Sulu -- the forgotten lover and racism of the times?

[FormerLurker]

As to the Samurai, Sulu was not originally Japanese, right? I've read that here, I think, that he was kinda pan-Asian, with "Sulu" actually being a sea near the Philippines. Later an author (V. McIntyre?) named him Hikaru and Japan-i-fied him, IIRC. My apologies if this has been covered. I do keep coming back to this thread to see if the train has totally wrecked yet, but I haven't read all posts.

(And do NOT argue with me, even reasonably, or you are a hater and I will take my keyboard and leave this board. I will!)

I'm going to catch hell for this, I always do, but here goes: Vonda McIntyre did not Japanify Sulu. She had nothing to do with coming up with his name, other than to read the memo Gene Roddenberry wrote giving the name Hikaru.

I say this because I asked George Takei at a Star Trek convention. He was a guest at Star Con Denver in 1990, and while he was onstage, I personally asked him if he knew what Sulu's given name was ever intended to be. I wanted to know because several names had been offered by other writers (Hikaru was not ever one of them), and was curious if one had been in the offing. George Takei responded that during production of TOS, GR had sent a memo around, even to Takei, saying that if the opportunity presented itself, Sulu's given name was to be presented as "Hikaru". I thanked him, the audience applauded, and just over a year later, ST:VI came out, settling the issue.

 

[Zaminhon]

As to the Samurai, Sulu was not originally Japanese, right? I've read that here, I think, that he was kinda pan-Asian, with "Sulu" actually being a sea near the Philippines. Later an author (V. McIntyre?) named him Hikaru and Japan-i-fied him, IIRC. My apologies if this has been covered. I do keep coming back to this thread to see if the train has totally wrecked yet, but I haven't read all posts.

(And do NOT argue with me, even reasonably, or you are a hater and I will take my keyboard and leave this board. I will!)

I'm going to catch hell for this, I always do, but here goes: Vonda McIntyre did not Japanify Sulu. She had nothing to do with coming up with his name, other than to read the memo Gene Roddenberry wrote giving the name Hikaru.

I say this because I asked George Takei at a Star Trek convention. He was a guest at Star Con Denver in 1990, and while he was onstage, I personally asked him if he knew what Sulu's given name was ever intended to be. I wanted to know because several names had been offered by other writers (Hikaru was not ever one of them), and was curious if one had been in the offing. George Takei responded that during production of TOS, GR had sent a memo around, even to Takei, saying that if the opportunity presented itself, Sulu's given name was to be presented as "Hikaru". I thanked him, the audience applauded, and just over a year later, ST:VI came out, settling the issue.

Interesting but not surprising. I think that Sulu's ancestry was cemented when he conjured up the Samurai in Shore Leave. It is conceivable that anyone could have an interest in Feudal Japan, yes... but how likely would it be for Kirk, Rodriguez or McCoy to imagine one on the Shore Leave planet? Instead of throwing all Asians into one basket, Sulu, like Takei, who was of Japanese descent, who opened the door and inspired Asians in general, instead of being some nebulous pan-Asian guy without much of a heritage or back-story, and with no set of traditions to be proud of. That would make sort of a one dimensional character in my opinion.

 

[BillJ]

I think that Sulu's ancestry was cemented when he conjured up the Samurai in Shore Leave.

Why? He could've simply been reading Shogun the night before. He had interests in fencing and seemed to know a great deal about hand guns as well. I'd say he was well versed in multiple cultures and there's no real way to nail his cultural heritage down with what we see on screen.

 

[plynch]

Someone argued withh me cogently and with facts to boot. Hater. I'm leaving.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

We should never be opposed to people asking questions?

BillJ a question is different than a preconceived idea inspiring the false premise/charge.

TOS is now 50 years old. More has been published and produced about the origin and production of the series than some famous politicians or serious historical events. After volumes of interviews, articles and revisited subjects (to obsessive degrees in many cases), why is "Sulu--forgotten lover" not part of any well researched study of the series and/or characters?

The issue of NBC's view on women and race has been researched, dissected and covered ad infinitum, yet for all of the intense focus on the subject, there's no "Sulu--forgotten lover" information to be found.

However, in the face of volumes of TOS historical data saying the opposite (including data that has debunked previous accounts or beliefs over the decades), we are supposed to take a ride on the U.S.S. Unsubstantiated all based on an utterly false notion that appears to hope race was a factor?

Just how did the Sulu scene in "The Way to Eden" ever go before cameras on race-minded, region-sensitive 1960sTV if the OP's false premise held any weight?

I simply still don't know. Perhaps Harvey could chime in if he's ran into anything from the Rodenberry Archive that could shed light on the subject one way or the other?

That would be preferable to tossing hollow, inflammatory language at the series.

 

[Masao]

Here's my final statement on this matter.

1. I'm a native-born American of Japanese-Chinese descent.

2. I grew up in the midwest during the 1960s and watched a lot of TV.

3. Of the depictions of Asian men on TV I watched during that time, I remember few, if any, that were romantic parts (We do, however, have the various guys in Flower Drum Song.) Instead, we get Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's and Hop Sing on Bonanza, and, continuing into the 1980s, Long Duk Dong in Sixteen Candles.

4. Seeing Asian men usually depicted as neutered wise men, exotics, or clowns saddens me.

5. Star Trek was the most progressive TV show of its time and gave prominent roles to many nonwhite and Hispanic actors. Asians included.

6. Star Trek was a product of its time and was subject to some common contemporary biases. For example, where are the female starship captains?

7. Mr. Sulu, an Asian man, is a character well liked by fans and the production.

8. Might some sort of bias (conscious or unconscious) prevented Mr. Sulu from having romance on the show?

9. I don't know if there was bias. The evidence is mostly negative.

10. Wondering if there was bias it is not a bad thing. Star Trek is strong enough to be examined in this way.

11. Star Trek is my favorite TV show of all time. But it's not perfect.

 

[BillJ]

TOS is now 50 years old. More has been published and produced about the origin and production of the series than some famous politicians or serious historical events.

Yet there are still blatant misconceptions and downright falsehoods that are part of the public record. Like NBC not wanting a woman first officer.

 

[Masao]

TREK_GOD_1: I hope that there has been no bias against Mr. Sulu, but I believe the possibility exists. I understand that you fervently believe that such bias is impossible, but I don’t think you understand how your argument against it (in post 145) is flawed. I will demonstrate by using your method to prove that extraterrestrial life is impossible.

1. We have found no evidence for extraterrestrial life. Repeat, we have found no evidence for extraterrestrial life!
2. We have lots of evidence that says extraterrestrial life is impossible, so why should we even consider the possibility of extraterrestrial life, which is impossible?
3. We have landed on the moon, which I say would be impossible if extraterrestrial life exists (aliens would have shot down our rockets, of course). Therefore, the moon landing proves that extraterrestrial life is impossible.
4. Based on this expert reasoning: extraterrestrial life is impossible!

TOS is now 50 years old. More has been published and produced about the origin and production of the series than some famous politicians or serious historical events. After volumes of interviews, articles and revisited subjects (to obsessive degrees in many cases), why is "Sulu--forgotten lover" not part of any well researched study of the series and/or characters?

The issue of NBC's view on women and race has been researched, dissected and covered ad infinitum, yet for all of the intense focus on the subject, there's no "Sulu--forgotten lover" information to be found.

However, in the face of volumes of TOS historical data saying the opposite (including data that has debunked previous accounts or beliefs over the decades), we are supposed to take a ride on the U.S.S. Unsubstantiated all based on an utterly false notion that appears to hope race was a factor?

Just how did the Sulu scene in "The Way to Eden" ever go before cameras on race-minded, region-sensitive 1960sTV if the OP's false premise held any weight?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Racism and sexism—and other isms (e.g. egotism)—negatively impacted the production of TOS in a myriad ways. This is known.

There is, however, only at best weak evidence available (or in other words, no real evidence) that an instance of racism was Sulu not being featured in an episode involving a love interest of his. On the other hand, if such a thing were true, we'd expect to have uncovered evidence of it. There is, therefore, no reason to believe it is so.

In other words, this just isn't one of the examples of when racism negatively impacted TOS.

 

[Masao]

So, by that measure:

We have found no evidence of ET life. If such ET life did exist, we would have found evidence of it. Therefore, we have no reason to believe ET life exists.

Come on, guys! Try to avoid logical fallacies. I promise that if all of you stop claiming that "absence of proof is proof of absence," I won't claim that "absence of disproof is proof of existence." All I'm saying is that bias might have existed regarding Mr. Sulu.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So, by that measure:

We have found no evidence of ET life. If such ET life did exist, we would have found evidence of it. Therefore, we have no reason to believe ET life exists.

Come on, guys! Try to avoid logical fallacies. I promise that if all of you stop claiming that "absence of proof is proof of absence," I won't claim that "absence of disproof is proof of existence." All I'm saying is that bias might have existed regarding Mr. Sulu.

The weakest link in your "rebuttal" is in your assertion: "If such ET life did exist, we would have found evidence of it." That is false. There are a variety of plausible scenarios in which undetected ET life could exist.

We do not need to establish that X is false beyond all doubt to disbelieve X. History is not mathematics. You should look up burden of proof and extraordinary claims before lecturing us on logical fallacies.* But, if you'd like to equate racism against Sulu governing how stories about him were accepted onto the show with the Loch Ness Monster, something else that hasn't been proven not to exist beyond all doubt, be my guest. It won't help your case.

* - The claim regarding racism in question is extraordinary for two reasons. One, the facts asserted in the OP have been debunked. Scotty and Sulu were both shown approaching women for sexual reasons without being involved in any reciprocating relationships on screen. So, Sulu is not even unique in that regard. Further, the lack of focus on Sulu can be (and has been) explained satisfactorily by his being a much more minor character than Scotty.

It would be a far more worthwhile topic to ponder whether racism had a bearing on relegating Sulu to such a minor role, instead of focussing on the singular aspect of romance. Under the assumption that the lack of focus on romance follows from the character being so minor, the paramount issue becomes why the character was so minor. That question itself has been debated in-thread, and it is, I think, the more interesting question.

 

[Masao]

My "case" is simply to state that the possibility of racial bias exists. Most of the posters in this thread seem unable or unwilling to even entertain this possibility. So, I guess it's true: it's hard to understand bias agains a minority you're not part of.

I'm done here.

 

[1001001]

I'm done here.

I think we're all done here.



"Hailing Frequencies Closed"