Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Here is my impression of The Last Jedi:

I thought it was a masterpiece. As a fan of Star Wars almost as long as I've been a Star Trek fan, I thought it was ludicrously faithful to the meaning and spirit of Star Wars. I honestly COULD NOT believe how good it is, and was utterly taken aback by the vitriol directed toward it in some corners of the internet. I would hate for that to alter the direction of the unfolding franchise.

The supposed "new" or "fresh" or "surprising" direction the franchise has been taken in has been vastly over-stated. There is nothing new. Actually its more like a fresh restatement of "old themes". If you examine the themes of the movie, they have been in Star Wars all along. Just as George Lucas originally intended, i.e. "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", the film is deeply skeptical of cynical wars that are fought to destroy, and deeply respectful of joyful causes that exist to protect life itself. Life must be an end in itself, and never a means. The Jedi have always been about the nurturing and protection of life, against the entropy of darkness and death. They stand for growth, and harmony. Their message isn't in a dogma or set of books, but reflects a timeless imperative that cannot die - the place their code really comes from is this un-killable spirit that will rise again. As Luke said, one cannot "own" the Force, it's vanity to think so - the Jedi don't have a monopoly on goodness - and it will rise again and again like the phoenix on the Rebel Alliance crest.

The film took a very relevant detour to offer a timeless criticism of modern society. Millions of children in the West languish in increasing poverty, social breakdown, and face daily cruelty while our society pats itself on the back for percentage growth and shareholder profit. Corporations don't pay their share of tax, have incredible political influence, write laws to suit themselves, and hide their money in tax havens. Canto Bight was a commentary on all of this. How people avert their eyes from the suffering that underlies it. How the ignorant are impressed by the glamour of it. Yet it was also in no way "new" to Star Wars. George Lucas filled the Prequels with timeless critiques of civic societies that forget that their wealth is their people, and he focused on corrupt political classes in the Old Republic paving way for the downfall of democracy. Star Wars was a critique of the cynicism that had set in after Vietnam. And even the original draft of Star Wars imagined the Emperor as a corrupt senator. It's in the DNA of Star Wars. Contrary to the hateful reviews, the Canto Bight mission was hugely relevant to the film, and a brilliant contrast with the nature of the Force - the growth of life.

Probably my favorite new character in Star Wars was DJ, and he was essential to the message of the film. He exemplifies many a modern person - someone who is intelligent, unflinching and clear-sighted enough to understand the hypocrisy and cruelties of the world, but who has so little faith left in any cause for change that he can only really muster a genuinely unsure "maybe" and move on with life, when confronted with a moral challenge. As G'kar in Babylon 5 once said, "There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams."

People may not like that a film is political. But Star Wars always had a message, and is for the masses, not for the privileged. This is what masses of people are going through in their daily lives. Questions of how to go on in spite of nihilism, and maintain their integrity in the face of sometimes losing everything. Going forward when your entire fleet has been reduced to a hundred survivors, and your enemy is powerful - what it is that lets you have continued dignity in those circumstances - maintain earnestness, kindness, respect for all life - is what is at the heart of the movie. It's perhaps telling, that some people who disliked Luke having a moment of weakness, blaming himself, and fearing he will only make things worse, lack the kindness to accept he is flawed and capable of error. I loved the film, utterly.

 

[Enterpriserules]

I have a review from my site which has links to podcast reviews as well.

Two years ago Star Wars roared back into the collective consciousness of the world as The Force Awakens dawned a new era for the saga. The installment left many viewers speechless and eagerly anticipating this return to a galaxy far, far away. Luckily in this era of Disney’s rule, the wait was only 2 years (with a nice side of Rogue One in the middle) for Rian Johnson’s addition, The Last Jedi.

Context

First, let’s start historically. It is clear that the original “Rebel” generation was unsuccessful in passing on it’s values to the next, as the galaxy has quickly descended back into the universe of pre-prequel. A government that became ineffectual, split into populists and centrists, all the while allowing the First Order to rise, unchallenged because, they’re not really a threat. “Relax, the First Order is the JV squad”. The greed and corruption in the galaxy has returned to what we saw in the prequels, as people line their pockets with ill gotten gain, selling weapons to the highest bidder, on any side. It all boils down to this one truth not being clearly passed on, “freedom isn’t free”, and sadly there are too few in the galaxy who seem to understand that.

Where are you getting all of this, you might ask? Well, not from the movies. All of this has been cobbled together from the ancillary materials that have come out surrounding this new sequel trilogy and that’s only, vaguely been hinted at in the films themselves. The main issue here is that The Force Awakens did very little to set up the context of the galaxy and now The Last Jedisuffers even worse because of it.

Think back to the Original Trilogy, as you watch those movies, you have an instinctive understanding of who all the characters are as well as the overall context of the movies because Lucas based them on archetypes that we know. The heroes’ journey, an evil empire and a a small group of freedom fighters looking to rescue the galaxy. In the Prequels, it’s the fall of a Republic and the story of a man that cannot let go and will do anything to hold on to what he “loves”. Each of these previous trilogies gave us the context we needed to know about the universe as a whole and the characters so that we could understand the journey we were on.

And here’s where this all comes into play, not just with the world building but with the characters. Not only do we not truly understand the state of the galaxy, but we also don’t know the history of these characters and it’s clear the writers of the film don’t either. Say what you will about Lucas, he always knew the history and the future of his creation. Some details may change along the way, but the journey ended up much the same. The same can be said for Rowling with Harry Potter , she knew the end from the beginning, so she understood what each character needed to go through to get them to that end.

It’s been clear from The Force Awakens and now through to The Last Jedi that there is no knowledge of what the end game is for their characters. Writing 101, if you don’t know their past and future, you don’t know how to write their “present”. You can see this in the all of the characters. Take Snoke. We have absolutely no idea who or what he is. We don’t know how he came to power or seduced Ben Solo, he’s a vague phantom menace so that when he goes out like a punk in this movie… well lets just say fans may be arguing whose death was better, Snoke or Boba Fett. Oh and remember Phasma? Well don’t worry, you don’t really need to, turns out she wasn’t all that important any way.

Ben suffers from this same problem we saw with Snoke, he’s completely ill defined and so is his “fall”. As with The Force Awakens, there is still no context to his story other than him having darkness in himself and somehow, Snoke temps him to the dark side. It’s all so nebulous that when he turns on Snoke, I don’t know what to make of it. There is no weight to his decision because I don’t know enough of the history of the character to actually care.

As bad as this issue is for Ben, my first impression was it was worse for Rey. The ultimate mystery box seemed to still be very much an enigma. The answer we get about her family was vague and unconvincing, I still don’t believe she’s a nobody and while I am frustrated that they skirted the issue of her family, I can see why they sidestepped that to make the focus, who she chooses to be. Her struggle for identity is fascinating. The questions of who we are, is it a product of bloodline, upbringing or are we a sum of our choices and experiences is brilliant. I think the movie comes down on the side of choices and experiences and the idea that personal responsibility is the answer is outstanding. Rey shows us that even though we are personally responsible for ourselves, we are also responsible for those around us, to look after one another, teach each other, guide one another, pass on hope to one another and the chance of redemption.

The most damaged in all of this is Luke Skywalker. We know Luke’s past, how he saved his father, who’d effectively become space Hitler, because he believed there was still good in him. By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke is the culmination of the collected wisdom of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda but greater because he avoids the mistakes of the past and forges a true, new path for the Jedi. But then, we get nothing. Oh we know Luke started a new Jedi Order and thought he could help Ben, only to be scared by his raw power and darkness. Wait, really? This is the same guy who redeemed Vader but can’t find a way to help Ben? Luke was right, “This is not going to go the way you think.” It’s as if the history of Luke has been forgotten. Now, I get the idea that Luke, like Obi-Wan, feels the pain of taking too much on, but at least Obi-Wan didn’t try to murder his student in his sleep and gave him a chance to change before delivering the “killing” blow.

Now, all that said, the lesson Luke learns about failure being part of life and how to deal with it, is actually a timely one. In life, failure is the best teacher. Yet, again, Luke’s past should have prepared him for this, his knowledge about Anakin and the help of force ghosts like Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, should have been able to help shepherd him through this ordeal, instead of running away to an island to die, screaming, “get off my lawn” to anyone who comes calling.

It is interesting that Kylo and Luke are actual after the same thing, Kylo wants to burn it all down and so does Luke, but for different reasons. Kylo because of his anger at everyone and everything and Luke because of his own hubris. He sees the Jedi as a failure, as well as himself, yet he’s blaming the wrong thing. In the end, it’s people and their choices that lead them to the dark or to the light, not the teachings of the Jedi. The Jedi texts and code are only a guide, that applied properly, promote peace, prosperity and hope in the galaxy. Over a thousand generations is not a bad run. Even though Luke gives Rey a lesson in humility in relation to the Force, it seems much to learn, he still has.

All of the issues I do have, stem from there being no direction for this trilogy. With no clear plan or endgame, this is what is left, each installment trying to make sense of the last, leading to it not always having fullest depth or payoff. This is post modern story telling at it’s worst, characters and plot without history and context that could have been more cohesive with planning.

Pass on What You Have Learned

Just as the galaxy and the characters in the movie lack context, the original characters fail to pass on their wisdom to the next generation and Luke is the biggest offender here. He seem incapable of passing on what he has learned as Yoda told him to. He’s driven by fear to almost kill Ben, and then the same fear leads him to reject training Rey for most of the movie. When he finally does train her, there is no depth or true substance to what he offers. You’d think someone with access to the original Jedi texts and a few good force ghosts would be able to provide more guidance than what we see.

Just because one has talent at something, does not mean they don’t have to practice, be taught and hone their skills. Rey is never given any of this, in the end, she’s forced to intuit who she should be for herself and from who Luke was, in the Original Trilogy. This may fit into the post modern world of “make your own way and your own truth”, but it’s not Star Wars. Lucas himself said,

“Star Wars has always struck a cord with people. There are issues of loyalty, of friendship, of good and evil…I mean, there’s a reason this film is so popular. It’s not that I’m giving out propaganda nobody wants to hear…Knowing that the film was made for a younger audience, I was trying to say, in a simple way, that there is a God and that there is both a good and bad side. You have a choice between them, but the world works much better if you’re on the good side.”

Lucas is clear, wisdom is meant to be passed on, the wisdom of failures and of triumphs. It’s what both Obi-Wan and Yoda both do for Luke. Yes, they were wrong about Anakin, but that does not mean they didn’t have wisdom to share. Proverbs reminds us, “Listen to advice and accept discipline, and at the end you will be counted among the wise.” And the place to find wisdom is through, as Job reminds us, “Is not wisdom found among the aged? Does not long life bring understanding?” Lucas was once asked how he felt about the human condition and he said,

I am very cynical, as a result, I think the defense I have against it is to be optimistic and tho think people are basically good, although I know in my heart they’re not.

It is clear that he understands that wisdom and goodness must be passed on and taught because they are not something we are born with’. Sadly Rey is left to find her own path, alone. Hopefully the books she saved from the force temple will give her some guidance, now that she is the last Jedi.

Luckily Rey seems to instinctively understand what Luke did at the end of Return of the Jedi, the Jedi are the embodiment of hope and light in the galaxy. Rey allows people to be defined by their choices, not their bloodline or possible history. She does not lose hope in that person’s chance at redemption until they make the choice to turn away from it completely. At that point, she stands on the side of the light, in it’s defense and in the defense of others. I think this is what is frustrating, is that I still feel like Luke should have been the one to show her this and he does, it’s just the Luke from the past not the present.

The only one in the movie doing any actual mentoring is Leia. Her relationship with Poe is a good example of passing on what you have learned. She gives Poe responsibility and then takes the time to discipline him, instruct him and trust him all over again when needed. Sadly the story is muddled with the interjection of Admiral Holdo, but it’s still the best example of someone passing on what they have learned to the next generation and it actually changing the character being taught.

The Movie

The plot of the movie is all over the place. The most glaring issue is with the Resistance story line. They don’t seem to know what to do with them, in the least and it leads to the worst “chase” scenes since Speed 2. There is no logic to what is happening. In space, there is no weight, so it’s all about thrust. If the First Order ships can create enough thrust, they could catch up to the Resistance ships. Another possibility is having a ship jump into the system, in “front” of the Resistance (it’s three dimensional space so there really is no “front”) and take them out. Now here is where context comes in again. Because we have no idea how big the First Order is, are we to assume that all the ships chasing the Resistance are it? And even if they are, could they just not jump “ahead” of the Resistance fleet and be done with it?

Another massive plot issue is why Admiral Holdo refuses to tell Poe and the rest of the Resistance her plan. Does she suspect a saboteur or a spy and that’s why? Well, we’ll never know, because the movie gives us no indication what she is thinking. It just creates a bad plot reason for Poe, Finn and Rose to come up with their alternative plan, to give Finn something to do.

As mentioned above, in the previous section, context creates a maelstrom of issues revolving around the plot points between Luke, Snoke, Rey and Ben. This leaves us with not always feeling the fullest weight behind who they are, the choices they make and who they become as the movie ends.

I enjoy the music, the effects are wonderful except that Yoda puppet, not too keen on his look. The design work is not bad here. Canto Bight is cool, but why is it in the movie and why is that not the story for the Resistance? Going to Canto Bight to try and rustle up support for the cause seems like a much more intriguing idea than the universe’s slowest chase. And would it kill the sequel trilogy to have some aliens we know from the rest of the series? What’s it going to take to get a freaking twi’lek in this series?

Another point of contention in the movie is the humor. Lucasfilm seems to be taking a page from the Marvel playbook and has inserted humor everywhere. Humor in itself is not a bad thing and the Star Wars saga is replete with funny moments, but The Last Jedi pushes it too far. So much of the humor that works in Star Wars is the dry, sarcastic kind that is exemplified in The Empire Strikes Back. Here, it feels forced in many places such as the constant porg jokes, Poe’s ribbing of Hux or Finn waking up in a clear suit and leaking fluids everywhere as he walks down the hall. It just does not feel as organic as it needs to, to truly work. The Star Wars franchise has it’s own rules on how things work in it and as Gareth Edwards said, “There’s such a fine line in Star Wars, if you go just slightly to the left it’s not Star Wars, it’s another sci-fi movie that doesn’t feel right. And if you go slightly to the right, you’re just copying what George did. So trying to navigate this thing where it’s new but feels fresh was like the dance that was the process of making the film.”

Conclusion

The Last Jedi suffers under the burden left to it by The Force Awakens. With no clear trajectory or plan for this trilogy, Johnson works to forge his own path but it’s one fraught with plot holes and many times, muddied character motivations. The universe, as it stands, lacks cohesion, history or context and it’s hurting the story. I love that Johnson tired to be different and some of it really works now that I have seen it a second time, while other parts still fall very flat. I love some of the moments in the movie, especially Luke’s noble end and the strong work done with the Rey/Ben/Luke story but Abrams has his work cut out for him with Episode IX. I never thought I’d say this, but J.J. Abrams, you’re our only hope. The Last Jedi is rated 3 out of 5 stars.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I actually managed to avoid all but maybe the first trailer once for this and avoided all talk and spoilers. It was interesting to not have any preconceptions going in. I thought it was good but not without some problems, on first viewing I'd probably throw it in the B range. I hesitate to give it a final rating as they always shift with the years and repeat viewings on movies like this for me.

I haven't read through this thread or all the behind-the-scenes but I get the sense that Rian Johnson was given a rather free hand to take the story where he wanted. I understand that the film has been polarizing and I can see that as it did not seem concerned with fan expectations but seemed a singular take on the story. I am curious where they go from here as this film did a number on the old guard (and, tragically, real life finished the job) and sets up for the new young cast to continue.

 

[mos6507]

Just because a man and woman have an adventure together means they HAVE to make out?

It was a G-rated moment and I suspect Finn will keep her in the friendzone.

The films definitely are missing an old fashioned romance ala Han/Leia. The casting mix really doesn't support it. Jedis are really monastic and I don't see Rey shipping with anyone (God forbid Kylo). And if they wanted to go brokeback mountain with Finn/Poe they would have done it by now.

I really think with Episoe IX they have to introduce an additional player to shift things up. She'd probably be too old in-universe but someone like Ahsoka Tano would help break up the duality and tie the new films all the way back to the prequel era better.

 

[Reverend]

But, it's Harvey Korman so...nope, you're right

Also, I agree. This franchise gets taken way to seriously ("raped my childhood!" and all that).

It's almost as if there movies are supposed to be fun or something!

I use to think so, but looking back now, it isn't as stark to my eyes:

Personally I think I might have had an easier time buying Portman as a 14 year old in TPM if I wasn't already familiar with how she actually looked around that age in 'Leon'. But I am, so it's always felt a little off to me.

 

[Cinema Geekly]

So here are the parts of TLJ I had issue with.
1. The exchange between Poe and Hux, the first cringworthy attempt of humour in this film. Works fine for a comedy but wasn't needed.
2. Luke chucking his lightsaber over his shoulder, WTF! An attempt at a cheap laugh and it completely ruins the ending of TFA for me. They could have at least have had Luke acknowledge it then throw it back in Ray's face, this would have had the same affect without looking silly.
3. Leia flying through space like Mary Poppins, I can't describe how much I hate this part.
4. The Maz Kanata scene, ridiculous and looked more like a video game! What a waste of what could have been a great character, sadly not the last time this happens in TLJ.
5. I didn't enjoy the plot with Finn and Rose on Canto Bight, it was pointless, weak, didn't make the most of the characters and wasted the potential of DJ. Seemed like Rian Johnson was just filling time.
6. The death of Snoke, I didn't mind that so much but there were no answers to who he was and because of this it didn't really have any impact on me.
7. Wasted the use of Phasma again, even more so than in TFA.
8. BB8 controlling an AT-ST, reminded me of George Lucas going overboard in the Prequels.
9. Luke's death pissed me off, I would have like to have seen him survive the new trilogy. Do we really have to kill off all the Legacy characters in order for the new characters to thrive?

My take (please indulge me I'm weak minded when it comes to lists on the internet )
1. I agree. The humor isn't that good but I overlooked it because at least it served a purpose (He was stalling while his weapons/engines were charging and Poe is a joke-y guy) so I let it slide.

2. The toss over the shoulder wouldn't have been my call but it fits with Luke's mindset when we meet him. And short of him turning it on and slicing up Storm Troopers I think a certain group of fans would have hated it no matter how he dismissed the saber.

3. I thought it was incredible! Quite a few fans have fantasized for YEARS about Leia using the force. Though in this case I feel it was treated more like an instinctual reaction in a moment of life or death.

4. This didn't really look any better or worse than her scenes in TFA to me.

5. If Rose and Finn don't go to Canto they don't meet DJ (who was kind of wasted I agree) and if they don't do that then the movie ends with no conflict. It's DJ to stabs them in the back and tells the First Order of their plan. Without that the transport ships cloak and fly to Crait undetected, Poe remains demoted, Holdo probably lives, and Poe never rises to be a leader or learn from his mistakes (which he would have never made......but still). So in my view it totally serves a purpose. I think they spent a little too much time there but I felt like Finn did have some character growth.

6. That's okay. Snoke was Palpatine from the OT. Him dying had no impact on me because it was really about Vader and Luke. I don't really care about Snoke. Sure it would be nice to know a bit more about his role in the shape of events after Episode VI but they wouldn't have added much to this movie because it's all about Ben Solo and Rey AverageJoe.

7. This might be but i always saw Phasma as a new trilogy Boba Fett. To be honest she got WAY more than Fett did but I always presumed that was going to be her role.

8. Agreed! That was a little over the top but I'd only say Ewoks driving speeders or At-St's over the top. I don't think this movie ever really comes anywhere close to prequel territory.

9. Have to? No but they are borrowing from the OT a lot in this manner. Obi wan and Yoda both die in similar fashions to Han and Luke. For all I know Leia was going to end up with the Vader funeral in episode IX (as its pretty clear that was going to be her film). I don't like seeing those character go but going is a part of life. I really enjoyed the story they told with Luke.

 

[Viper78]

My take (please indulge me I'm weak minded when it comes to lists on the internet )
1. I agree. The humor isn't that good but I overlooked it because at least it served a purpose (He was stalling while his weapons/engines were charging and Poe is a joke-y guy) so I let it slide.

2. The toss over the shoulder wouldn't have been my call but it fits with Luke's mindset when we meet him. And short of him turning it on and slicing up Storm Troopers I think a certain group of fans would have hated it no matter how he dismissed the saber.

3. I thought it was incredible! Quite a few fans have fantasized for YEARS about Leia using the force. Though in this case I feel it was treated more like an instinctual reaction in a moment of life or death.

4. This didn't really look any better or worse than her scenes in TFA to me.

5. If Rose and Finn don't go to Canto they don't meet DJ (who was kind of wasted I agree) and if they don't do that then the movie ends with no conflict. It's DJ to stabs them in the back and tells the First Order of their plan. Without that the transport ships cloak and fly to Crait undetected, Poe remains demoted, Holdo probably lives, and Poe never rises to be a leader or learn from his mistakes (which he would have never made......but still). So in my view it totally serves a purpose. I think they spent a little too much time there but I felt like Finn did have some character growth.

6. That's okay. Snoke was Palpatine from the OT. Him dying had no impact on me because it was really about Vader and Luke. I don't really care about Snoke. Sure it would be nice to know a bit more about his role in the shape of events after Episode VI but they wouldn't have added much to this movie because it's all about Ben Solo and Rey AverageJoe.

7. This might be but i always saw Phasma as a new trilogy Boba Fett. To be honest she got WAY more than Fett did but I always presumed that was going to be her role.

8. Agreed! That was a little over the top but I'd only say Ewoks driving speeders or At-St's over the top. I don't think this movie ever really comes anywhere close to prequel territory.

9. Have to? No but they are borrowing from the OT a lot in this manner. Obi wan and Yoda both die in similar fashions to Han and Luke. For all I know Leia was going to end up with the Vader funeral in episode IX (as its pretty clear that was going to be her film). I don't like seeing those character go but going is a part of life. I really enjoyed the story they told with Luke.

Some good counter points there but I stick with what I wrote. I think this just shows how divisive TLJ is, some have loved it while others like me dislike it.

 

[Wouter]

Here is my impression of The Last Jedi:




The film took a very relevant detour to offer a timeless criticism of modern society. Millions of children in the West languish in increasing poverty, social breakdown, and face daily cruelty while our society pats itself on the back for percentage growth and shareholder profit. Corporations don't pay their share of tax, have incredible political influence, write laws to suit themselves, and hide their money in tax havens. Canto Bight was a commentary on all of this. How people avert their eyes from the suffering that underlies it. How the ignorant are impressed by the glamour of it.

Canto Bight seemed very dishonest as a social commentary, to me. Not only was it handled in a very unsubtle way - with Finn first saying he liked the place (why, is gambling in lavish environments such a fantastic thing?) and then first Rose and later DJ outright lecturing the audience. Especially DJ's contention "they are all arms dealers and they sell to both sides at once" makes a rather ridiculous impression. As if those are the only people who come to a casino. As if it would be likely that the Empire and /or the First Order and/or the rebellion would allow key suppliers to also work for the enemy (we're talking advanced spacecraft as X-Wings and Tie-fighters here, not mere commodities)?
But the main reason it rings false is that Disney itself has a hand in promoting gambling to children, along with their licence holder Electronic Arts. See https://www.theguardian.com/games/2...tors-to-investigate-loot-boxes-in-video-games (for example).
As a rich corporation, Disney's top management and shareholders would themselves not be amiss as people in that casino.

A better way to handle the scene would have been Finn - who used to be in The First Order, after all - recognise some of those men from the get-go as suppliers from TFO. Rose could then have pointed out some she knew. And leave it at that.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I kind of felt the same about Luke. I felt like I was watching a real human being instead of a hero template. It WAS a bit of a bummer, but the way I view things, that's actually part of the fun.

Personally, I have no problem with Luke no longer being the young, energetic, swashbuckling hero of the original trilogy. Time has passed both in-universe for the character as well as for the actor playing him. So it made sense to give us an older and different Luke. And as a casual SW fan, I was not offended by the Luke in this movie but I can see why some hardcore fans were troubled. I wish we had gotten more training scenes with Rey. And I would have liked to see Luke come back for real instead of using the force projection trick and really show us some powerful lightsaber skills. I would have had Luke defeat Kylo on the ice planet in an epic lightsaber battle but spare him to amend for his past mistake and let Kylo flee. And I would not have killed Luke off but kept him alive to continue training Rey in the next movie.

 

[JD]

I'm honestly kind of shocked that people are surprised that the OT heroes are dying in these movies. I pretty much knew from the moment they announced Han, Luke and Leia were coming back that all three of them would be dead by the end of the trilogy.

 

[Trekkin]

why, is gambling in lavish environments such a fantastic thing?

Because he’s a fucking child soldier, who was kidnapped and indoctrinated into a Nazi cult as an infant, then apparently spent most of his life serving on various milktary ships and superweapons in the middle of nowhere?

The real question is why your run of the mill, middle class tourist, is impressed by their first trip to the Vegas Strip?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

6. That's okay. Snoke was Palpatine from the OT. Him dying had no impact on me because it was really about Vader and Luke.

The difference was profound in two categories: In ANH, Vader was already what Kylo Ren was not: a great, effective villain, so when the Emperor was introduced in ESB, the entire Star Wars world and its mystique grew exponentially by having an already legendary screen and in-universe villain in Vader in a genuinely submissive role to this grim, near-snarling projection. That's the opposite of Snoke, who was just a "we need a Sidious in this series" stand-in. He had no presence, no magnetism as an evil figure--just another painfully CG "bad guy" that meant noting, therefore his relationship to Kylo Ren (and anyone else) meant noting. The glaring contrast to Palaptine is that no matter how powerful and malevolent Vader seemed to be (especially after all of the damage he inflicted on the protagonists in ESB), there was this one figure--a true corrupt opposite of Yoda--generating fear and respect from Vader.

By the time of ROTJ, Palpatine was the most anticipated character after Luke, and long before his actual confrontation with Luke, he was a larger than life presence and influence on all plot points in the film. This was a highly successful character, hence the reason audiences were on the edge of the seat as he was electrocuting Luke, and actually on their feet cheering (at least on premiere night at the Egyptian Theatre back in 1983) when Vader hurled him down the shaft. In other words, the audience was emotionally invested in the Emperor enough to be absolutely overjoyed to see him meet his end.

That is the reason fans looked forward to seeing his early years when the prequels were announced.

Snoke was never developed, coughed up some sound-alike "Sith-isms" and was not the overshadowing influence on the lives of the heroes in the Palpatine was. So, you did not get much from that, but innumerable moviegoers, series fans, et al., thought his role--and ultimately death (in the OT) was one of its most important, memorable events.

7. This might be but i always saw Phasma as a new trilogy Boba Fett. To be honest she got WAY more than Fett did but I always presumed that was going to be her role.

At least Fett's original intent--to be a sinister bounty hunter--played a significant role in his debut movie. Phasma was the product of anything other than creating a character with impact on events. She made a couple of snarky comments about resident fool/clown Finn, stomped around, and that was it. There was no disappointment in Phasma's death, because she--like Snoke--meant nothing.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Respectfully, I would say that Jar-Jar did that for me more than anything else in the SW films.

Certainly, Jar Jar's idiocy/obvious marketing scheme took audiences out of The Phantom Menace, but Rose was bad and felt like a character meant for some web series on obsessive Star Wars fans, instead of being a character with a reason to be in the film.

 

[Trekkin]

instead of being a character with a reason to be in the film.

The other day, I was reading an interesting discussion about how many ‘internet’ critics seem to approach movies as a puzzle. Or basically, they only view a movie through an odd Thermian/Watsonian perspective.

Every single thing on screen must serve some sort of overall grand purpose solely within the actual narrative. It must contribute something to some sort of scheme or lore. No other reason is ever considered, or counts as a ‘good one.’

Of course, that’s not how movies work. Writers of fiction ‘include’ (create) anything for no real greater reason than they had a whim. When you see actual writers or filmmakers talk about ‘superfluous’ elements, they’re usually using self-induced technical constraints as their reference. For eg. You cut or combine characters to avoid paying an actor. You cut a plotline or scene to stick to a designated runtime or page count, etc.

Because if you take it from the other direction, most things aren’t ‘necessary’ to construct story. Including sets, music, or actors.

 

[fireproof78]

Certainly, Jar Jar's idiocy/obvious marketing scheme took audiences out of The Phantom Menace, but Rose was bad and felt like a character meant for some web series on obsessive Star Wars fans, instead of being a character with a reason to be in the film.

I at least understand Rose better than Jar-Jar.

 

[Qonundrum]

Question/supposition:

One thing episodes 7 and 8 do is having people use the Force with no real realization or in-depth training, the most Rey got was something akin to a 2 hour symposium in computer science compared to a 2 year degree that gets to the nitty gritty. This either makes Rey super-dee-duper bright (like Mary Sue on meth, and Kylo too seems to be able to do a lot so how much did he figure out on his own to be so much more powerful than anything Vader never did and Snoke doesn't seem to be the type to do after-school tutorials), or the universe is so far out of balance that the Force has a pandimensional consciousness thingy of its own and is ramping up its own game because Anakin failed and Luke failed, and now everything's worse in the SW universe. Or that's my new hope, since unresolved questions are all over the place. Not big questions, but compared to eps IV-VI the new ones do seem to do a lot more despite having a lot less training or realization.

 

[Beagleman]

Saw it for a third time last night and it has cemented itself as my #3 on the SW ladder right behind Empire and Rogue One, interestingly TFA is my least favourite one.

 

[Ithekro]

Question/supposition:

One thing episodes 7 and 8 do is having people use the Force with no real realization or in-depth training, the most Rey got was something akin to a 2 hour symposium in computer science compared to a 2 year degree that gets to the nitty gritty. This either makes Rey super-dee-duper bright (like Mary Sue on meth, and Kylo too seems to be able to do a lot so how much did he figure out on his own to be so much more powerful than anything Vader never did and Snoke doesn't seem to be the type to do after-school tutorials), or the universe is so far out of balance that the Force has a pandimensional consciousness thingy of its own and is ramping up its own game because Anakin failed and Luke failed, and now everything's worse in the SW universe. Or that's my new hope, since unresolved questions are all over the place. Not big questions, but compared to eps IV-VI the new ones do seem to do a lot more despite having a lot less training or realization.

What if its the opposite. That Anakin and Luke managed to balance the Force when they ended the Sith three decades prior that the Force now flows better galaxy wide and had become easier to learn, rather than harder to learn. Near the end of the Jedi, they couldn't see with the Force clearly anymore. Their abilities diminished. While the Sith were powerful, they too seemed to have problems, possibly due to their nature and their practices (just two of them at a time). The Force out of balance perhaps restructured its flow for centuries, the slowed levels of its availability over time might not have even been noticed because it was a slow ebbing of the Force. But the legends of old Sith and Jedi powers seemed to dwarf anything anyone did in the Clone Wars or beyond....perhaps until Ren and Rey.

 

[{ Emilia }]

First, let’s start historically. It is clear that the original “Rebel” generation was unsuccessful in passing on it’s values to the next, as the galaxy has quickly descended back into the universe of pre-prequel.

I will say I found the setting of the first EU novels to be more interesting. A well-meaning fledgling New Republic that is still trying to rebuild being threatened by somebody who's able to rebuild the remains of the Empire.
But man, the "New Republic" was casually and with no emotional impact blown out of space in TFA and it makes you wonder what the hell the Rebel leaders did in the 25 years since the Battle of Endor. It irritated me.

But in the end I came to accept that this just wasn't the story they wanted to tell. They didn't want to show us the New Republic or show us Senate debates about a new threat, so they narrowed it down to focus on the characters in an outer rim world. They wanted it to be like ANH, not like the Prequel Trilogy.

Am I completely happy with it? No, but I'll manage.

Where are you getting all of this, you might ask? Well, not from the movies. All of this has been cobbled together from the ancillary materials that have come out surrounding this new sequel trilogy and that’s only, vaguely been hinted at in the films themselves. The main issue here is that The Force Awakens did very little to set up the context of the galaxy and now The Last Jedisuffers even worse because of it.

Think back to the Original Trilogy, as you watch those movies, you have an instinctive understanding of who all the characters are as well as the overall context of the movies because Lucas based them on archetypes that we know.

I think you're looking back at the OT with rose-coloured glasses.
Who's the Emperor? Does he even have a name? What's a Darth? The OT doesn't give you significantly more information on these things than the new movies do. Maybe the new movies make you assume a little more but the meaning of "Knights of Ren" is about as mysterious as the meaning of "Darth" was before the prequels. What we do get very little of is the "state of the galaxy" when it comes to the good guys' side. You don't see a New Republic or anything but we get plenty of insight into the First Order, just like we did into the Empire.
You're looking at decades of additional information about the state of the galaxy in ANH but the information given in that movie is pretty vague.

The heroes’ journey, an evil empire and a a small group of freedom fighters looking to rescue the galaxy.

And which of these elements does not apply to the new movies? They're exactly the same. Just replace Empire with First Order.

Not only do we not truly understand the state of the galaxy, but we also don’t know the history of these characters and it’s clear the writers of the film don’t either. Say what you will about Lucas, he always knew the history and the future of his creation.

I lol'd.
Lucas made it up along the way.

It’s been clear from The Force Awakens and now through to The Last Jedi that there is no knowledge of what the end game is for their characters.

This is what I'm suspecting as well and it seems very JJ-like to create mystery without knowing the conclusions himself. Like those visions Rey had, even including Obi-Wan's voice. And then they just deconstruct it because that's what you do these days.
(I do get the appeal of having Rey be a nobody but I doubt JJ had actually planned that the way he set it up in TFA.)

I wonder if they really hadn't planned the basic plot for all three movies. :/

Ben suffers from this same problem we saw with Snoke, he’s completely ill defined and so is his “fall”.

To be fair we knew fuck all about Vader's fall in the OT yet we still accepted it.
After having watched the prequels I'm even less convinced because the whole thing is such nonsense.

As with The Force Awakens, there is still no context to his story other than him having darkness in himself and somehow, Snoke temps him to the dark side.

And that differs from Vader in the OT how?
It doesn't. Again you're watching the OT with rose-tinted glasses.

The most damaged in all of this is Luke Skywalker. We know Luke’s past, how he saved his father, who’d effectively become space Hitler, because he believed there was still good in him. By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke is the culmination of the collected wisdom of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda but greater because he avoids the mistakes of the past and forges a true, new path for the Jedi. But then, we get nothing. Oh we know Luke started a new Jedi Order and thought he could help Ben, only to be scared by his raw power and darkness. Wait, really? This is the same guy who redeemed Vader but can’t find a way to help Ben? Luke was right, “This is not going to go the way you think.” It’s as if the history of Luke has been forgotten. Now, I get the idea that Luke, like Obi-Wan, feels the pain of taking too much on, but at least Obi-Wan didn’t try to murder his student in his sleep and gave him a chance to change before delivering the “killing” blow.

Look, Luke was my childhood hero. I read the EU novels because of him (and Mara...). I loved the way Zahn wrote him and his growth. But obviously Luke was still the protagonist of the EU.

But did you seriously expect the new movies to show us THAT Luke? There would be no movie. The new protagonists would've been brushed aside and the fantastic Jedi master would've been the hero saving the day. Heck, he even ended up saving the day after he recovered from "broken Luke" state. Luke already dominated much of TLJ but with him being perfect Luke he'd be the sole focus of the story, leading the rebellion and the fight. Why even bother with new characters then?

The fangirl in me would've loved to see him do all this and I was quite annoyed when I realized he's dead. Mostly because I was surprised. There's this amazing twist, like "haha, he tricked Kylo, he isn't even there so Kylo can't kill him!!!"... and then he just dies anyway. Pretty silly, I thought, at least when I watched the movie for the first time. When Han died in TFA I was sad and felt the drama but when Luke died I was like "huh?".
The thing is, the scene worked much better when I watched TLJ a second time. The sacrifice and... ascendance (?)... worked much better now that I knew it's coming.

The Jedi texts and code are only a guide, that applied properly, promote peace, prosperity and hope in the galaxy.

I thought the prequels made it obvious that the Jedi philosophy is a bunch of bullshit and Yoda seems to finally have realized it as well. The whole "love and emotions are bad!"-angle that was added as a plot device to keep Anakin from Padme was just so incredibly dumb that I can't respect the Jedi philosophy at all.
That's what Luke finally learned as well.

In my mind that's what Luke had achieved in the EU, too. Rebuilding the Jedi without the nonsense.

All of the issues I do have, stem from there being no direction for this trilogy. With no clear plan or endgame, this is what is left, each installment trying to make sense of the last, leading to it not always having fullest depth or payoff. This is post modern story telling at it’s worst, characters and plot without history and context that could have been more cohesive with planning.

If you don't know the meaning of "postmodern", I suggest you don't use the term.
I'm a huge fan of postmodern literature and you're throwing it around as a buzzword that doesn't mean what you think it means.

Postmodern art recognizes that it always references previous works of art. Postmodern art is full of context and history.
I heard Umberto Eco spinning in his grave when he read your post.

When he finally does train her, there is no depth or true substance to what he offers. You’d think someone with access to the original Jedi texts and a few good force ghosts would be able to provide more guidance than what we see.

Not if the "original Jedi texts" are a bunch of nonsense, which the prequels strongly imply.

Just because one has talent at something, does not mean they don’t have to practice, be taught and hone their skills. Rey is never given any of this, in the end, she’s forced to intuit who she should be for herself and from who Luke was, in the Original Trilogy.

I do hope Force Ghost Luke gives her some additional training. I agree that this was a bit pointless in TLJ. I had expected more of a Yoda on Dagobah situation.

Hopefully the books she saved from the force temple will give her some guidance, now that she is the last Jedi.

Aww, heck, no. So that she can also live the dumb creed of "Jedi are not allowed to love"?

The only one in the movie doing any actual mentoring is Leia. Her relationship with Poe is a good example of passing on what you have learned. She gives Poe responsibility and then takes the time to discipline him, instruct him and trust him all over again when needed. Sadly the story is muddled with the interjection of Admiral Holdo, but it’s still the best example of someone passing on what they have learned to the next generation and it actually changing the character being taught.

Except it's not really the mentoring Poe learns from. Poe, Finn and Rose are ultimately responsible for almost killing the whole Rebellion and even killing Luke. The First Order wouldn't have known about Holdo's plan if not for DJ who was only there because of Poe/Finn/Rose.
What Poe learns from are those mistakes and he learns that surviving is sometimes more important than a heroic death.

worst “chase” scenes since Speed 2.

Yeah.

And would it kill the sequel trilogy to have some aliens we know from the rest of the series? What’s it going to take to get a freaking twi’lek in this series?

Who gives a shit? That is some nitpicking right there. It's a big galaxy.

Another point of contention in the movie is the humor. Lucasfilm seems to be taking a page from the Marvel playbook and has inserted humor everywhere.

I've also called the humour in TLJ "Marvel humour" and I wasn't a fan either. Poe's prank call to Hux pulled me out of the movie just a few seconds into it so there's that. And while I generally hate those big melodramatic irony-free Hollywood scenes, I felt that Luke chucking the lightsaber over his shoulder was just a little too silly and kinda killed the beautiful grand finale of TFA.
Like they were desperately trying to be Marvel-cool.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

To be fair we knew fuck all about Vader's fall in the OT yet we still accepted it.
After having watched the prequels I'm even less convinced because the whole thing is such nonsense.

Honestly, what made Anakin Skywalker evil ceased being compelling after AOTC: he had an attachment disorder.

ETA:

I've also called the humour in TLJ "Marvel humour" and I wasn't a fan either. Poe's prank call to Hux pulled me out of the movie just a few seconds into it so there's that. And while I generally hate those big melodramatic irony-free Hollywood scenes, I felt that Luke chucking the lightsaber over his shoulder was just a little too silly and kinda killed the beautiful grand finale of TFA.
Like they were desperately trying to be Marvel-cool.

While a lot of the humor was an attempt to copy others, I think that Luke being a little weird and using humor to avoid being serious at least made him like Yoda in ESB. On some level, we should expect him to be less than serious.