on a regular basis now; something he's never done).
He only steps in when it's something big. Like the Antichrist. Or someone he just found out started the Apocalypse. But again, he believes God Himself saved Sam and, though he despises Sam now more than before, he realizes that this must all be part of God's plan. Why else would He have saved him?
As the loyal and faithful servant of God that he is, Castiel is instead protecting both Sam and Dean and praying that he can learn what it is he is meant to do. To that end, he's out hunting for his Father to try to find meaning in it all. He's lost, but not forsaken or forsaking. And he's certainly not going to go and smite Sam after God rescued him regardless of his personal feelings.
And we see all of this on a regular basis on the show.
Does Castiel really not remind you of someone from the first season? Namely Dean himself? Black-and-white view of the world: Check. Willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done: Check. Out seeking his father: Check. Seeking guidance from anyone he feels he or his Father could trust: Check. Has the entire world against him: Check.
That's no coincidence.
I think we've seen plenty of evidence of how horrible he feels about these events. Especially in the future scene where he's drowned himself in hedonism. Not only did he fail to stop the Apocalypse from starting, but he failed to find his father, to save his brothers and sisters (despite their fall from grace), and he's failed to stop Lucifer. But at no point did he ever give up being who he is. He didn't seek to become a human, it was his "punishment" for failure.
That's the thing. Castiel was being manipulated as much, if not more than, Sam and Dean were. All the way to the end, and when he finally saw the truth, he did everything in his power to stop it -- even dying in the process.
I think Castiel would have a problem if God were to order him to smite Dean. Not that God would order Cas to smite Dean, but Cas obviously isn't bloodthirsty without a second thought or he wouldn't have looked so nervous when approaching Jesse. He would have approached Jesse another way entirely if he'd been gung ho to do the kid in. There are ways to surprise someone and get the job done. Cas was visibly uncomfortable, just as he was visibly tormented after having released Sam. He was upset about the Jesse situation for a number of reasons and that's why he snapped at Sam when Sam was protesting to him. Cas does have a problem with killing humans. He killed angel brethren to protect Sam and Dean; that more than anything else has left him prone to snapping at the both of them when the situation isn't going well. It's an understandable reaction. Castiel has experienced a drastic change in his circumstances. Everything he's ever known has been turned upside down and the Winchesters are all wrapped up in that. They're a focal point of his stress/
At this point, it's easy to gauge that Cas is closer to Dean and has a fondness for him. He's going to be harder on Sam than Dean. That, too, is an understandable reaction if not a fair one.
At this point, it's easy to gauge that Cas is closer to Dean and has a fondness for him. He's going to be harder on Sam than Dean. That, too, is an understandable reaction if not a fair one.
Checkmate I am only judging current Castiel, as we don't know the rest of the events that shaped the future Castiel. For all we know he is just pissed that the Angels departed (we honestly don't know), we don't know if he found god (not mentioned), we simply don't have enough material to judge. Just as I wouldn't judge Sam or Dean either as we don't know what either character experienced.
And we have seen Castiel freaked out (I wasn't implying your usage of the term, its all mine). But Castiel doesn't show much emotions show when we see the cracks thats him actually show fairly strong emotions (what I term being freaked) for him.
And yes Castiel finally at one point did everything in his powers. But the key phrase is "finally at one point". And by watching, we absolutely knew that he wasn't just informed what was going on. He knew at some point before, and did nothing. And that, that is highly in question. I strongly believe (personal opinion) that Castiel knew (certainly before Dean was kidnapped) and probably when he lead Anna into a trap, and when he freed Sam, what was up. It would very much fit with how his character had changed. He not only was cold to Dean, but he also showed doubts about his actions. THough he still did them. And if he was aware at those points, then yeah he didn't just do nothing he actively participated in those events. Even if he only found out mere moments before Dean was kidnapped, he still did nothing (for a brief period of time, enough to have got to Sam before he fought Lilith). Yes I am well aware that when he finally acted to help that it was a huge character moment for him (never questioned that, as the show had build from his park conversation with Dean how he was questioning his orders and duties. THis was again brought up several times with his interactions with Anna, with Uriel and with Dean.As he knows at one point that is his being manipulated, and not by god (this is clear by On the Head of a Pin, great great episode).
As for comparisons to Dean (well Sam actually was the more driven to find Dad, Dean was willing to let Dad do what Dad wanted once he was told, he was the one who would work a case, instead of just getting civilians out of harms way before continuing the search), well there are some, but Dean was never black and white. The only thing that Dean was black and white at this time was that monsters were evil (even with two experiences in the first season with monsters that were helpful). He wasn't willing to due anything to kill YED (shown in two different episodes) wasn't willing to blindly follow Dad's orders. And he never really sought guidance from anyone, the only exception was when John was kidnapped by Meg. But for the entire 21 episodes before that (including periods where he honestly didn't know if John was dead or not) he only called to see if anyone had heard from him. Never sought out help in finding him or guidance. Even over the deepest most personal issues for Dean, we never saw him seek help (Things like Sam's initial visions, something that actually brought him to admit to being afraid. Now Sam, Sam did when things were beyond his ability (Dean dying) Sam did seek out all their contacts for help.
Sam was the one who was more single minded, the more driven, during that time then Dean was. And while Sam was more open minded about monsters and courses of action. WHen it came to the arc of the season (Finding John and finding YED) Sam was the more Black & White of the two.
And we have seen Castiel freaked out (I wasn't implying your usage of the term, its all mine). But Castiel doesn't show much emotions show when we see the cracks thats him actually show fairly strong emotions (what I term being freaked) for him.
And yes Castiel finally at one point did everything in his powers. But the key phrase is "finally at one point". And by watching, we absolutely knew that he wasn't just informed what was going on. He knew at some point before, and did nothing. And that, that is highly in question. I strongly believe (personal opinion) that Castiel knew (certainly before Dean was kidnapped) and probably when he lead Anna into a trap, and when he freed Sam, what was up. It would very much fit with how his character had changed. He not only was cold to Dean, but he also showed doubts about his actions. THough he still did them. And if he was aware at those points, then yeah he didn't just do nothing he actively participated in those events. Even if he only found out mere moments before Dean was kidnapped, he still did nothing (for a brief period of time, enough to have got to Sam before he fought Lilith). Yes I am well aware that when he finally acted to help that it was a huge character moment for him (never questioned that, as the show had build from his park conversation with Dean how he was questioning his orders and duties. THis was again brought up several times with his interactions with Anna, with Uriel and with Dean.As he knows at one point that is his being manipulated, and not by god (this is clear by On the Head of a Pin, great great episode).
As for comparisons to Dean (well Sam actually was the more driven to find Dad, Dean was willing to let Dad do what Dad wanted once he was told, he was the one who would work a case, instead of just getting civilians out of harms way before continuing the search), well there are some, but Dean was never black and white. The only thing that Dean was black and white at this time was that monsters were evil (even with two experiences in the first season with monsters that were helpful). He wasn't willing to due anything to kill YED (shown in two different episodes) wasn't willing to blindly follow Dad's orders. And he never really sought guidance from anyone, the only exception was when John was kidnapped by Meg. But for the entire 21 episodes before that (including periods where he honestly didn't know if John was dead or not) he only called to see if anyone had heard from him. Never sought out help in finding him or guidance. Even over the deepest most personal issues for Dean, we never saw him seek help (Things like Sam's initial visions, something that actually brought him to admit to being afraid. Now Sam, Sam did when things were beyond his ability (Dean dying) Sam did seek out all their contacts for help.
Sam was the one who was more single minded, the more driven, during that time then Dean was. And while Sam was more open minded about monsters and courses of action. WHen it came to the arc of the season (Finding John and finding YED) Sam was the more Black & White of the two.
Oh and I don't think Castiel will ever be placed in a position where he has to truly harm Dean, Sam or humanity (I don't think that is were this season is going). I am just pointing out that has a being who doesn't see humans as important as Dean and Sam do, that if (key word if) he discovered that God did agree with Zachariah's action then he would submit to that will. He probably wouldn't like it, but first and foremost he would follow the will of god. After all the only time he has actually disobeyed is due to the fact that he believed God didn't give the order, that God wasn't aware of the events in question, and that god might even no longer exist.
Again I don't think that's the plan (not at all). But the characters of Dean and Sam have to be aware that is absolutely a possibility.
Again I don't think that's the plan (not at all). But the characters of Dean and Sam have to be aware that is absolutely a possibility.
Actually I don't know if Castiel despises Sam. I don't think we have seen enough to judge that. He clearly has a fondness for Dean (I but I wouldn't say a friendship). But for most of the 4th season I don't think Castiel understood Sam.
It is funny though in this last episode Castiel actually (before insulting Sam) actually proves Sam's primary motivation. That Sam would have done anything to Stop the the coming war (and at the time that was stopping Lillith). I mean we have seen Castiel shocked (or terrified or awed you pick) by Sam, we him leery of Sam, we have seen him disgusted by Sam, but I haven't seen hatred towards him.
I think with him saying how Sam was willing to do anything to stop Lucifer rising, that he does honestly understand Sam a lot better then he earlier did. Has someone who was manipulated and lied to, he should be well aware of how that changes your actions.
It is funny though in this last episode Castiel actually (before insulting Sam) actually proves Sam's primary motivation. That Sam would have done anything to Stop the the coming war (and at the time that was stopping Lillith). I mean we have seen Castiel shocked (or terrified or awed you pick) by Sam, we him leery of Sam, we have seen him disgusted by Sam, but I haven't seen hatred towards him.
I think with him saying how Sam was willing to do anything to stop Lucifer rising, that he does honestly understand Sam a lot better then he earlier did. Has someone who was manipulated and lied to, he should be well aware of how that changes your actions.
LeahBoBo
Commander
The most honest? Now we're weighing honestly in degrees? Either you're honest or you're not. There's no prize for being most honest. Lucifer was not honest. The reason he was banished to Hell was because he would not bow before God's creation, man, not because he loved God too much. Lucifer can twist the story anyway he likes, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a liar as well as a manipulator and seducer.
How do we know that Castiel is completely aware that Sam was never told truth? I don't know that.
Based on what I know and what I've seen, I can't go along with your conclusion. First, I think Castiel's comment to Sam (that he didn't make the right decision) was independent of Sam's (let's tell Jesse the truth) plea. As I said in another thread, Sam lied to himself about Ruby (and their actions together) from the moment he was left to his own devices. One doesn't fight demons for a good part of his life, knows what Sam knows through his research, and personal experience, just to fall asleep at the switch when Ruby comes along with her song and dance. I will give you that Sam didn't know that killing Lilith was the last seal, but I cannot give him a pass for never once stopping to consider all the facts that he did have to ask himself: "What is wrong with this picture? Why is Ruby so keen on me killing Lilith? What is the upside for her (Ruby) if I do? Why is a creature who is malevolent to humankind by nature helping me?" If Sam was uninformed, it's because he let himself be uninformed.
Also, from an angel's POV, humankind is flawed and weak. They've seen people (with their free will) make the wrong choice time and time again, no matter how much information they did or didn't have, so why should Castiel be willing to see this scenario play out again with Jesse? What you see as manipulation, I see as acting out of past experience and conditioning. Castiel is a warrior angel. Ruby said it best: they smite first and ask questions later.
Well, Lucifer was humbled by God. I haven't seen any of the others you've mentioned humbled.
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First Sam hasn't fought demons for the bulk of his life, the first demon he ever fought was in Phantom Traveler. So he has had knowing contact with demons for a year and a half before he meet Ruby.
He didn't trust her, he used her. And over time when she proved herself time and time again, put herself on the line time and time again. SHowed a willingness to destroy herself, so here be sent back to hell. SO her obey him at every turn, he began to trust her.
He things that he has been taught his whole life can actually not be evil, he knows this. That immortal creatures can not cause harm to humans. And those he has taken to much, much quicker then Ruby. He was willing to trust Lenore in a day. He was willing to trust certain spirits within minutes. Ruby he took a year to even begin to trust her. And thats after knowing many of the things she did for them and suffered for him.
He knows that demons are in fact humans that have been in hell. He bought into the story that she has never fully lost herself there. And damn he sees that it is possible to some degree as he sees his Dad still working with them (after all he does not know what his father is when he is freed) and he sees Dean back and while damaged still a good guy even after the horrors he committed. He also sees Angels, the force of ultimate good, turn out to be in many cases absolute bastards.
So he drinks blood (generally considered gross, but many cultures on earth look at that differently). And as for it being demonic, well he already has the blood of a monster, that to his knowledge is far greater then any typical demon. And that never turned him (unlike many of the others), he always used that ability to help, not harm.
I mean what is so hard to understand.
Dean who hates demons, who hates that his Dad made a deal for himself. In a moment of weakness jumps at the chance to kill himself and spend eternity in the Pitt.
It takes Sam, over a year to get to that same state.
He didn't trust her, he used her. And over time when she proved herself time and time again, put herself on the line time and time again. SHowed a willingness to destroy herself, so here be sent back to hell. SO her obey him at every turn, he began to trust her.
He things that he has been taught his whole life can actually not be evil, he knows this. That immortal creatures can not cause harm to humans. And those he has taken to much, much quicker then Ruby. He was willing to trust Lenore in a day. He was willing to trust certain spirits within minutes. Ruby he took a year to even begin to trust her. And thats after knowing many of the things she did for them and suffered for him.
He knows that demons are in fact humans that have been in hell. He bought into the story that she has never fully lost herself there. And damn he sees that it is possible to some degree as he sees his Dad still working with them (after all he does not know what his father is when he is freed) and he sees Dean back and while damaged still a good guy even after the horrors he committed. He also sees Angels, the force of ultimate good, turn out to be in many cases absolute bastards.
So he drinks blood (generally considered gross, but many cultures on earth look at that differently). And as for it being demonic, well he already has the blood of a monster, that to his knowledge is far greater then any typical demon. And that never turned him (unlike many of the others), he always used that ability to help, not harm.
I mean what is so hard to understand.
Dean who hates demons, who hates that his Dad made a deal for himself. In a moment of weakness jumps at the chance to kill himself and spend eternity in the Pitt.
It takes Sam, over a year to get to that same state.
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