Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[Dar70]

This doesn't appear to be the best place to express such an opinion.

I don't particularly like changing established designs either, polishing yes, but nothing too substantial. I had no problem with the Falcon looking shinier in  Solo, for example

No one should have had a problem with the Falcon looking cleaner in Solo. It was at least a full 10 years before ANH and Han trashed it pretty good by the end of Solo. Totally in keeping with the way he used/treated the ship in all the OT and first sequel film.

 

[eschaton]

I didn't realise this would be a controversial subject!

I also didn't realise that when some people say 'Why are people uncomfortable with change?' they literally meant altering past events and even established designs instead of things changing in-universe due to a progression of time. Because I'm not just uncomfortable with that idea I am absolutely 100% against it, passionately.

Fiction is all about adaptation and execution, though. For example, the novel The Maltese Falcon was adapted twice (in 1931 and 1936) before the 1941 version we now think of as canonical. Pride and Prejudice has been adapted to film/TV at least 17 times! Or, to give more modern examples, there's of course the NuBSG reboot, or how the MCU selectively reinterprets different aspects of comic canon. Speaking as not just a fan of fiction, but also a writer, one of the most fascinating things when analyzing a story is looking at the choices made in a given adaptation of an earlier work - what's left in, and what's taken out.

I mean, let's look at the classic line from Turnabout Intruder, where Lester seems to intimate that women cannot be Starfleet captains in the 23rd century. This has caused endless geek squirming, probably beginning in the 1970s, because it implies a high degree of institutionalized sexism within Starfleet. People can headcanon it as being Lester was cray-cray, and she was speaking metaphorically - that Kirk had no room for women in his life - but that was not the intent. Lester was angry that things had been held back from her as a woman. The level of casual sexism that was dripping across TOS in general is basically just ignored by the fandom, but it legit makes TOS unwatchable for some younger women. Why would an adaptation that took the great TOS stories, stripped away the sexism (and the paper-mache rocks) and presented them for new generations be bad?

 

[Noname Given]

...I mean, let's look at the classic line from Turnabout Intruder, where Lester seems to intimate that women cannot be Starfleet captains in the 23rd century. This has caused endless geek squirming, probably beginning in the 1970s, because it implies a high degree of institutionalized sexism within Starfleet. People can headcanon it as being Lester was cray-cray, and she was speaking metaphorically - that Kirk had no room for women in his life - but that was not the intent. Lester was angry that things had been held back from her as a woman. The level of casual sexism that was dripping across TOS in general is basically just ignored by the fandom in general, but it legit makes TOS unwatchable for some younger women. Why would an adaptation that took the great TOS stories, stripped away the sexism (and the paper-mache rocks) and presented them for new generations be bad?

TNG S1 Code Of Honor has entered the chat.

 

[Tuskin38]

Why don’t we just make canon bitching thread

Though maybe not with that harsh of language

 

[Turtletrekker]

TNG S1 Code Of Honor has entered the chat.

The problems with Turnabout Intruder were baked into the story at the script level. The problematic elements of Code of Honor could have been solved simply casting a more diverse guest cast

 

[137th Gebirg]

Why don’t we just make canon bitching thread

That's like... damn near every thread on the board...

 

[Yistaan]

It just occurred to me that Leila Kalomi could've met Spock on Earth during the 3 month time jump while Enterprise was in the Sol system for repairs and literally the reason Spock didn't return her affections is because he's still holding a torch for Chapel as seen in last week's episodes. That certainly would be a MASSIVE retcon of This Side of Paradise though, which implied that Spock didn't return her affections because of his Vulcan upbringing, but I'd argue that has already been steamrolled showing that Spock was still open to relationships in 2261, literally the same year he meets Leila, regardless of whether it's offscreen during the timejump or some future episode.

 

[Dar70]

Fiction is all about adaptation and execution, though. For example, the novel The Maltese Falcon was adapted twice (in 1931 and 1936) before the 1941 version we now think of as canonical. Pride and Prejudice has been adapted to film/TV at least 17 times! Or, to give more modern examples, there's of course the NuBSG reboot, or how the MCU selectively reinterprets different aspects of comic canon. Speaking as not just a fan of fiction, but also a writer, one of the most fascinating things when analyzing a story is looking at the choices made in a given adaptation of an earlier work - what's left in, and what's taken out.

I mean, let's look at the classic line from Turnabout Intruder, where Lester seems to intimate that women cannot be Starfleet captains in the 23rd century. This has caused endless geek squirming, probably beginning in the 1970s, because it implies a high degree of institutionalized sexism within Starfleet. People can headcanon it as being Lester was cray-cray, and she was speaking metaphorically - that Kirk had no room for women in his life - but that was not the intent. Lester was angry that things had been held back from her as a woman. The level of casual sexism that was dripping across TOS in general is basically just ignored by the fandom in general, but it legit makes TOS unwatchable for some younger women. Why would an adaptation that took the great TOS stories, stripped away the sexism (and the paper-mache rocks) and presented them for new generations be bad?

You are trying hard to justify... but your examples are not the same. The Maltese falcon is one story. It doesn't have the history of a shared universe that Star Trek has. Yes there have been times when they retconned small things like Janet Lester. But never in the History of all the Trek shows has there been retconning on the level we have seen with SNW and Disco.

SNW should have been its own show. But it continues to mine TOS stories, characters and just plain retcons them. There have also been some STRANGE decisions in both Kurtzman shows. Things im surprised that so many old time Trek fans dismiss or make excuses for.

I don't think many, even Fans like myself except a perfect continuity to Trek or the occasional minor Retcon. Most shows are not perfect in this regard. But to just continually rewrite past scenarios amd hiding it by mis-interpreting past events is kinda disrespectful to the original shows writers in my opinion.

They could have done so much better with this show.

 

[Dar70]

Why don’t we just make canon bitching thread

Though maybe not with that harsh of language

Well it would not even be a huge topic if the writers just had a better plan to start with.

 

[Turtletrekker]

You are trying hard to justify... but your examples are not the same. The Maltese falcon is one story. It doesn't have the history of a shared universe that Star Trek has. Yes there have been times when they retconned small things like Janet Lester. But never in the History of all the Trek shows has there been retconning on the level we have seen with SNW and Disco.

SNW should have been its own show. But it continues to mine TOS stories, characters and just plain retcons them. There have also been some STRANGE decisions in both Kurtzman shows. Things im surprised that so many old time Trek fans dismiss or make excuses for.

I don't think many, even Fans like myself except a perfect continuity to Trek or the occasional minor Retcon. Most shows are not perfect in this regard. But to just continually rewrite past scenarios amd hiding it by mis-interpreting past events is kinda disrespectful to the original shows writers in my opinion.

They could have done so much better with this show.

You're the one trying too hard to justify.

 

[Noname Given]

Well it would not even be a huge topic if the writers just had a better plan to start with.

IDK - TNG started without much of a plan for two whole seasons and its first 50 episodes but 38 years later some fans LOVE it (I do not myself - I accepted it as 'current Trek' during the time it ran; but for me it NEVER has surpassed TOS for me - and now of all the Berman era Trek, it at the bottom of my list just above the utter crapfest that was VOY.)

For myself Strange New Worlds is the EXACT Trek I wanted as a follow up, modernization of TOS.
^^^
The overall execution has been great IMO - and TOWERS above Berman era Trek.

DS9 was the closest they came and Seasons 4 - 7 were quite good; and I enjoyed S4 of ENT - but yeah, 4 seasons of good Trek during an 18 year run and 25 TV seasons, yeah - GR and Berman should have had a better plan.

 

[Dar70]

You're the one trying too hard to justify.

No I don't have to try hard. Its easy for anyone to see for themselves That want to see it.

 

[Turtletrekker]

No I don't have to try hard. Its easy for anyone to see for themselves That want to see it.

Sure, just keep telling yourself that. Maybe someday someone other than yourself will believe it. I considered a blessing and a gift to Star Trek fans everywhere that you have nothing to do with producing it.

 

[Dar70]

IDK - TNG started without much of a plan for two whole seasons and its first 50 episodes but 38 years later some fans LOVE it (I do not myself - I accepted it as 'current Trek' during the time it ran; but for me it NEVER has surpassed TOS for me - and now of all the Berman era Trek, it at the bottom of my list just above the utter crapfest that was VOY.)

For myself Strange New Worlds is the EXACT Trek I wanted as a follow up, modernization of TOS.
^^^
The overall execution has been great IMO - and TOWERS above Berman era Trek.

DS9 was the closest they came and Seasons 4 - 7 were quite good; and I enjoyed S4 of ENT - but yeah, 4 seasons of good Trek during an 18 year run and 25 TV seasons, yeah - GR and Berman should have had a better plan.

Modernization of TOS??? This is not a reboot of TOS But I suspect that is what many of you are seeing it as. Can't have both. Again I understand that production values will be better. That is a given. But why is it so hard for them to create unique stories instead of of continuing with the fan wank of TOS?

I'm surprised we havent seen Mcoy, Sulu or Chekov pop up yet... ...

 

[Dar70]

Sure, just keep telling yourself that. Maybe someday someone other than yourself will believe it. I considered a blessing and a gift to Star Trek fans everywhere that you have nothing to do with producing it.

There are more than enough fans that believe it just not on this board maybe.

 

[Noname Given]

Modernization of TOS??? This is not a reboot of TOS But I suspect that is what many of you are seeing it as. Can't have both. Again I understand that production values will be better. That is a given. But why is it so hard for them to create unique stories instead of of continuing with the fan wank of TOS?

I'm surprised we havent seen Mcoy, Sulu or Chekov pop up yet... ...

No it's NOT a reboot at all it IS a modernization of TOS.

It's definitely not both and I'm happy about that because TOS doesn't need a reboot.

 

[Dar70]

No it's NOT a reboot at all it IS a modernization of TOS.

It's definitely not both and I'm happy about that because TOS doesn't need a reboot.

Well they are definitely trying hard to rewrite much of TOS backstory. Khan, Gorn ,Spock, Kirk, Pike, Scotty, turbolift interior etc etc etc....

 

[fireproof78]

But never in the History of all the Trek shows has there been retconning on the level we have seen with SNW and Disco.

Hard disagree. Fans just worked with it rather than fight it kicking and screaming, and looking down on those who enjoy it, and laughing at them for dating to find it a nice update to a beloved series.

No it's NOT a reboot at all it IS a modernization of TOS.

It's definitely not both and I'm happy about that because TOS doesn't need a reboot.

Indeed. There's no reboot. The fact that we got more Pike is the biggest aspect of a win for me in this series.

What SNW has dared to do is upend fan expectations which is often not based on the shows themselves, but the workarounds of Inconsistencies that showed investment but now have become immovable opinions.

 

[Noname Given]

Well they are definitely trying hard to rewrite much of TOS backstory. Khan, Gorn ,Spock, Kirk, Pike, Scotty, turbolift interior etc etc etc....

Yeah, the same way Berman and Co. were rewriting the TNG era post Star Trek First Contact.

 

[Turtletrekker]

There are more than enough fans that believe it just not on this board maybe.

All I have to do is look at the various response emojis, the real ones, not the snide ones that you include in your posts, to know which way the wind blows on this board. People on this board, a Star Trek board, are growing increasingly tired of gatekeepers, canonistas and Thermians.