Supernatural 5x6"I Believe the Children Are Our Future" spoilerish

[mswood]

Ok

I officially hate Castiel now.

Finally got to see this episode, and I love the part between the finding the mother and Castiel confronting Sam.

But Castiel (who has knowledge that Dean and for that matter Sam doesn't) absolutely lies right to both Dean and Sam.

When Sam says lets tell the kid the truth, to let him make the right choice. Castiel throws you didn't back at Sam.

But here is the kicker. No one, not ever, told Sam the truth. Never. Both sides manipulated him to do just what he did. Including that winged Bastard.

Hypocritical son of a bitch. AAAARRRRRGGGHHHHH

It perfectly illustrates how Dean cannot trust this being. This being will out an out lie to them to get what he believes is correct.

Now I love the conflict, I love the reminder of what Sam did (also loved the mom telling about how she killed), nice little reminders (even though Sam was responsible for his and not just a host).

But what a fucking bastard.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Here's a theory: the Pagan Trickster God IS God.

Think about it. You have a universe with a couple of hundred billion stars, with hundreds of billions of planets and moons, in a galaxy, with more galaxies in a universe than there are planets and moons in a galaxy; and that's not even counting other dimensions, and alternate timelines, and completely different universes or even multiverses...

And the devil, demons and angels think it matters, or it can somehow piss off the creator of all that, if they fight over one measly insignificant little ball of iron and rock - one tiny dot so small, a grain of sand on a beach is more significant to that beach than that one little planet is to this universe.

Is that not the ultimate trick? The ultimate prank? The ultimate joke a trickster god could play upon his subjects the angels? The ultimate test to everyone here; can you see beyond this petty little rock.

I love this idea. Seriously, I had a fleeting thought once--what if the trickster is God? Maybe the people this particular trickster teaches lessons to really deserve those lessons. That could be outstanding. Your last paragraph makes sense.

Mswood, I'm never going to be able to steer you away from the Castiel hate, am I? You're a tough nut to crack. Surely you at least took pleasure in the fart cushion. I don't think that Castiel knew all along that Lilith was the last seal. He seemed pretty genuinely upset at what Uriel was up to. I think he found out after that point in time. He was going to tell Dean the truth in his dream and he did come around.

 

[LeahBoBo]

But Castiel (who has knowledge that Dean and for that matter Sam doesn't) absolutely lies right to both Dean and Sam.

I've seen every episode of Supernatural many times, but I don't know what you're referring to. Please explain (unless you're talking about spoiler stuff that hasn't yet aired).

But here is the kicker. No one, not ever, told Sam the truth. Never. Both sides manipulated him to do just what he did. Including that winged Bastard

No one spelled it out for Sam that killing Lilith would be bad. But Sam was warned by a couple of reliable characters that following the path he was on (embracing his dark side, drinking blood, playing with Ruby) was not the way to go. Just as a neutral entity (Tess) warned Dean not to believe what he'd been told by the angels.

It perfectly illustrates how Dean cannot trust this being. This being will out an out lie to them to get what he believes is correct.

Again, what are you talking about? When did Castiel lie to them in this episode and how do you know it's a lie (spoiler rule still applies. )

 

[mswood]

Oh, I actually love Castiel (but I loved YED too), so its a love/hate relationship. It's just I don't see Castiel as this warm friendly presence in the guys lives.

And I do agree I don't think Castiel knew at least up until Head of the Pin, much of the truth himself. In fact he might have discovered it just in the last 3 or 4 episodes of the 4th season.

But the simply truth is that he absolutely knows that Sam never was told the truth of what he was made for. Never. He was manipulated by both Heaven and Hell to serve the purpose of freeing lucifer, and both sides made damn well he didn't know what would cause the end of days.

So to state as fact that Sam was told the truth of his purpose and he made his choices with that information is utter lies.

Hell Castiel didn't want him using his abilities, because he (at least probably at the time) didn't know what his purpose was. He openly and freely admits this to Dean, in In the Beginning. And if he knew more, he never voiced it, not once.

And when he clearly knew more and when he knew the truth he did help set those events in motion, and then had a change of heart that was how shall we put it too damn late.

 

[Thrall]

I doubt it's the Trickster. God isn't known for his sense of humor.

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

It was a nice little episode. I think Castiel still sees things as good or evil...no shades of grey. From Castiel's p.o.v. the Antichrist is evil. Period. Kill it or be killed. I still see Dean as realizing that the tricks that John taught him may not be enough to stop Lucifer. There's no guarantee the Colt will either. I think that by hanging around Castiel, he's being more open to some of the things Cattiel has been saying to him. I see Dean using forgiveness (towards Sam) as a way to strengthen the power of his growing faith which can bring about miracles. I think Dean's thinking outside-the-box in order to find a way to stop Lucifer. Some may say it's out-of-character but I think it's actually a way of not being anticipated by the enemy. We'll see.

 

[mswood]

LeahBoBo

Sorry I don't do quote well.

Sam point was lets tell the kid the truth. Tell him why he was created and his purpose so that he can have free will to hopefully make the right choice.

Castiel throws back, that Sam didn't. That last year Sam "would have done whatever it took to win this war" (which is true). Sam says things change (in other words yes, I was willing to do anything to win the war, but guess what I found out I was being manipulated by both sides to not end the war, but make it the biggest baddest war ever.

Sam say so we tell him the truth what he is, the apocalypse, lay it all out for him, everything. Hopefully he makes the right choice.

Castiel throws back you didn't.

Which yes, Sam did make the wrong choice, but that is not the point Sam has made.

Sam makes the specific point that we tell the kid everything (that we don't hold back, that we don't manipulate) and let him make a rational informed choice.

Sam never was presented that info, never. Sam was warned that he was to lead a demon army (lie), Sam was told that he was needed to stop Lilith (lie), Sam was told that Lilith needed to be stopped to stop Lucifer rising (lie).

Sam was never told, you are going to set Lucifer free. Never. Not once is that even implied, by angel, demon or human character. Never. The worst that was ever said to him is that Sam would loose himself by turning into a monster (by Dean), and that what he was doing was going to kill him (Dean and Bobby). The worst thing that an angel ever said (and this was to Dean not Sam) was that he was on a dangerous Path.

So Castiel is lying when in response to Sam proposal.

By making this counter claim that Sam was given all the information, he lies. He knows this because he was one of those who helped manipulate them. He is doing this in front of both Sam and Dean.

Now if he countered, that Sam you made the wrong choice, but you were lied to, mislead and deceived from the very beginning and thus couldn't by definition make an informed choice. Then he would have made a factually accurate claim. That is not what he did.

The only people who warned Sam about working with Ruby, were Dean, Uriel (did Castiel ever make any direct statements to Sam bout this?). Uriel certainly wasn't trust worthy as he was one Angel faction working to raise lucifer and was out and out killing angels who disagreed. Dean was hardly an impartial or informed being (though in this he did end up being correct). That gives us Chuck. CHuck who also thought that Sam was going to need to be the one to stop Lilith, and when he discovered the truth was not allowed to share that information. So yeah, Sam you are doing some really wrong things, but it does look like you are the one who needs to stop Lilith. Thats some awesome advice. Helped a lot.

Again Castiel proves that Dean and Sam can't trust him, because Castiel will manipulate (what he did here) to make his point.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

But the simply truth is that he absolutely knows that Sam never was told the truth of what he was made for. Never. He was manipulated by both Heaven and Hell to serve the purpose of freeing lucifer, and both sides made damn well he didn't know what would cause the end of days.

Perhaps it boils down to something as simple as Castiel being angry with Sam for not listening to Dean? For whatever reason, Castiel developed a fondness for Dean. Castiel might not be fully aware that's why he's barking at Sam. It's more than Sam and Dean not succeeding at stopping the apocalypse. Ultimately Castiel broke with 2000 years of being an automaton because of Dean's influence.

 

[mswood]

Yeah I don't buy it Dorian.

Now I know that the writers just wanted to illustrate that sometimes knowing the truth about a situation people will still make a poor choice. Hell look at the guy who agreed to be Lucifer's vessel, wasn't he pretty much told the truth of the situation.

But by using Sam and Castiel here. It paints Castiel even more so as a manipulator of facts. I mean aren't they supposed to be stopping the "Prince of Lies", t doesn't paint a good picture of the character.

What I do like is that Sam doesn't throw it back into Castiel face to defend himself. So far Sam really hasn't. He has taken lump after lump, even when he could lash out with the truth, but hasn't due to the consequences of what he did.

But for Castiel to make such a statement when he absolutely knows for a fact how much Sam was manipulated to and lied to by the forces of good and himself (even if it was just for part of the time), let alone by the various demon factions.

And to know that Sam takes it, and that Dean doesn't say anything to say yeah, you do know that your boys lied through their fucking teeth to my idiot brother. Just speaks volumes.

I really, really want to see Castiel get humbled. Just like I love seeing Dean and Sam humbled for their multitude of mistakes. But so fa, Castiel really hasn't.

Oh I do have a question, speaking about lies and truths.

Last year was probably Dean's most honest year (even with lying through a good stretch of the season to Sam about hell.

So I am curious did he tell Sam about what he saw in the "Future"? I honestly don't remember.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

They never showed on screen whether Dean told Sam or not.

 

[mswood]

I didn't think so.

Do you think he told him?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I think he did. At least about the virus.

 

[3D Master]

But by using Sam and Castiel here. It paints Castiel even more so as a manipulator of facts. I mean aren't they supposed to be stopping the "Prince of Lies", t doesn't paint a good picture of the character.

But Castiel did not manipulate. He did not want the apocalypse to start and was fighting his own people. He never knew that Sam killing Lilith would free Lucifer, he even outright said to Dean at one point. "I don't know what the consequences of Sam going demon will be, except that it will be bad."

You can blame the demons, and the higher up angels who wanted it to happen and were manipulating the whole deal, but not Castiel. He was every bit as much manipulated as Sam and Dean.

 

[Checkmate]

Hell Castiel didn't want him using his abilities, because he (at least probably at the time) didn't know what his purpose was. He openly and freely admits this to Dean, in In the Beginning. And if he knew more, he never voiced it, not once.

Erm, no.

Castiel didn't want Sam using his abilities because they were given to him by a demon. That, in and of itself, was more than enough reason for Castiel to be against them. It didn't matter if Sam was effectively using fire to fight fire; it was a demonborn ability and that goes against God and everything Castiel believes in. So duh, of course he didn't want Sam using those abilities.

In no way whatsoever did that mean Castiel knew why Azazel was imbuing all those children with demonic abilities, let alone Sam.

Hell, they also made it painfully clear that Castiel was being manipulated by his own side. Zachariah and some of the other higher-up angels were openly lying to the lesser angels about being in communication with God, and that all the questionable acts they were ordered to perform were in God's service. If they were lying about talking to God -- which has got to be far worse than anything Lucifer did -- do you really think they'd have any trouble lying to the lesser angels about why they were being ordered to do the things they were? Or even if they were being told anything about the orders? Their primary law is to obey without question -- to have faith in their orders.

Castiel had no idea of what was really going on. To this day he's still trying to figure everything out; what were lies and what were truths? What were his superiors truly up to? How much of the Apocalypse's arrival was his fault due to blindly following orders?

He's full of guilt for being partly responsible for its coming. The only reason he's still working with Dean since his rebirth is because he believes that God Himself protected Sam and Dean from Lucifer just as he believes that God resurrected him. And if God thought that saving Sam -- despite all his failings -- was worth saving, that alone is enough to keep Castiel from smiting him outright. Even if he desperately wants to do so and even if he desperately despises everything Sam stands for.

And now, having seen as much of the truth as he has, Castiel is overcome with guilt, grief and despair. We saw a good glimpse of this in the future when he drowned himself in the pleasures of the flesh.

Castiel is the only true angel we've seen in the series. A true believer in God. A true being of faith. One who has no desire to be human or to end his existence. He lives to obey his Father and, much like Sam and Dean in the first season, is on a quest to find and/or rescue his Father from whatever has befallen Him.

He doesn't have Heaven backing him up. He doesn't have omniscient knowledge of everything going on. He's little more than a human with a few gifts who's out fighting both Heaven AND Hell while trying to find his father, AND aiding the only two people in existence he believes can help him and existence itself.

To think Castiel to be anything other than the best thing in the Winchesters's life is absurd. He may be misguided and confused and he may view things in a black-and-white way, but he's not a bad person. Not at all. Not even after he loses all hope in the future -- a future in which he sacrified himself in the feeble hope that it may stop Lucifer. (And if you don't think Castiel knew FutureDean was lying about his plan at the end, you're only fooling yourself. Considering he still had enough angelic mojo to identify PresentDean as "Past You.")

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Castiel is the only true angel we've seen in the series. A true believer in God. A true being of faith. One who has no desire to be human or to end his existence. He lives to obey his Father and, much like Sam and Dean in the first season, is on a quest to find and/or rescue his Father from whatever has befallen Him.

QFT. Castiel didn't know what was going on all along. He was one of the grunts in the trenches.

 

[broberfett]

My favorite line:"That'll do, pig!"

The hairy palms joke and the whoopy cushion were also great. My girlfriend, who never really watches the show, was shocked. I enjoyed how Castiel kept a straight face during the whole prolonged whoopy cushion fart.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Hard to imagine Clark Kent joking about whacking off because of a hot nurse, isn't it?

 

[broberfett]

Hard to imagine Clark Kent joking about whacking off because of a hot nurse, isn't it?

Remember all those barrels of toxic waste they found on the Kent family farm? Kryptonian Spoogy.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

 

[LeahBoBo]

Yeah I don't buy it Dorian.

Now I know that the writers just wanted to illustrate that sometimes knowing the truth about a situation people will still make a poor choice. Hell look at the guy who agreed to be Lucifer's vessel, wasn't he pretty much told the truth of the situation.

No, he wasn't. Not entirely. He was given facts that he already knew (wife and child murdered) wrapped in the message God doesn't care about you, just like He didn't care about me (manipulation). The "we're in the same boat" argument works pretty well when you're using all your powers of persuasion to bend someone to your will. The first vessel was weak, looking for answers and readily gave up his ability to judge for himself by accepting Lucifer's premise.

But by using Sam and Castiel here. It paints Castiel even more so as a manipulator of facts. I mean aren't they supposed to be stopping the "Prince of Lies", t doesn't paint a good picture of the character.

I really don't understand what you're talking about here, mswood. It was my understanding that it was Michael's job to stop Lucifer using his vessel, Dean. All this other stuff is just background noise. The keystone cops (Dean, Sam and Castiel) think they can do it better.

I really, really want to see Castiel get humbled. Just like I love seeing Dean and Sam humbled for their multitude of mistakes. But so fa, Castiel really hasn't.

An angel being humbled? Good luck. You're trying to hold supernatural beings to human standards. Castiel's purpose is not to be humbled for Sam's or Dean's benefit.