Thank you for the clarification, David cgc, Indeed, I have understood that CorporalClegg hoped Katie McGrath be fired. That's why I asked why.
Spoilers Supergirl - Season 5
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
Thank you for the clarification, David cgc, Indeed, I have understood that CorporalClegg hoped Katie McGrath be fired. That's why I asked why.
Technically that wasn't Jimmy Olsen is the little kid who gets the bow tie and grows up to also look like Shaun Ashmore. Jason
Don't worry, Witwer will kill him too.
TV Guide has their description up for the season premiere:
EVENT HORIZON
In the Season 5 premiere, Kara is surprised to find that CatCo has a new owner who has brought in a star reporter. New couples emerge and explore their budding realationsips while J'Onn J'Onzz receives an unexpected visitor.
EVENT HORIZON
In the Season 5 premiere, Kara is surprised to find that CatCo has a new owner who has brought in a star reporter. New couples emerge and explore their budding realationsips while J'Onn J'Onzz receives an unexpected visitor.
I thought that J'onn had left the show after the season 3 finale, its nice to know he's still there. I think I might just pick up Supergirl with Season 5. Skipping Season 4 of Arrow and Flash helped me get into the much better Season 5's of those shows, so hopefully Supergirl follows the "Arrowverse Curse" of a terrible season 4 being followed up by a good Season 5 (at the bare minimum, a lack of a pointless amnesia subplot means that even if it isn't technically good, Season 5 will still be an improvement on Season 4).
^ I was no fan of the "Alex mindwipe" subplot, but one poor creative choice among dozens of excellent ones does not a season ruin. Season 4 was the show's best and most consistent overall since its move to the CW, certainly ... and maybe its best ever.
(And yeah, I know I'm preaching perspective and proportion to the exact wrong person.)
(And yeah, I know I'm preaching perspective and proportion to the exact wrong person.)
Season 4 was terrible.
I'm also not a fan of "Agent Liberty" and the DEO stuff. Its a bit too close to real life for me. Avoiding specifics because Supergirl topics tend to get locked down if people go into it too much, If I wanted the kind of story that supergirl Season 4 focused on, I can (unfortunately) literally just turn on my TV to any news channel. I support Supergirl tackling more real world type stuff, and I'm generally on the show's "side", but its all honestly a bit too real in Season 4, if you get what I mean.
So, between the mind wipe and a (to me) depressingly timely main story (or at least the broad themes being timely, the superhero stuff less so), even if supergirl Season 4 might not be technically bad in the way Arrow and Flash's 4th Seasons were bad, watching it really doesn't seem like it would be a particularly pleasant experience for me.
The problem with Agent Liberty wasn't the message so much as the way it was delivered. It felt heavy-handed and trite and written by people who don't have a strong grasp of the subject matter. But even that wasn't the worst aspect of the season.
Cryer just wasn't good, easily the worst live-action version of the character to date. But I think it was as much on the writing as it was on him. It was just an uninspired take. It almost felt like it was something Joel Schumacher might have done based on the Fleischer animation. An obvious caricature. A clown. And not menacing in the slightest. But my biggest issue with the use of Lex Luthor was 'why'? It seems like this show can't go five minutes without running back to the Superman well. It's almost as if it's defined - directly or indirectly - more by Clark than Kara, going all the way back to the game of "What would Clark do?" that seemed to permeate the first season. And there's absolutely no need for it. And all the while, I kept thinking how much better it would have been had they just used Lena instead. Artistically, dramatically, thematically - all that those -allys - would have been so much better with Lena, even with everything else being the same. It was such a poor creative choice not to do it that way.
But the biggest problem with last season was it was duller than dirt. It wasn't just that the plots where bad, so much as it was I just didn't care. I completely lost interest in everything not concerning Nia Nal. Like seriously. It got to the point in several episodes where, if Maines wasn't on screen, I was fast-forwarding. And I still haven't seen the finale. I read a synopsis. That was enough.
Cryer just wasn't good, easily the worst live-action version of the character to date. But I think it was as much on the writing as it was on him. It was just an uninspired take. It almost felt like it was something Joel Schumacher might have done based on the Fleischer animation. An obvious caricature. A clown. And not menacing in the slightest. But my biggest issue with the use of Lex Luthor was 'why'? It seems like this show can't go five minutes without running back to the Superman well. It's almost as if it's defined - directly or indirectly - more by Clark than Kara, going all the way back to the game of "What would Clark do?" that seemed to permeate the first season. And there's absolutely no need for it. And all the while, I kept thinking how much better it would have been had they just used Lena instead. Artistically, dramatically, thematically - all that those -allys - would have been so much better with Lena, even with everything else being the same. It was such a poor creative choice not to do it that way.
But the biggest problem with last season was it was duller than dirt. It wasn't just that the plots where bad, so much as it was I just didn't care. I completely lost interest in everything not concerning Nia Nal. Like seriously. It got to the point in several episodes where, if Maines wasn't on screen, I was fast-forwarding. And I still haven't seen the finale. I read a synopsis. That was enough.
I'm still wondering why Nia's focused dream power whip, looks like an old timey telephone cord.
I thought he was easily one of the best live-action Luthors. He really impressed me.
I felt it captured his personality from the comics very well -- his narcissism, his need for control, his resentment of Superman for being more powerful than he was. It felt like a blend of Elliott Maggin's Luthor from his '70s Superman novels and Grant Morrison's from All-Star Superman.
Wow, no, because Lena is not just a distaff Lex. They're not interchangeable. I wish people would stop assuming she's supposed to be merely the equivalent of Lex. She's supposed to be his opposite. She's defined by her need to distance herself from the family's infamy, to be better than her parents and her brother. That's why it was important to bring in Lex eventually, to show directly how their relationship worked and how it drove her. And there was no one more suited to ruin her friendship with Kara than Lex.
Wow. I disagree with virtually everything in your post, but this -- this-- tells me we really have no point of commonality even to start a dialogue. Because Cryer was brilliant, and the writing and conception of the character was great.
Oh, well. I salute you in passing as we continue our life's journeys, in completely opposite directions.
It's her calling.
If by that you mean she's destined to be a villain because of her family, that's the misconception that Lena has spent literally her entire time on the series refuting over and over and over again. It's ridiculous that anyone still clings to that expectation by this point.
In the original Silver and Bronze Age comics, as I said, Lena's traditional role was to be the direct opposite of Lex -- the pure, perfect innocent who had no inkling of her relationship to the world's greatest master criminal (since her parents had changed their name to Thorul and nobody in comic books can decipher anagrams). Lex's determination to preserve her purity and make sure she was never tainted by his villainy was the one redeeming quality he had. Her post-Crisis version was also an innocent Lex tried to protect, though I think there's been one recent version that painted her more villainously (plus Smallville's clumsy and inexplicable retcon that their Tess Mercer character was actually "Lutessa Lena Luthor").
I know my humor can be turbid and not particularly funny, but I thought telephone puns were rotary?
As for Lena, I never said she was destined to be a villain so much as I want to see the character given more weight and chroma. McGrath is just so underutilized and making her a bit more darkish is the shortest and easiest path. And her "traditional role" shouldn't matter. And I think that's part of the problem. Of all the DCW shows, SG is the one that tries the hardest to mind the gap or is too afraid to deviate from the source material - specifically the Superman source material. And I think this is seriously holding the series back. It could be really great if the writers were would just allow it to develop and evolve on its own. To that end, as I said, I think the storyline would have still been better - as is - with Lena because then it's still the show bearing its own fruit.
But I hated the storyline anyway, so I'd have done something slightly different. I think the clone should have been the climax foe - thus removing the need for that ridiculous armor suit thing. Instead, I'd have the story start with Lena sussing out Kara's identity and creating the clone as a desperate need to build the sororal bond she desperately desires and feels Kara is depriving her by conceling her identity. At the same time go all-in with Alex's memory wipe, such that, from her perspective, Kara is some reporter she knows and Supergirl is a work friend. This creates a great thematic juxtaposition to build on with the potential for genuine and organic tragedy and pathos. And it still wouldn't be hard to weave in the stuff with Witwer and Boxleitner and Russia with only some minor alterations. It may not be true to the comics, but it's grounds for much better drama.
And Tess was a conceptual disaster - born out of bad timing and poor planning. And the strike. And it was evident over the course of the three seasons they never knew what to do with her. But it was always the intent for her to be Lena. I mean, it's not exactly a coincidence they cast a green-eyed light-ginger. And if you go into the way back machine, there was discussion on this forum linking Freeman to Lena even before season eight started.
As for Lena, I never said she was destined to be a villain so much as I want to see the character given more weight and chroma. McGrath is just so underutilized and making her a bit more darkish is the shortest and easiest path. And her "traditional role" shouldn't matter. And I think that's part of the problem. Of all the DCW shows, SG is the one that tries the hardest to mind the gap or is too afraid to deviate from the source material - specifically the Superman source material. And I think this is seriously holding the series back. It could be really great if the writers were would just allow it to develop and evolve on its own. To that end, as I said, I think the storyline would have still been better - as is - with Lena because then it's still the show bearing its own fruit.
But I hated the storyline anyway, so I'd have done something slightly different. I think the clone should have been the climax foe - thus removing the need for that ridiculous armor suit thing. Instead, I'd have the story start with Lena sussing out Kara's identity and creating the clone as a desperate need to build the sororal bond she desperately desires and feels Kara is depriving her by conceling her identity. At the same time go all-in with Alex's memory wipe, such that, from her perspective, Kara is some reporter she knows and Supergirl is a work friend. This creates a great thematic juxtaposition to build on with the potential for genuine and organic tragedy and pathos. And it still wouldn't be hard to weave in the stuff with Witwer and Boxleitner and Russia with only some minor alterations. It may not be true to the comics, but it's grounds for much better drama.
And Tess was a conceptual disaster - born out of bad timing and poor planning. And the strike. And it was evident over the course of the three seasons they never knew what to do with her. But it was always the intent for her to be Lena. I mean, it's not exactly a coincidence they cast a green-eyed light-ginger. And if you go into the way back machine, there was discussion on this forum linking Freeman to Lena even before season eight started.
Eh, I think Alex's mother might notice if her daughter forgot her adopted sister. I know we don't see Alex's mother on screen much, but logically they're probably calling each other and talking off screen (its not like they are estranged or anything), and the mother is bound to bring up Kara to Alex, and would probably raise a big fuss if Alex didn't remember Kara living with her at all.
Plus, a lot of DEO agents have to know about Alex's adopted sister, even if they don't know she's Supergirl, and Alex definitely has friends in and out of the DEO that definitely have to know. They'd have to mind wipe dozens of people for this to work, and they'd probably still miss people (like everyone who lived in the town Alex grew up in, which probably also includes people Alex has kept in contact with).
As for Lena, its obvious she should have just turned evil, and that she'll almost certainly go full evil sooner or later. I can't judge Jon cryer because I haven't seen him play Lex, but he's never been a particularly good actor, so I doubt he's dethroned Gene Hackman as the default best live action Luthor.
I'm sure Brainy could come up with some kind of one-time-use magical contrivance augmentation wand for J'onn. Par for the course for the franchise, really.
And Duckie does the flamboyant funny stuff will - which makes him good for sitcoms and John Hughes - but, yeah, he's certainly no champion scenery chewer. Not that many in the Arrowverse are.
And Duckie does the flamboyant funny stuff will - which makes him good for sitcoms and John Hughes - but, yeah, he's certainly no champion scenery chewer. Not that many in the Arrowverse are.
"Easiest" is hardly a ringing endorsement. Good stories aren't about taking the easy or obvious paths.
It doesn't, aside from reinforcing what should already be obvious from the show. How many times has this show's Lena already proven that, when given the choice, she will choose the side of good? That has been her consistent characterization for three seasons -- people expect her to be evil, her family tempts her to turn evil, she flirts with a darker path, but she ultimately reaffirms that that just isn't who she is, that she remains committed to being something better. It's amazing to me at this point that anyone who's actually watched the show could still expect Lena to turn evil.
No, it wouldn't The show's "own fruit" is the characterization of Lena it's built over three years, a characterization that is NOT a path to outright villainy. Fandom's desire to see her merely as a female Lex is superimposing their own preconceptions and ignoring what's actually in the show.
That's probably where fandom got the idea that Lena Luthor is "supposed" to be a villain. They don't understand how revisionist Smallville's version was. Of course a show isn't required to copy the comics, but the point is that Supergirl has never been under any obligation to repeat Smallville's choices with the character.
All true. But that's what happens when hardline ideologues push a one-sided agenda before creative needs of a series.
Early on, Witwer's performance was strong, but he was eventually reduced to an erratic joke of a villain with not an ounce of believable purpose to his character.
I thought he was okay. Not the greatest of adapted Lex Luthors, but not the worst.
Yes--a consistently squandered opportunity. Lena is not now, nor has she ever been a heroine, and she has not had to go out of her way to prove it. For the moment, let's step around the fact she murdered her own brother (even if Lex returns, it was her intent to commit murder and believed she was successful), and has been involved in a number of unethical practices, yet she's supposed to be this dawning heroine, along with the forced "best friend" angle that's never been believably developed. Oh, nevermind Alex had to remind Kara that James (remember him?) is Kara's best friend (when he was on the operating table), the show wants to sell the idea of Lena being the "bestest evar" pal of Kara, when the psychological/ethical DNA of both are as "oil and water" as one can imagine.
Lena being just another "pal" of Kara is not fascinating at all. Giving McGrath something major to sink her acting teeth into (and giving in to her "heritage") is where the series needs to go, but...
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