You chose to zero in only on my comment about your wielding student opinion, and completely ignored the parts where I did address the original topic. Are you interested in an actual discussion?
Sulu -- the forgotten lover and racism of the times?
- Thread starter Gassy Man
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It's impossible to prove every adverse omission is racism-based, though there have been subtle and not-so-subtle TOS incidents which suggest the possibility of it.
First, in the not-so-subtle, there's the sudden promotion of DeSalle to fifth-in-command in CATSPAW the very moment Uhura would be the natural fifth. DeSalle is the only non-regular Enterprise crewperson ever to sit in the center seat in TOS. It's only his second, and final, appearance. And suddenly his shirt's promoted from yellow to red. Quite convenient. I sense major placating of the South here.
The next two points are subtler. Takei and Nichelle Nichols were the only two of the key seven in THE WRATH OF KHAN to lack significant scenes or moments. And, if were George Takei, I might even wonder why of all the six major male players, I/he alone was never temporarily killed in TOS.
First, in the not-so-subtle, there's the sudden promotion of DeSalle to fifth-in-command in CATSPAW the very moment Uhura would be the natural fifth. DeSalle is the only non-regular Enterprise crewperson ever to sit in the center seat in TOS. It's only his second, and final, appearance. And suddenly his shirt's promoted from yellow to red. Quite convenient. I sense major placating of the South here.
The next two points are subtler. Takei and Nichelle Nichols were the only two of the key seven in THE WRATH OF KHAN to lack significant scenes or moments. And, if were George Takei, I might even wonder why of all the six major male players, I/he alone was never temporarily killed in TOS.
To add to those articles:
http://www.racialicious.com/?s=Asian+Americans+in+media
http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/ (magazine has some article on the same topics as your links)
Don't leave just yet, Gassy Man- I like your posts, they are though-provoking!
It's okay -- it's clear that the problems that kept me away before have not resolved themselves but just gotten worse. I'll post one more comment to someone who seems reasonable and open to a discussion and then that will be it.
Thanks, Shaka, but I came here in the past for intelligent conversation, and for the most part, got it. I registered many years ago. I then stopped coming a while back because it was clear that the nature of the discussions too often devolved quickly into something else. Of course, finger-pointing would result, the difference being that if one turned the tables on those who start the problem -- in some way to respond in kind or challenge that behavior -- too often, that person is the one singled out for being a problem. That is stifling and unfriendly, as is having what one says -- like simply asking a question -- turned into something completely different by people mis-characterizing it. Perhaps that is something a moderator could address in the future, too. But you can find me on other forums, as I'm a big movie and pop culture guy, for many reasons. I'm not just an educator but also a published author of several works and I'm blessed to have the means to be online while working. Live long and prosper, my friend.
Thing is, is that we would know what his hopes for the character were, whether he communicated those hopes with TPTB and how they reacted to those hopes.
I'm still firmly in the "I don't know" camp. Because, I don't know.
. . .
The next two points are subtler. Takei and Nichelle Nichols were the only two of the key seven in THE WRATH OF KHAN to lack significant scenes or moments. And, if were George Takei, I might even wonder why of all the six major male players, I/he alone was never temporarily killed in TOS.
I'd rather pilot and command a Starship than being temporarily killed any day.
Speaking as a red-blooded American male who's almost the same age as De Kelley when he filmed the episode...you're never too old for Tonia Barrows!
To Gassy Man's students: Maybe you can earn a little extra credit by showing the teach how to use Multi Quote. I'd say that's worth at least an extra 15 points.
Several people have been reasonable and open to discussion. You're just not allowing yourself to see it, and selectively ignoring it when people do address the issue in a reasonable fashion.
It's impossible to prove every adverse omission is racism-based, though there have been subtle and not-so-subtle TOS incidents which suggest the possibility of it.
First, in the not-so-subtle, there's the sudden promotion of DeSalle to fifth-in-command in CATSPAW the very moment Uhura would be the natural fifth. DeSalle is the only non-regular Enterprise crewperson ever to sit in the center seat in TOS. It's only his second, and final, appearance. And suddenly his shirt's promoted from yellow to red. Quite convenient. I sense major placating of the South here.
It was DeSalle's third appearance. He was in season one's "The Squire of Gothos" and "This Side of Paradise," making "Catspaw" the third (and final) appearance.
The fact DeSalle made it to season two seems to suggest he was one of the 1st season guests thought to have some sort of potential, so he was worked into the "Catspaw" script. That the character assumed command over Sulu in this episode suggests no bias or skipping over him for the position, since Sulu held temporary command a season earlier in "Errand of Mercy" (and during a tense situation normally reserved for leading characters).
Let's not forget Takei was supposed to have his promotion to captain scene in TWOK, but the scene was cut. That was major for one of the "B" team, and certainly proof of how his character was viewed behind the scenes. Moving to TUC, Sulu has his own ship. How often do "B" level characters ever receive that kind of promotion? It is rare.The next two points are subtler. Takei and Nichelle Nichols were the only two of the key seven in THE WRATH OF KHAN to lack significant scenes or moments. And, if were George Takei, I might even wonder why of all the six major male players, I/he alone was never temporarily killed in TOS.
Moreover, on TOS, Sulu was in the captain's char on several occasions, which would have never found its way in front of cameras if the unsubstantiated racism had any merit.
Regarding the topic, as noted time and again, one cannot charge racism as a cause about a specific situation, then fail to offer equally specific evidence about the event & players involved. No conclusion can be reached from false premises dipped in a pool of inflammatory language.
Further, to ignore relevant examples (the scene in "The Way to Eden"), which for 1960s TV counters any notion of Takei facing true racial discrimination is dishonest. Particularly when considering the woman who shared his scene was white. Again, this was 1960s TV.
One cannot allow an agenda-gripped mindset leading to a search for evil that did not exist in the production offices of TOS..
...otherwise, someone would have found it easy to produces something--anything of substance which supports the charge.
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No, it really should count for something.
No, what happened in the Mirror Universe wasn't a straightforward romantic issue, but it was George Takei acting the part. That's now a third example of the actor being used in contexts within TOS where his character "tried to get it on with some women." If Scotty was shown having a love interest for the purposes of the OP, even though the women he was interested in did not reciprocate, then so was Sulu. There's no implied racism, because Sulu was not the exception when it came to trying "to get it on with some women."
In respect to the topic, I do have to say that I'm still scratching my head over the very weird choices in the JJ films in disconnecting actors' heritage with the heritage of their characters. I thought it was cool to see a Samurai pop out and chase Sulu in Shore Leave. A little nod to the actor's and character's culture there. Would that still be relevant in the JJ verse? I'm sure this has been beat to death in other threads in this forum.. (goes off to search..)
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As to the Samurai, Sulu was not originally Japanese, right? I've read that here, I think, that he was kinda pan-Asian, with "Sulu" actually being a sea near the Philippines. Later an author (V. McIntyre?) named him Hikaru and Japan-i-fied him, IIRC. My apologies if this has been covered. I do keep coming back to this thread to see if the train has totally wrecked yet, but I haven't read all posts.
(And do NOT argue with me, even reasonably, or you are a hater and I will take my keyboard and leave this board. I will!)
(And do NOT argue with me, even reasonably, or you are a hater and I will take my keyboard and leave this board. I will!)
You seem to be forgeting Key Luke who played Dr. Cory in "Whom Gods Destroy". and the Tsing Tao family in "And the Children Shall Lead".
Well, Sulu was born in San Francisco according to Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. So I'd say all bets are off on what his cultural heritage actually is.
re. the memo: Trying to give the Asian a better role. Yup, racist.
Though I will grant you a bit stereotyped, as in, "all-Japanese-guys-dig-Bonsai-trees."
DeSalle never had a romance. I am 1/4 French. I am offended. Kyle? No love for a while. Boma? Loner. M'Benga? No ringa on HIS finga. Go figure.
I'm quite a mongrel, but almost half Irish. So . . . cousin Kevin O'Riley? Not unless you count "Kathleen."
The most bigoted production on television! I agree with upthread, start a letter campaign and get this garbage off the air!
Though I will grant you a bit stereotyped, as in, "all-Japanese-guys-dig-Bonsai-trees."
DeSalle never had a romance. I am 1/4 French. I am offended. Kyle? No love for a while. Boma? Loner. M'Benga? No ringa on HIS finga. Go figure.
I'm quite a mongrel, but almost half Irish. So . . . cousin Kevin O'Riley? Not unless you count "Kathleen."
The most bigoted production on television! I agree with upthread, start a letter campaign and get this garbage off the air!
Not racist, but stereotypical.
All these guys were in one or two episodes, not as many as Takei. Too, I wonder if we would have saw Boma or M'Benga get with a girl who looked like the very pretty Yeoman Tamura or the very interesting Yeoman Atkins...on a show that was produced in 1960s Amerikka?
Well, it couldn't be bigoted because it seemed to listen to 'fans.' Albeit given the internet wasn't present at the time, and given it was during a certain time in America (or Amerikka) we didn't have feedback going to the production from a diverse group of people who identify as 'black' or 'African American' (or dark-skinned chocolate complexioned folk)....'Asian American'....'white American'....'Afro-Latino'...'Hispanic'...LGBT....etc.
The people who were interested in the show, based on our knowledge of the viewers at the time, took the show at face value; they saw a multi-racial crew on television and probably didn't go further than that.
You'd think that Trek BBS members would understand by now that the failure to produce evidence of existence is not proof that something does not exist. After all, no evidence has been produced for the existence of Big Foot or extraterrestrial life, but the lack of evidence does not prove that they do not exist. No matter how often one demands "show me evidence!" and replies "See! You have no evidence," doing so does not prove the absence of a possibility. Also, conflating 1) a possibility of (conscious or unconscious) bias regarding one aspect of a character with 2) charges of vast, evil conspiracies of prejudice towards that character and bone-deep bigotry of a TV series does not disprove the possibility.
Hypothesis: Sulu was not given opportunities for romance, perhaps in a similar way to how other Asian men were often neutered, made into clowns, or seen only as asexual wise men or exotics in 20th century popular culture. This bias could have been conscious or unconscious.
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "Show me evidence! See! You have no evidence! I win!"
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "Oh, so you're saying the entire Star Trek franchise is racist garbage and the production staff was full of bigots?"
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "Sulu the character and Takei the actor were/are well liked by fans and the production!"
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "It happened 50 years ago. Shut up about it already."
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "George Takei is a happy homosexual man."
Hypothesis: Sulu was not given opportunities for romance, perhaps in a similar way to how other Asian men were often neutered, made into clowns, or seen only as asexual wise men or exotics in 20th century popular culture. This bias could have been conscious or unconscious.
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "Show me evidence! See! You have no evidence! I win!"
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "Oh, so you're saying the entire Star Trek franchise is racist garbage and the production staff was full of bigots?"
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "Sulu the character and Takei the actor were/are well liked by fans and the production!"
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "It happened 50 years ago. Shut up about it already."
Not disproof of the hypothesis: "George Takei is a happy homosexual man."
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To be fair, Uhura wasn't the natural anything (no pun intended).
Just having a 28 year old black woman as an officer was way out there in 1966. Although she sat on the bridge, there was never any suggestion that she was a senior officer (at least not until TAS). There was only a time or two when she ordered men around, and they had to be "scrubs" wearing low-man coveralls. So of course she would not take command when the top guys were away.
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