Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[Ithekro]

The thing is that the Canto Bight part starts off telling us one thing, and ends with us finding out that Rose's notion about the place was wrong (partly) and that the resolution was better than what was suggested at the start.

At first we are told that these people are scum that help the First Order build itself up via mining and weapons sales. That their amusements com eat the suffering of others. What we are presented with later is that these people are just rich people that make money selling to whomever is willing to pay, be it the First Order, the New Republic, the Resistance, it doesn't matter to them really as the galaxy will be more or less the same regardless of what's going on (minus a few blown up planets of course). They still gain amusements, but it is those that cater to the rich that are the ones causing the suffering of the animals and getting slave children to tend the animals. The rich could care less of course.

Rose's starting point and what she impressed on Finn at first was that a place like this should be ruined for the suffering it caused to people. But the message we get at the end was not about causing harm to those that make others suffer, but to free those that are suffering. Freeing the animals to run free was enough for Rose, while Finn got the wrong message. This message was repeated at the Battle of Crait. Finn was about to attempt a futile heroic sacrifice to hurt the First Order. In vengeance. Rose stopped him, because it wouldn;'t work, giving up his life for nothing, a life she didn't want to lose. Instead she imparts the idea that one should fight for what one loves, rather than against what one hates. That is a Jedi message, one that the Jedi forgot while fighting the Clone Wars, and one that nearly cost the entire galaxy if Luke hadn't decided to not fight anymore at the end. Forcing Anakin to come out one last time to save something he loved, what he had failed to do with Padme decades ago. You don't fight the Empire because you hate it, you fight to save those you love. That was also partly what switched Han Solo from being all about himself to caring enough to save the galaxy and to attempt to bring his son home.

 

[DigificWriter]

That’s not how I saw the Holdo and Poe exchange. I saw it not so much as Holdo teaching Poe as lesson as asserting her authority. Poe was impulsive and reckless and she knew she had to pull his card immediately to keep him in line. The point was she pulled his chain too hard IMO which prompted him to first undermine her authority by agreeing to Finn and Rose’s mission and then to pull a mutiny. Granted, Leia and Holdo are old friends, and Leia has a kind of maternalistic relationship with Poe, but I didn’t sense that extended to how Holdo herself felt about Poe. If anything she voiced displeasure at his ‘type’ of soldiering early on, though later on, in her final talk with Leia, she does say she likes him. (That part could indicate that Holdo saw herself as instructing him on some level, but to me that’s open to interpretation).

If you watch the film again, pay attention to Leia and Holdo's scene where they talk about Poe being a "flyboy"; one of the purposes of that scene is to communicate that the pair were trying to teach Poe a lesson in humility.

 

[Turtletrekker]

TLJ is today's ESB.

ESB was definitely not universally loved when it was released. But 37 years later, it's regarded as one of the best of the franchise.

Kor

I can't speak for anyone else, but I left the theater after TESB even more awestruck than after the first Star Wars. While I did I see Star Wars in the theater in '77 like everyone else, my obsession with the franchise didn't begin until Empire.

 

[Set Harth]

I don’t know dude, but we were somehow managing before you brought it up.

That's not an answer. If you don't know a reason to care otherwise, I guess you can understand why someone might think an interest in the Skywalker bloodline was about Force users.

Yeah...a decade or so after the movies started. And of course, the latest movies thouroughly deconstruct that. (Fuck, the prequels arguably deconstructed that.)

What an incoherent mess. I was talking about The Last Jedi, which came out 40 years after the movies started. The point was that material in TLJ itself goes against this "thorough deconstruction" you've imagined. ( Points for seemingly attacking the prequels for doing something while at the same time claiming they did the opposite. )

Besides, the Skywalkers in the actual movies aren’t ‘special’ because of anything to do with ‘The Force.’

Sure, whatever... this begins to seem like a circular argument.

When? Quote it.

You know when. The famous 'seduction'.

It really doesn’t. As the use of ‘should’ instead of ‘does’ shows you’re well aware of. Plus even a die hard proponent of auteur theory would probably concede that ‘intent’ ceases to matter when you literally sell all creative decisions to someone else.

It's all still there in the film. Movies are canon, right? Or does that ruling not apply to prequels? The creative decisions being sold to someone else doesn't matter quite as much as you seem to think. Disney can obviously do what they want going forward, but this wasn't something where we had to depend on a public statement from the franchise owner. It was based on noticeable implications from the film, including sound effects and everything.

And how exactly does having sex take away from Shmi’s characterisation?

Not the having sex, the being an ignorant type who lies to Qui-Gon for no good reason.

No, not fan ideology. It was very much Lucasfilms official stance. They actually codified ‘Tiers of canon’, because we were apparently really too obtuse to just not sweat the small stuff.

Except 'Tiers of canon' did not give you 'only movies are canon'. It said that only the lowest tier was non-canon, while other things were only in jeopardy where they contradicted the movies.

 

[Reverend]

Finally got to see it and I honestly don't get what a lot of the naysayers are bitching about. It was awesome. Very confidently directed, amazing digital effects as always, I think even better practical effects that TFA for the most part and a near perfect melding of the two when it was required. It's clear from the writing that this director has a *much* firmer grasp on the granular texture of what Star Wars is and is not than JJA. All of the force stuff feels spot on and in line with how Lucas has always talked about it and shown it in his movies and TCW.

Still collecting my thoughts and may need a second viewing to digest it, but for now I'd just like to say how pleased I am at how they handled Rey's parents. I've been saying for going on two years now that I really prefer the notion that she came from nothing and isn't some lost scion of the Jedi, be it Skywalker or Kenobi. Can't be arsed to find the old post but I think I even specifically suggested that here family were lowlifes that sold her off to pay some petty debt.

I liked how unpredictable the movie was as a whole and how it went out of it's way to subvert expectations.

Sadly, thanks to a careless TV presenter interviewing John Boyega live last week, Yoda's appearance was spoiled for me. That's a shame since I felt like it did diminish the scene for me somewhat.

The only real criticism I have is that the Rose/Finn adventure felt a little too disconnected from everything else. Which is a shame since I love the performance and character of Rose and that story had some fairly meaty plot points.

 

[Set Harth]

All of the force stuff feels spot on and in line with how Lucas has always talked about it and shown it in his movies and TCW.

I don't see much of a difference between TFA's and TLJ's portrayals of the Force.

 

[starsuperion]

Unpredictable, I may be able to agree with. Original? No... I half expected cylon fighters from BSG reboot to attack the resistance convoy, but then I realized, tie fighters, oh right..this is Star wars..

 

[Trekker4747]

The Last Jedi--

It's rare to see a franchise jump off of a cliff in such a rapid, wrongheaded way. It would be too easy to list the high number of plot holes, apparent inability to write a story that even feels like it's part of the Star Wars film franchise, but that is the least of TLJ's problems. Clear minds were well aware of a Kathleen Kennedy's blatant disrespect for the series films she worked on under George Lucas, considering the dismissive treatment of the franchise's spirit and original concepts, but its the larger message of this slapped together, Star Wars-In-Name-Only film that makes it worthless: the agenda machine on "full"--non-stop.

What kind of agenda...

As The Force Awakens opened in theaters, innumerable members of the audience believed the relationship between Rey and Finn was supposed to be the growing love story of the Sequel Trilogy, in the way Han & Leia or even Anakin & Padme were. The on-screen chemistry and development between Finn and Rey was so natural, that it was often credited as the best plot-line or anything else of TFA. While the obvious played out on screens, a loud group of "fans" on the streets, in social media and elsewhere launched what amounted to a fullisade of "Never Rey+Finn" statements/posts, claiming everything from Finn merely being "A friend", to seeing some (nonexistent) romantic connection between Rey and Kylo Ren, to the ever code-worded "Finn is wrong for her".

This anti Rey+Finn cry is born from a very real and sizable part of sci-fi/fantasy fandom, many claiming or full on campaigning for any kind of social politics being grafted to every production, yet the second any film or TV series either explores or even suggests interracial romance--especially when the female is white and the male is black--an enormous outcry fills the general conversation / informs the perception of a production, with many, self-described "open-armed", "everything is fine" liberals (from fans to those who run or work for media channels, blogs, etc.) revealing the same negative reaction, thinly veiled by the "he's just wrong for her" crying. A similarly negative reaction / fight was seen in the case of TV's Supergirl, where endless numbers of fans either fell back to the "he's just wrong for her" argument, or made openly racist statements about the James Olsen character (and/or actor Mehcad Brooks) with "why does it have to be him??", so they were elated when their inverted prayers were answered in season two of the series.

Its an old reaction to the black male/white female in media issue, but it takes on Brobdingnagian proportions when the hostility to such relationships comes from those selling themselves as the most tolerant, open-minded people at the top of the mountain--the ideologically liberal behind the camera, and numbers of their audience. It is clear that Kathleen Kennedy and others involved in the production of this Star Wars sequel trilogy were (ultimately) willing to only go so far with the sequel series' most natural, pointed relationship, which was evident in The Last Jedi. Knowing the relationship had to be addressed--if only to get it out of the way of the real end-game waiting around the corner--episode 8...

• Rey tells Chewbacca if he sees Finn before she does, tell him...only for Chewbacca finishing what seemed to have been a clear as day sentiment. Of course, the traditionally subtitle translation-free Chewbacca (convenient) had the "honor" of finishing Rey's thought, but it would remain hidden (or so the producers thought) as if playing a childish game of "if it's not heard, it didn't happen ".
• Further, Finn's first thought coming out of recovery was not about himself, but Rey, because she means everything to him; he's so dedicated to her that he's willing to leave the Resistance with homing device so Rey would not return to what he believed to be the eventual slaughter of the Resistance ships. Fight for freedom be damned, but that illustrated just how much she means to him, which, if Finn was played by someone less...brown...the end result would have been a sweeping build toward a romance during the darkest of times...the ESB parallel.

Instead of continuing to build on all that was established in TFA and the LJ points above, in comes the producer approved wrench hurled into the works...in the form of Rose, an aggressively shoehorned character filled with Hollywood Limousine Liberal talking points (the infantile commentary during the over the top casino sequence), who had no romantic chemistry with Finn, and certainly did not ever hint at a romantic interest. Worst of all, Finn--the same Finn willing to abandon the hunted Resistance to protect/reunite with Rey--suddenly (in the last act) seems to have some interest in Rose after her peck and out of nowhere, heartless admission of "love". That's called the "separate Finn from Rey with absolutely unbelievable plotting served up on a pile of bullshit" maneuver.

The clear as day cherry (or horsefly, considering what this was built on) on top is the quickie Poe-meets-Rey scene, as if there's any connection between them suggesting a future romance. Message received: there is no way the most charismatic characters with honest romantic potential will ever fulfill that connection because a part of the liberal entertainment business--and a loud part of its audience--resent the idea of a black male romantically linked with a white woman. For all of the social justice campaigning in the Star Wars sequels (like Poe and Finn are so easily shocked/knocked around and treated like idiots), someone should remind the producers to evolve while they're telling everyone else to do the same.

The Last Jedi is the most controversial Star Wars movie to date--for a sea of reasons regarding quality, intent, its lack of continuity with the artistic visiting of the franchise creator, etc., but its greatest failing is the one that appeared to be part of its greatest agenda.

I'm not hopeful that episode 9 will set right what so terribly wrong about this sequel series.

You cannot be serious with all of this.

 

[starsuperion]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I left the theater after TESB even more awestruck than after the first Star Wars. While I did I see Star Wars in the theater in '77 like everyone else, my obsession with the franchise didn't begin until Empire.

Well I was born in 77, so to young to see the original, but my best friend's 18 year old half brother took me and him to see Empire..I was actually scared to see what Vader was going to do with Luke. At cloud city..oh yea, the fear was real. I even jumped when Vader came out of nowhere on luke before he lost his hand.

The movie set iconic precedents that are still used today. TESB was my first Star Wars movie in theatre. Otherwise I caught it on TV when they reran it for the TESB opening. I also went to Spaceballs in theatre..great movie!! ROTJ was also good at the time..the ewoks later became annoying on reviewing. But the battle in the death star II was also intense..

You felt Luke's pain, and felt his power as a jedi had grown, along with his confidence and convictions in the force.

Not so much now, the Luke I watched in horror in TLJ wasn't the same man. Same actor..Same name..not the same person or values instilled within him. I was expecting Qui Gon Jin. I got a mumbling holographic Mr. Magoo!

 

[JD]

Tor.com's Molly Templeton has pretty interesting article about Why Canto Bight is Vital To the Last Jedi.

 

[Trekkin]

That's not an answer. If you don't know a reason to care otherwise, I guess you can understand why someone might think an interest in the Skywalker bloodline was about Force users.

Or because the existence of ‘Skywalkers’ is recurring element in the franchise that people have grown attached to, and has probably run its course. The sadness about that was expressed by mourning that, in universe, the family is all dead.

Except in universe, it’s probably not. So one less level of things to be sad about.

That was it.

What an incoherent mess. I was talking about The Last Jedi,

Who in the Last Jedi said Skywalkers were special? Well, except Snoke. Who is presented as having horrible judgement.

And I honestly have no idea why you’d think it’s a criticism to point out that the PT presented ‘Chosen One’ narratives as not being necessarily good things. Being a ‘child of destiny’ and whatnot is explicitly the cause of half Anakin’s issues.

You know when. The famous 'seduction'.

‘Fraid not. Quote the relevant parts for me.

Not the having sex, the being an ignorant type who lies to Qui-Gon for no good reason.

That’s not what I said.

There’s a lot of situations that can lead to someone saying ‘I don’t know what happened. There was no father.’

Except 'Tiers of canon' did not give you 'only movies are canon'. It said that only the lowest tier was non-canon, while other things were only in jeopardy where they contradicted the movies.

That’s certainly one way of looking at it. It wasn’t Lucasfilms towards the end though.

As put by Chris Cerasi

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Even without Leia, the Skywalker line isn't dead yet. There is still another, Kylo Ren. You know, grandson of Darth Vader?

 

[crookeddy]

Even without Leia, the Skywalker line isn't dead yet. There is still another, Kylo Ren. You know, grandson of Darth Vader?

How do you satisfyingly end his arc without killing him?

 

[crookeddy]

https://decider.com/2017/12/21/mark-hamill-not-my-luke-skywalker

Hamill seems like he still hates this interpretation of the character.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

TREK_GOD-1

Thank you for this well-written and well-thought piece. I knew though from TFA that they wouldn't let Finn and Rey get together because of that unease many in society have with black male/white female romantic/sexual relationships. Curiously, there isn't the same, or at least at the same level, of trepidation or queasiness when it comes to depicting black women and white men in relationships.

Historically, black women were never viewed as a threat to white (primarily male) sexual prowess and identity in the societies where they (white people) were the dominant power and/or influence. I will not make a blanket judgement about all white males, but again, history has played witness to black men not only painted as a sexual threat (by those shaping the/controlling Western society--white males) to social and sexual relations to white women, with some white women adopting this belief as well, to the point where every dehumanizing stereotype--from black men somehow having some "magical" sexual hold over white women, to being "predators"--and an encyclopedia's worth of other despicable examples of racial character assassination.

Not surprising for the DC/CW TV series, but there was and remains a level of hatred toward the Iris character on The Flash; the argument centered on her (here we go again) not being "right" for the hero, to unfounded claims of her being "irritating" without offering any explanation why. Some were not afraid to criticize her race being the problem, but it is by no means on the level of attacks against the relationships in question.

This is something quite frequent in mass entertainment I’ve seen. If there are black male/white female relationships (ex. Diggle and Lyla on Arrow) they are rarely, if ever shown. They are afterthoughts that the shows are not dwelling on and they are likely not going to be the central relationships of any show. They are so far into the background that it’s almost nonexistent. And we rarely see them in romantic and sexual relationships, as I feel there is an uneasiness and/or fear over black sexuality, especially black male sexuality.

Yes. On point.

I thought they made Finn too comical in TFA, too bumbling, fearful, and in need of rescue to appeal to an Alpha like Rey.

Kathleen Kennedy's other agenda at work: the only way to make a female character appear strong/assertive, etc., is to make the males weak, ineffectual clowns, something the Original Trilogy (released from 1977-1983--an arguably less "evolved" period than 2015/2017) did not need to do for Leia to appear strong or an effective leader. Says much about certain ideologues' brand of 21st century equality.

Also making him a janitor, and not something badass that might make him more appealing in her eyes. I guess Hollywood really needed to show one more black domestic.

Agreed. A character can exhibit some comedic traits without being the total racial sideshow like some modern day Mantan Moreland. But as you point out, making Finn a janitor instead of a trooper who--for example--worked in the weapons development division, or any other department that would make his leaving the Order a more significant event (as he would be valuable anywhere he went--like the Resistance), but Hollywood Limousine Liberals will re-imagine Star Wars as a platform for Girl Power, but the sequel series' true resistance is to a strong black male involved with a white woman. He has to be a clown

Further, his character had a pathetic puppy dog kind of devotion to her. But despite all that Daisy Ridley and John Boyega have really good chemistry, and try as the films might to place them elsewhere and with other people (Finn with Rose and Rey with either Kylo Ren or Poe) that chemistry still shines through.

At least it did in their reunion hug, where the expression on Rey's face said it all, but I'm crediting Ridley with playing it that way (actress instinct perhaps) more than those behind the camera considering the running mistreatment of the entire Finn/Rey business.

I knew from when I first heard about Rose that they were going to place her with Finn to move him away from Rey. And that’s just what TLJ did, but in such an awkward way that didn’t sell the incipient relationship well at all. She starts out gushing over Finn, then loses faith in him and stuns him, and vacillates between bossing him around and crushing on him. I even thought her saving him on Crait was a selfish act that didn’t allow his arc to be completed. On Crait he had finally shed his fear of the First Order and was ready to die for something, a cause, perhaps for the first time in his life. But Rose had to interrupt that. She couldn’t allow that.

The suicide block was this scattered film's way of pushing the idea of her love for Finn when there's nothing in the entire film ever hinting at such emotions. So, yes, Rose's existence was to drop and a ll-too-obvious brick wall between Finn and Rey.

Now Rose is into Finn more than he’s into her. TLJ didn’t excise Finn’s Rey fixation but it dampened it a lot and I got a feeling that it will ice it completely in Episode IX, as they likely grow the Finn/Rose relationship

...which is the most unbelievable "union" in franchise history. It simply does not have a motivator or framework at all.

and Finn and Rey might even have a moment when they realize it’s better to just be friends.

Yes. Its the Supergirl TV series all over again.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

So instead of referencing the provable existence of ESB’s many mixed reviews, we should rely on your anecdote about your memories from 30 years ago? That sounds...reliable.

Yet, from your reply, it appears you're wiling to accept the initial, anecdotal post which started this conversation?

TLJ is today's ESB.

ESB was definitely not universally loved when it was released. But 37 years later, it's regarded as one of the best of the franchise.

Kor

I need not provide a list of mixed reactions from some critics, when that's readily available in the print publications from the era and online, but no one can truly compare the highly negative opinions of TLJ to the reaction of ESB, which was not only a success, but captured audiences to the degree that its own follow-up (ROTJ) was a greater success than ESB, which is a rare feat for the concluding entry in a film series (which it was in 1983)

Look man. The scripting has never exactly been the franchise strong point, they were always produced with the intent of financial success

George Lucas did not create SW as a cash vehicle. Time and again, he's explained why he wanted to create his "modern day fairy tale" which was an opposing motivation to the copy+paste+milk machine that exploded in the wake of 1977's Star Wars in a way unlike any film history period which preceded it.

 

[Trekkin]

Yet, from your reply, it appears you're wiling to accept the initial, anecdotal post which started this conversation?

‘From my reply’ where? That part where I said that I actually researched and found the contemporary reviews? Shit, I’ve got a book on film criticism which actually includes a few as examples.

Pauline Kael looks like she was the major exception. Whilst her praise wasn’t exactly a small thing*, but she was still just one critic.

*The woman had some impressive fucking standards. Which is why she is always awesome, even when I completely disagree with her.

but no one can truly compare the highly negative opinions of TLJ to the reaction of ESB,

Sure we can.

Thing is, for a fair comparison, you’d have to cut out the Internet whining and stick to published opinions (or audience polls, if you can find them for ESB.) Which of course, someone trying to claim that TLJ was ‘negatively received’ won’t be willing to do.

Note: Although even the RT audience score doesn’t exactly support the ‘negative reaction’ narrative. Even with idiots claiming they botted it, the average rating is still sitting at 3/5.

George Lucas did not create SW as a cash vehicle...

Which is why he made it in his garage, and distributed it for free!

Of course it was created as a fucking cash vehicle. Lucas had been a frigging professional director for years by that point, and Star Wars was him salvaging from the scraps of his actual personal dream project (Flash Gordon.) He just thought Star Wars would be more a cash car, and less of a cash...fleet of Boeings.

Of course, unlike seemingly some, I know that something can be both a cash vehicle and be heartfelt. Dickens was paid by the word, after all.

 

[USS Firefly]

https://decider.com/2017/12/21/mark-hamill-not-my-luke-skywalker

Hamill seems like he still hates this interpretation of the character.

That is sad

 

[Reverend]

Tor.com's Molly Templeton has pretty interesting article about Why Canto Bight is Vital To the Last Jedi.

I absolute agree that the sequence itself is vital to the overall themes and message of the film, but I just felt the way it was integrated felt a little clumsy. Like they knew they needed it in there somewhere, but couldn't find an organic way to make it work with the larger narrative.

 

[DarKush]

If you watch the film again, pay attention to Leia and Holdo's scene where they talk about Poe being a "flyboy"; one of the purposes of that scene is to communicate that the pair were trying to teach Poe a lesson in humility.

I’ve seen the film twice and it’s likely I won’t watch it again in theaters. That’s not how I took the exchanges. I saw that as more of Holdo thinking she knew what kind of person Poe was and that she was not going to let him challenge her authority or interrupt her plans. He had to be reminded of the chain of command. I can see Leia wanting to teach Poe a lesson because of the bond of trust they share with each other. Holdo shares a bond with Leia and not Poe so I think it’s less likely she would be concerned about the feelings or the growth of a friend of a friend, especially under the dire circumstances the Resistance forces were in.